The basque language

[adamo]

It would seem that basque is an isolated pre-indo-European language. I postulate that this language was first created by the men of I-M26; the only present I subclade in basque people's. These original basque were probably overwhelmed by indo-European R1b people's, but we can still find traces of I-M26 in them day; a pre-indo-European people dating to the days of old Europe. Today, I-M26 is only present at appreciable frequencies in central Spain (up to 20% in the Castile region) were these me would probably have taken refuge during the ice age and in the central archaic zones of Sardinia, were on the island a total of 35-40% of males Harbor this lineage. Begin debate here.

 

[Ike]

Were there any more Hg I languages across Europe, before IE "invasion"?
What was the language of Scandinavian or Dinaric I groups before IE showed up?
Any data about that?

 

[sparkey]

Were there any more Hg I languages across Europe, before IE "invasion"?
What was the language of Scandinavian or Dinaric I groups before IE showed up?
Any data about that?

We could probably delve into the Germanic substrate hypothesis while trying to find clues to pre-IE I1 or I2-M223 languages. I don't know if there's anything corresponding for I2a-Din. It's all very speculative anyway.

 

[adamo]

How about Illyrian as a hypothesis for i2a-din tongue.

 

[toyomotor]

Basque is recognised on the one hand as belonging to the Celtic "family", but on the other hand it is a unique language. How or why it remained isolated in a small part of Spain, I don't know. Perhaps the answer may be in a book that I've just started reading, entitled The Horse, The Wheel and Language by David W. Anthony.

 

[adamo]

Nonsense. Basque is a pre-indo-European tongue, not "partially" Celtic.

 

[Ike]

We could probably delve into the Germanic substrate hypothesis while trying to find clues to pre-IE I1 or I2-M223 languages. I don't know if there's anything corresponding for I2a-Din. It's all very speculative anyway.

This is the first time I hear about this theory, but that was always my intuitive opinion

How about Illyrian as a hypothesis for i2a-din tongue.

Well they say Illyrian was IE, either centum or satem, opinions are divided.
That sould mean that Illyrians ( if they were I2a-Din ) spoke some other pre-IE langauge, before Illyrian?


If this was their path through which Hg I entered Europe some 20-30 kya, that could have been some language related with Semitic ones? Or related to languages Hg J people spoke at that time?

In the end we get back to Book of Genesis (Table of nation and story of Babel) and this map

 

[adamo]

The evidence backing Illyrian as indo-European is very weak; it can as of now almost be considered as assumption. No there was no Semitic linguistic similarity, those days were long gone by the time the Illyrians sprang up.

 

[Ike]

Oh, I wasn't aware that it is not 100% sure Illyrian was IE. Why are we then fighting about it being centum or satem on the other thread ... :facepalm:

OK if Illyrian is (or we just assume that) not IE, and if not related with language of Hg J, then old Hg I inhabitants of Europe must have invented their own language which was used from ~ 20 kya up to the arrival of IE people, and Basque language could represent local remnants of that language?

I once had an idea that Illyrian was a hybrid of that old-European and Phoenician language, since they were the ones to colonize coasts of Adriatic. They may have spread their linguistic influence all the way to Catalonia and even Basque. After all Bilbo and Biblos sound similar

Source: "Early Phoenician (or proto-Phoenician) sailors may have delivered founding populations of the Cardium Pottery Neolithic migration past the Aegean to the southern coast of Europe as suggested in the following map. The earliest Impressed Ware sites, dating to 6400-6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC. Northward and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal B.C., which indicates a rapid spread of Cardial and related cultures: 2,000 km from the gulf of Genoa to the estuary of the Mondego in probably no more than 100–200 years."

 

[Sile]

What is Basque reference with Galician

I ask because there a 13th, 14th and 15th century documents in Montova Italy ( northern Italy) which is referred to as a form of galician .........it could be basque is what I am checking

 

[John123]

No there is no Phoenician link to either the Illyrian or basque tongues both represented by I2a men (of two differing clades) I-M26 for basque and I-M243 for Illyrian. Sorry for the account change guys, lebrok or Maciamo blocked my old one (adamo), which had just been promoted to emperor.

 

[Sile]

Oh, I wasn't aware that it is not 100% sure Illyrian was IE. Why are we then fighting about it being centum or satem on the other thread ... :facepalm:

OK if Illyrian is (or we just assume that) not IE, and if not related with language of Hg J, then old Hg I inhabitants of Europe must have invented their own language which was used from ~ 20 kya up to the arrival of IE people, and Basque language could represent local remnants of that language?

I once had an idea that Illyrian was a hybrid of that old-European and Phoenician language, since they were the ones to colonize coasts of Adriatic. They may have spread their linguistic influence all the way to Catalonia and even Basque. After all Bilbo and Biblos sound similar

Source: "Early Phoenician (or proto-Phoenician) sailors may have delivered founding populations of the Cardium Pottery Neolithic migration past the Aegean to the southern coast of Europe as suggested in the following map. The earliest Impressed Ware sites, dating to 6400-6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC. Northward and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal B.C., which indicates a rapid spread of Cardial and related cultures: 2,000 km from the gulf of Genoa to the estuary of the Mondego in probably no more than 100–200 years."

Unless Illyrian was a dialect/sub group of Raetic script which also involves , venetic, lepontic, camunic , liburnic and noric. These where all mostly absorbed into celtic-gallic script and later latin

some linguistics say raetic is semetic.............i do not know

 

[toyomotor]

Nonsense. Basque is a pre-indo-European tongue, not "partially" Celtic.

Would you like to post some references for your opinion?

 

[Ike]

No there is no Phoenician link to either the Illyrian or basque tongues both represented by I2a men (of two differing clades) I-M26 for basque and I-M243 for Illyrian. Sorry for the account change guys, lebrok or Maciamo blocked my old one (adamo), which had just been promoted to emperor.

I know they are Hg I, but it is mostly inland. I've read somewhere that Adriatic islands have substantial Semitic DNA, which corresponds well with what we were taught about first inhabitants - Phoenicians.
http://www.korcula.net/history/mmarelic/remains.htm
"In this way the Greeks developed the carrier trade between prosperous Sicily and points north along both Adriatic coasts. They were following the example of the Phoenician traders who had visited the Dalmatian shores and founded their colonies before the coming of the Greeks."

It also may be wrong. Those E, and J people could be offspring of maritime Greeks, Romans , etc...

Unless Illyrian was a dialect/sub group of Raetic script which also involves , venetic, lepontic, camunic , liburnic and noric. These where all mostly absorbed into celtic-gallic script and later latin
some linguistics say raetic is semetic.............i do not know

It may be that whole East Mediterranean (including Illyrians ) spoke some sort of Semitic language (or a hybrid language) before Dorian invasion?

 

[John123]

Basque is pre-indo-European toto motor. A few islands like Krk have abnormally high J2 and such from either Phoenicians or Greeks but this does not represent the current or ancient landscape of the Dalmatia region of the Balkans on the Adriatic coast in general; like you said, Krk, Istria; a few islands.

 

[MOESAN]

Unless Illyrian was a dialect/sub group of Raetic script which also involves , venetic, lepontic, camunic , liburnic and noric. These where all mostly absorbed into celtic-gallic script and later latin

some linguistics say raetic is semetic.............i do not know

I find all these posts full of imagination - but what have we about the basque language question (already spoken about in older threads, I think, and in other fora)
-non I-Ean language, with a very different syntaxic structure-
-phonetically very different from the western and eastern romance dialects of Iberia, but maybe with some phonetical influence (substrata?) upon northern romance dialects of Iberia (castillan)
- some possible imput in structure of neo-celtic languages
-historically and phonetically some links with more northern lands (old Aquitania until southern Poitou!)
-genetically (swifty diverse autosomals poolings) between western 'mediterraneans' (Sards) and 'north-atlantic' components, with few eastern 'caucasian' and 'arabic-southwest asian' elements, and showing globally a more north and northwestern penetration in Europe than 'sardinian', depending on the ways of pooling: old even if rare components in North until Finland -
the HLA analysis show links with North Atlantic populations, with West-Central Europe populations, with other iberic populations and Sardinians and a few links even with Algerians of Alger: ( the older components of AFN???)
- strong Y-R1b domination (with 18% R-L145/L21) upon a Y-I2a1 minority
-I would tempted to say: rather and ancient enough population, at least of Mesolithic origin for the most, with some paleolithic remnants in female DNA - even the 'mediterranean' elements could correspond to a first wave preceding true Neolithic there but WE KNOW BY ARCHEOLOGY AND SKELETONS STUDIES THEY RECEIVED A TASTE OF MEGALITHIC PEOPLE AUTOSOMALS GENES AT NEOLITHIC (not too much the Cardial people ones, rather subsequent wave akin to Long Barrows people, the result being a higher statured type of higher face than other neolithic so called 'mediterraneans') >> changes compared to bones structure of the Azilean preceding people -
- no evident link with any non I-Ean known language of today: some unprecise similtudes with some Caucasus groups of Language, and also with SIberian languages according to the different interpretations
- evocated possible presence of proto-basque as substrata in today Finnic language of Saami (Lapps) -

as we know language shift can occur during history we cannot be sure the basic ancient basque people did not take a new language from people came through Mediterranea... but the supposed extension of a proto-basque far to North seems discarding this last hypothesis...
all that troubles me and I made some hypothesis in other threads concerning R1b, basque language and a northern trail - Maciamo has other thoughts -

I think, no offense, this thread is doing "dobble" with other threads and its place would be in LINGUISTIC
have a good night all