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Thread: Late Hallstatt/early La Tène mtDNA

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    Late Hallstatt/early La Tène mtDNA

    a new paper ( 2014) states the following mtdna ( 10 graves ) but they fail to test the males for ydna


    2 x K1*
    I1a
    H
    V
    K1a
    H14a
    H11a
    HV
    U5a1

    Social differentiation and land use at an Early Iron Age “princely seat”: bioarchaeological investigations at the Glauberg (Germany)

    Abstract

    Excavations at the late Hallstatt/early La Tène (6th–4th century BC) “princely seat” of the Glauberg (Hesse, Germany) revealed exceptionally furnished graves in monumental mounds, simple inhumations in associated ditches and non-normative burials of up to eight individuals in conical storage pits. The study presented here addresses bioarchaeological characteristics of these burials and their implications for social differentiation and the sphere of influence of the “princely seat”. It includes osteological, aDNA, and multi-isotope analyses of 27 human individuals and faunal remains. One of the outstandingly rich graves (tumulus 1/grave 1) contained the skeleton of a young man (the “prince”) who consumed a superior diet based on C3 plants that also included considerable amounts of animal protein. The oxygen isotope composition of his enamel is characteristic for the study area, while the strontium isotope data reflect connections beyond the near environs of the “princely seat” and a conceivable non-local origin. The individuals in the conical pits had numerous joint lesions, indicating a strenuous lifestyle. They lack evidence for maternal relationships and differ from the “prince” and other Iron Age burials due to substantial millet consumption and rather low shares of animal protein. Their heterogeneous strontium isotope ratios suggest connections to the western Wetterau area, where settlements may have formed the economic hinterland of the Glauberg hillfort. The results reflect both the role of the “princely seat” in the wider regional context and Early Iron Age social complexity.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    Is there a link to this study?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Is there a link to this study?
    I found it via a friend who sent it to me via here

    http://www.researchgate.net/publicat..._%28Germany%29

    i have not tested the site

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Knipper et al 2014 -
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05440313003324

    But its not Germanic - its Keltic (Hallstatt/early LaTene);
    Glauberg is the site of the famous Keltenfürst;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Knipper et al 2014 -
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05440313003324

    But its not Germanic - its Keltic (Hallstatt/early LaTene);
    Glauberg is the site of the famous Keltenfürst;
    so the claim is Kelts where more north than what people thought , because Hesse is basically central Germany on the east side of the Rhine river....unsure if it borders the Rhine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    so the claim is Kelts where more north than what people thought , because Hesse is basically central Germany on the east side of the Rhine river....unsure if it borders the Rhine
    That is actually what people have been thinking for a long time now;
    The Germanic/proto-Germanic peoples at this time/stage of the Iron-age were still restricted to the Jastorf culture zone and other groups much further North; With Jastorf however being greatly influenced by Hallstatt and early LaTene;


    The Germanic expansion further south to Main and Danube occurred later (def. completed by Roman times - 1st cen BC); Glauberg north of the Main in the 6th-4th cen BC was still all Keltic of the later-Hallstatt/early-LaTene zone;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    That is actually what people have been thinking for a long time now;
    The Germanic/proto-Germanic peoples at this time/stage of the Iron-age were still restricted to the Jastorf culture zone and other groups much further North; With Jastorf however being greatly influenced by Hallstatt and early LaTene;


    The Germanic expansion further south to Main and Danube occurred later (def. completed by Roman times - 1st cen BC); Glauberg north of the Main in the 6th-4th cen BC was still all Keltic of the later-Hallstatt/early-LaTene zone;
    Do you realise the big picture we have with these finds!

    The story of celts on the baltic sea up to gdansk is possible to be part of Lusatian culture can be correct especially noting that aseti people speak the same as britons ( as per historians)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Do you realise the big picture we have with these finds!

    The story of celts on the baltic sea up to gdansk is possible to be part of Lusatian culture can be correct especially noting that aseti people speak the same as britons ( as per historians


    That's what I mentioned long time ago about Veneti, that it was possible that they were of Celtic origin. You were always telling us that Aesty were a Baltic people, like Prussians or Lithuanians. Did you change your mind?

    It is not sure if the domain of Celts was reaching the Baltic Sea. We know almost for certain that they occupied region of Silesia and Poland Major. The name of amber trade post Kalisz (latin Kalis) seems to be of Celtic origin.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 18-01-14 at 08:48.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    [QUOTE=LeBrok;424647]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Do you realise the big picture we have with these finds!

    That's what I mentioned long time ago about Veneti, that it was possible that they were of Celtic origin. You were always telling us that Aesty were a Baltic people, like Prussians or Lithuanians. Did you change your mind?

    It is not sure if the domain of Celts was reaching the Baltic Sea. We know almost for certain that they occupied region of Silesia and Poland Major. The name of amber trade post Kalisz (latin Kalis) seems to be of Celtic origin.
    When did you make this mention?

    The latest I got was that the Aesti and Venedi where the exact same people, but referenced differently by different ancient historians. They overlapped each other in the same area at the same time.

    The aestii are not modern estonians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    When did you make this mention?
    The latest I got was that the Aesti and Venedi where the exact same people, but referenced differently by different ancient historians. They overlapped each other in the same area at the same time.
    The aestii are not modern estonians.
    From my posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Otherwise, so far we don't have enough info to get right conclusion, even for a close guess. Baltic Veneti could be Slavic, Germanic, Celtic or Baltic tribe. Who knows, maybe a mixture of all 4.
    I was trying to find subclads of Normandy but there was nothing I could find.
    If Baltic Veneti where R1b/Celtic than U152 might be common marker for them and Veneti in Italy, but not for Normandy. So Veneti could explain U152 in Western Poland.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I wonder if Veneti/Venedi/Venethi (current Poland) are not the off-shot of La Tene culture. There are neighbors of Celts of Czech area and the timing is right.

    From your posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    How did the prussians evolve around the territory around Memel and the Vistula .
    Where these Ancient prussians, Vandals or Goths that assimilated the Aestii, Venedi and Rugii and other baltic tribes?
    the Vistula VENEDI are from the baltic around pommerianarea , there brothers where the sklavani who resisted north of old Prussia and started to migrate AFTER the goths migration from Sweden/gotland
    Since investigating the Pommerains, I came across documentation, that basically states that the Baltic venedi where not the venedae or the Venthi.
    The baltic veneti living on the coast next to the aestui had disappeared by 100AD, the Venedae, according to this source was the modern lithuanians. Since the Aestui where the modern Estonians, the source placing the venedae north of them ( that is north of the old town of memel ) seems to fit with the Livonian area
    while Baltic venedi spoke an old galidian language ( which formed baltic prusian later on ), on another post
    And no this is not my guess, I was purely indicating this part of the statement because many people think all venetic's spoke the same language....and I do not refer only to the eupedia thread but others as well.
    If you dislike all the link I attach be them right or wrong, then blame the writers and not me. Who are you to judge what is right or was is wrong. It up to each individual to find out. In regards to the link, even though it is 360 pages long and makes sense in cases, I do not believe it.
    In regards to the baltic venedi, I believe they where a baltic people most likely a branch of the lithuanians, lats, kars or samogian people. HGs today prove they are finnic ( thats against what I think)
    Last edited by LeBrok; 19-01-14 at 02:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    From me posts.





    From your posts.
    ok

    well, the celts do fill the void of czech/poland prior to germanics and slavs entering with this paper.........but balts should be already there.
    maybe only a celtic trading centre on the baltic sea could be a reality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Do you realise the big picture we have with these finds!

    The story of celts on the baltic sea up to gdansk is possible to be part of Lusatian culture can be correct especially noting that aseti people speak the same as britons ( as per historians)
    there is a current study started late 2013 in Oslo in regards to Pre-Proto-Germanic people

    Basically stating ( if i read it correctly), that these pre-germanics came from the usatovo culture and migrated towards the east-baltic area before moving to scandinavia ..time frame between 3300-2600BC.

    This would mean celtic expansion in central Germany could have been further north.......depends on how old celtic is I suppose.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Do you realise the big picture we have with these finds!

    The story of celts on the baltic sea up to gdansk is possible to be part of Lusatian culture can be correct especially noting that aseti people speak the same as britons ( as per historians)
    The Lusatian-culture is a branch/group of the Urnfield-complex;
    The Keltic Hallstatt [C/D] emerged from the proto-Keltic Hallstatt [A/B Urnfield]; The Urnfield-complex was a much broader Indo-European complex out which more distinct cultures/branches emerged from;

    And passages from Tacitus about the Aestii nations (Balts) speaking a tongue closer to the Britons (Kelts/Belgae) simply illustrates the broader Indo-European realm of both branches; During the Iron-age there is a strong influence/presence from Jutland/Jastorf in the Przeworsk culture - in union with LaTene;

    The Lichtenstein cave (mtDNA) results were from the Unstrut-group of the Urnfield-complex (more East & North than Glauberg) and several centuries earlier than Glauberg (Hallstatt/LaTene); The mtDNA results of the 36 corpses were H (47%/17corpses); U (25%/9corpese) of which 5corpses U5b; T (14%/5corpses) of which all T2; J (14%/5corpses) of which 1 J1b1; Comparing that to the 10 graves of Glauberg results than it does show a diff. in female population and lineages - as expected in the concept of Indo-European expansion; The Y-DNA results would have been great and helpful for that picture given that Lichtenstein was tested 12x I-M170 2x R1a 1x R1b-U106;

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    a friend sent me this.....german-Bohemian society data............unsure if translation is correct



    For the German language readers, here is the original German text.
    *Nach neuesten DNA-Analysen müssen offensichtlich althergebrachte Geschichtsbilder revidiert werden. Viel dazu haben die Völkerwanderungen des XX. Jahrhundert beigetragen. Demnach sind heute 45 % der Deutschen (ohne heutige Einwanderer), keltischer und nur 25 % germanischer Herkunft (väterlicherseits sogar nur 6 % eines germanischen Ursprungs). 30 % der Deutschen stammen von Osteuropäern (20 % Slawen und 10 % Andere) ab. Die Bevölkerungen in Polen (60 % Germanen und 32 % Slawen) und der Tschechischen Republik (50 % Germanen und 42 % Slawen) weisen einen deutlich höheren Anteil germanischer Wurzeln als die Deutschen selbst. Offensichtlich sind viele ostgermanische Stämme doch nicht ausgewandert und schon gar nicht ausgestorben, sondern mit der Zeit nur polonisiert worden. Lediglich die ostgermanischen Sprachen sind mit der Zeit ausgestorben. Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren.*
    German-Bohemian Heritage Society

    The results of most recent DNA analyzes will have to make revisions to commonly known history. Today, Germans (without more recent foreign immigrants) are of 45% Celtic origin and only 25% of Germanic origin. (From the father's side only 6% Germanic.) Thirty percent (30%) of all Germans have their origin in Eastern Europeans with a mix of 20% Slavic and 10% other tribes. The population in Poland is 60% Germanic and 32% Slavic, and in the Czech Republic 50% Germanic and 42% Slavic, in fact they represent a higher Germanic heritage than the Germans themselves.
    Apparently, East Germanic tribes never migrated and never died out (in Eastern areas) but have gradually been polonized during which time all East Germanic languages were lost.

    Unsure If this is legit. but it makes sense if the area of central germany was infested with celtic tribes.....the germanics would have moved first into East-Germanic lands and further proof is east-germanic area is the oldest germanic language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    a friend sent me this.....german-Bohemian society data............unsure if translation is correct



    For the German language readers, here is the original German text.
    *Nach neuesten DNA-Analysen müssen offensichtlich althergebrachte Geschichtsbilder revidiert werden. Viel dazu haben die Völkerwanderungen des XX. Jahrhundert beigetragen. Demnach sind heute 45 % der Deutschen (ohne heutige Einwanderer), keltischer und nur 25 % germanischer Herkunft (väterlicherseits sogar nur 6 % eines germanischen Ursprungs). 30 % der Deutschen stammen von Osteuropäern (20 % Slawen und 10 % Andere) ab. Die Bevölkerungen in Polen (60 % Germanen und 32 % Slawen) und der Tschechischen Republik (50 % Germanen und 42 % Slawen) weisen einen deutlich höheren Anteil germanischer Wurzeln als die Deutschen selbst. Offensichtlich sind viele ostgermanische Stämme doch nicht ausgewandert und schon gar nicht ausgestorben, sondern mit der Zeit nur polonisiert worden. Lediglich die ostgermanischen Sprachen sind mit der Zeit ausgestorben. Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren.*
    German-Bohemian Heritage Society

    The results of most recent DNA analyzes will have to make revisions to commonly known history. Today, Germans (without more recent foreign immigrants) are of 45% Celtic origin and only 25% of Germanic origin. (From the father's side only 6% Germanic.) Thirty percent (30%) of all Germans have their origin in Eastern Europeans with a mix of 20% Slavic and 10% other tribes. The population in Poland is 60% Germanic and 32% Slavic, and in the Czech Republic 50% Germanic and 42% Slavic, in fact they represent a higher Germanic heritage than the Germans themselves.
    Apparently, East Germanic tribes never migrated and never died out (in Eastern areas) but have gradually been polonized during which time all East Germanic languages were lost.

    Unsure If this is legit. but it makes sense if the area of central germany was infested with celtic tribes.....the germanics would have moved first into East-Germanic lands and further proof is east-germanic area is the oldest germanic language.

    no such thing as east germanic, it was made as an excuse story for Germans to invade Poland


    What i believe is that Germanic culture is made from Celtic+Slavic+Baltic mix, a melting pot in central and central-north Europe

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    Celtic+ Slavic+ Scandinav mix with Celtic predominance and lesser Slavic/Scandinav elements of which Scandinav is more present than Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    Celtic+ Slavic+ Scandinav mix with Celtic predominance and lesser Slavic/Scandinav elements of which Scandinav is more present than Slavic.

    If you actually read, what they call germanic admix is probably scandinavian one, and its only 6% by male lines in germans.


    That Scando admix is probably determined by Baltic or Finnish influence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    no such thing as east germanic, it was made as an excuse story for Germans to invade Poland


    What i believe is that Germanic culture is made from Celtic+Slavic+Baltic mix, a melting pot in central and central-north Europe
    advise the historians, that Burgundians, vandals etc are not east-germanic tribes...............let me know how it turns out!

    On another study being conducted by the university of Oslo, early papers state the Germanics began form the Usatovo culture ( i think its modern moldovia)...........i will keep you advised

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    advise the historians, that Burgundians, vandals etc are not east-germanic tribes...............let me know how it turns out!

    On another study being conducted by the university of Oslo, early papers state the Germanics began form the Usatovo culture ( i think its modern moldovia)...........i will keep you advised

    yeah about that, Vandals in medieval days were considered as Slavs, but hey, 19. century german romanticism made them Scandinavian origins, like Goths.


    Germans in south poland, yeah, while most of east germany towns have names slavic origin.


    Also word GERMAN isnt German at all, but latin exonym, and certainly does not specify specific ethnicity

    From Latin Germania, probably meaning "neighbor".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    yeah about that, Vandals in medieval days were considered as Slavs, but hey, 19. century german romanticism made them Scandinavian origins, like Goths.


    Germans in south poland, yeah, while most of east germany towns have names slavic origin.


    Also word GERMAN isnt German at all, but latin exonym, and certainly does not specify specific ethnicity

    From Latin Germania, probably meaning "neighbor".
    The Goths (specifically the Ostrogoths/Greuthungi) spoke a Germanic language;
    As is clearly manifested by the Gothic literature [Codex Argenteus] itself;

    Vaterunser/Lord's Prayer in Gothic;
    http://www.prayer.su/gothic/image-2/...-prayer.su.gif

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    yeah about that, Vandals in medieval days were considered as Slavs, but hey, 19. century german romanticism made them Scandinavian origins, like Goths.
    Its not the 19th century German romanticism but Jordanes, actually.

    By the way, the classical authors (Pliny, Tacitus) consider the Vandals (as with the Burgundians and Goths) to be Germanic.

    Germans in south poland, yeah, while most of east germany towns have names slavic origin.
    This is true, but this is a product of the Migration Period. Before the Migration Period, the Proto-Slavs presumably lived in eastern Europe (approximately what is today eastern Poland, Belarus, and the NW Ukraine), but they did not have any direct contact with the Greeks or the Romans before the Migration Period. Its very clear that the speakers of Proto-Slavic absorbed a large amount of Germanic-speakers (and before that, had a prolonged period of contact with Germanic-speakers), in particular terminology for agriculture, cattle-keeping and trade.

    Also word GERMAN isnt German at all, but latin exonym, and certainly does not specify specific ethnicity

    From Latin Germania, probably meaning "neighbor".
    Yes, it probably means originally 'neighbour', but the word is probably Celtic in origin (compare it with Irish 'gearr' - meaning short, and Welsh 'ger' - meaning 'near').

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Its not the 19th century German romanticism but Jordanes, actually.

    By the way, the classical authors (Pliny, Tacitus) consider the Vandals (as with the Burgundians and Goths) to be Germanic.



    This is true, but this is a product of the Migration Period. Before the Migration Period, the Proto-Slavs presumably lived in eastern Europe (approximately what is today eastern Poland, Belarus, and the NW Ukraine), but they did not have any direct contact with the Greeks or the Romans before the Migration Period. Its very clear that the speakers of Proto-Slavic absorbed a large amount of Germanic-speakers (and before that, had a prolonged period of contact with Germanic-speakers), in particular terminology for agriculture, cattle-keeping and trade.



    Yes, it probably means originally 'neighbour', but the word is probably Celtic in origin (compare it with Irish 'gearr' - meaning short, and Welsh 'ger' - meaning 'near').
    So literally, the 'near-men'?
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    yeah about that, Vandals in medieval days were considered as Slavs, but hey, 19. century german romanticism made them Scandinavian origins, like Goths.


    Germans in south poland, yeah, while most of east germany towns have names slavic origin.


    Also word GERMAN isnt German at all, but latin exonym, and certainly does not specify specific ethnicity

    From Latin Germania, probably meaning "neighbor".
    Can you point us to the sources of your claim? Otherwise it is nothing more than 20. century slavic romanticism.
    Vandals as well could have been a conglomeration of different tribes and might have had some Slavic, Sarmatian or Venetdic (Baltic?) input. However the dominant part was of East Germanic, and for that reason their language was of Germanic kind and they were arian christians (same as Goths).

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    GERMANI is an exonym given in the Greek and Roman texts (prob. from Keltic) and assigned to the tribes the Romans classified based on common characteristics;

    The German term DEUTSCH stems from:
    ahd. diutisc / old-saxon thiudisk / gothic adverb Þeodiskō heathen/ proto-Germanic *þiudiskaz
    Indo-European substantive *teuta;

    Meaning is simply belonging to a group / a group / a people;

    One manuscript that collectively uses the term is the 14th cen - Sachsenspiegel [III 53 § 1]
    http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/.../pfalzgraf.htm
    - iewelk düdesch lant hevet sinen palenzgreven: Sassen, Beieren, Vranken unde Svaven.
    - Every German land has its Pfalzgrafen: Saxony, Bavaria, Franken and Swabia;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    yeah about that, Vandals in medieval days were considered as Slavs, but hey, 19. century german romanticism made them Scandinavian origins, like Goths.


    Germans in south poland, yeah, while most of east germany towns have names slavic origin.


    Also word GERMAN isnt German at all, but latin exonym, and certainly does not specify specific ethnicity

    From Latin Germania, probably meaning "neighbor".
    give me some names of some slavic tribes in the area from BC times and I will check with historical data

    regards

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