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Thread: New thoughts on Indo-Europeans in the light of recent data

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once
    Yes they were light skinned but im talking about burn-like-a-vampire pale skin

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

    What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

    I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

    What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

    I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.
    There are many genes responsible for skin, eye, and hair colour. It makes it complicated, but also fascinating.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I assume you meant to say that the R1a tribes remained in the forest-steppe while R1b cattle herders settled the open steppe in the Neolithic.
    Yes, typing mistake, sorry.

    I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that R1b folk were on the steppes, in terms of modern DNA evidence. Although I know you have an explanation for that, I still wonder about it. And it seems to me that J2 must have been a fairly significant par of the IE expansion. I know you've said J2 was probably present, but as a minor player. But how did J2 get there? As part of Maykop?
    Indo-European J2 would have been J2b2. It most likely came from the Balkans (alongside G2a3b1) to the steppe, then blended with R1a and R1b populations. I cannot be sure of that yet. J2b2 could also have come from eastern Anatolia together with R1b. What is certain is that J2b2 and G2a3b1 are minority lineages found in almost all R1a and R1b1b2 populations today, be it in Europe (from Scandinavia to Italy, and from Britain to Russia), Central Asia, Siberia or South Asia. Indian Brahmins belong mostly to R1a, with substantial minorities of J2b2 and G2a3b1. R1b-M269 has also been found among Himalayan Brahmins (Jammu, Nepal). However India is terribly undersampled at the moment and I wouldn't be surprised to find more R1b in the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

    What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

    I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.
    Light eyes = better for hunting in the darkness.

    Light skin = adaption to farming.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    All the Mesolithic hunter gatherers found so far, and Mal'ta, have been black haired, or at least dark brown haired. So was the LBK EEF.

    BTW, does anyone have a link to an image for the Stuttgart skeleton, or cranium at least? We have them for Loschbour, and La Brana, but I haven't seen the one for the EEF woman. Of course, we have Oetzi but that's quite a bit later.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R_BZZam1jl...sbourskull.png
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6...ix81o1_500.jpg

    Also, both the samples above are apparently grouped as WHG in Lazaridis et al. Has anyone analyzed the skulls and found them to be similar?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Another difference is that steppe people had a far more militaristic use of bronze that Near Eastern societies. The contrast is striking when we compare bronze objects from the Maykop culture, in the Northwest Caucasus, with those of the contemporaneous Kura-Araxes culture, in the South Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. While most Kura-Araxes bronzes were functional (e.g. agricultural) and luxury objects, those from Maykop are overwhelmingly weapons (including the world's earliest swords).
    Maykop folks were not really the steppe people and they looked different from the Yamna folks. Maykop folks looked much more like according to the paper below 'Southern Caucasoids of the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia', with other words like modernday Kurdic / 'West Iranic' (Caucaso-Gedrosia-like) people! So it might be possible that R1b picked Gedrosia component in the Maykop region from Maykop people, before they mixed with Yamna folks!
    Analysis of Maikop crania (Kazarnitsky 2010) -> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/...zarnitsky.html

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    I'm wondering if Lazaridis' ANE component (Ancestral North Eurasian) may be descended from the mammoth steppe foragers (as distinct from the southern forest foragers). Some of them waited out the Ice Age around the Black Sea (and some maybe elsewhere). The ones around the Black Sea developed the Indo-European languages. Some but only some of these Indo-European speakers developed into the steppe culture but their military advantage meant they came to be dominant.

    I'm also wondering if the reason the area around the Black Sea was so favored is if the lower sea level meant the light-blue area in this map was all wetlands i.e. lots of fish - like the Baltic later.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_S...uge_hypothesis

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black-sea-hist.png

    Ignoring whether there was a sudden deluge or a gradual one if the light-blue area in the map was high population density wetlands and they gradually or suddenly disappeared that provides pressure for people to either move or adapt a new method of food-getting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    I'm wondering if Lazaridis' ANE component (Ancestral North Eurasian) may be descended from the mammoth steppe foragers (as distinct from the southern forest foragers). Some of them waited out the Ice Age around the Black Sea (and some maybe elsewhere). The ones around the Black Sea developed the Indo-European languages. Some but only some of these Indo-European speakers developed into the steppe culture but their military advantage meant they came to be dominant.

    I'm also wondering if the reason the area around the Black Sea was so favored is if the lower sea level meant the light-blue area in this map was all wetlands i.e. lots of fish - like the Baltic later.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_S...uge_hypothesis

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black-sea-hist.png

    Ignoring whether there was a sudden deluge or a gradual one if the light-blue area in the map was high population density wetlands and they gradually or suddenly disappeared that provides pressure for people to either move or adapt a new method of food-getting.
    Well, they didn't need to go far to find a dry land. When we look at known migrations from Steppes to Central Europe they mostly happened during severe cooling periods, making life very unbearable in dry Steppe. Warm and wet is good, cold and dry sucks big time for demographics and civilizations.

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    there is no such thing as white race white race is already proved to have descended from indian albinos haplogroup R thats why they fled from indias sun to europe there is no such thing as lightening skin for cold adaptation look at all the eskimos and other cold environment people they are all melanated even the polar bear when you shave his skin thats a fact all europeans were desperately trying to hide all the years and by te way there was no higher culture built by albinos

    do not take it as offense or some kind of antiwhite post because i myself am a white european from italian and german ancestry but i can no longer support this lies white people in general spread all over the world

    google realhistoryww and especially their article called "how race is made"

    and also google the story of Sasha Ruseva a gypsy woman who has three albino children and the government wanted to take them away cause the eurocentrists thought she is a white girl and they kidnapped her because europeans deny they are indian albinos and think blue eyes and lack of pigment is natural when its a genetic defect google the blond and blue eyes gorilla snowflake and read something about health and behaviour problems of albino dobermans and also visit stewartsynopsis article called black genetic parent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once
    YES you are right albinism is not limited to any haplogroup it is pread all over the world but the only haplogroup which started to breed exclusively amongst themselves exluding all contact with melanated natural humans was the indian haplogroup R which inbred to keep the albino genes intact thats where racism comes from thats a bulletproof fact which even me as an european of germano romance ancestry must accept... albinos stay albinos only when they keep breeding exclusively amonngst themselves but white skin is not a race it is a genetic defect and spread all over various phenotypes

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    even the original statues of my etruscan ancestors clearly show we were all brown skinned curly haired and far from anglosaxon white race propaganda there was never a highly civilisation built by anglosaxon albinos sorry just google "realhistoryww"

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    The R1b people coming from Mesopotamia/anatolia/gedrosia were among the first farmers and developed pale skin and red hair in response to a shift in diet to vitamin D poor foods.
    No this is simply not true because all farmer cultures in mesopotamia are brwon skinned and this theory does not hold up because blue eyes have oculocutaneous albinism and problems to see in light as well as darkness
    and as food goes this would also mean that the albino gorilla snowflake must have had eaten tons of grains so he became albino with blue eyes thats purely nonsense

    google "stewartsynopsis black genetic parent" who debunked the cold adaptation and food caused light skin theories...

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    The idea of white people(indian albinos) being indigenous europe is laughable, they'd have burnt to death in the 8 months of winter when the rays reflect and burn them or during the summer when the sun doesnt go down.

    Half the climate of Europe modern day europeans is only bearable with sunblock, sun tan lotions, special clothing, modern knowledge, modern medicine and chemotherapy and whites in north europe are still dropping like flies in major cities from sun cancer. 1 in 4 danish women, white danish women, get skin cancer but we are to believe that they were their in ancient times? Take away modern cancer treatment and 1 in 4 danish women die before they even reproduce. Not to mention all the other ones getting cancer from going outdoors without sunblock.

    Whites come from the central asian plains or asian steppes an area near modern day kazakstan. They were able to survive there because it is basically a cold desert (also known as tundra). Where it doesn't snow a whole lot (or rain). Their skin only turned white around 5,500 years ago or 3,500 bc as a result of albino mutation in indians

    The claim of whites getiing white skin from low uv cannot be taken seriously in light of eskimos, nennets and indigenous chilens from artic regions or near artic regions all of whom are dark or dark brown skinned. Further when you compare this to kazakstan which has high uv the claim cannot no longer be believed. Whites are clearly just an albinoid people like this who interbred with each other and moved to somewhere in central asia with consistently low uv.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by trutharian View Post
    there is no such thing as white race white race is already proved to have descended from indian albinos haplogroup R thats why they fled from indias sun to europe there is no such thing as lightening skin for cold adaptation look at all the eskimos and other cold environment people they are all melanated even the polar bear when you shave his skin thats a fact all europeans were desperately trying to hide all the years and by te way there was no higher culture built by albinos

    do not take it as offense or some kind of antiwhite post because i myself am a white european from italian and german ancestry but i can no longer support this lies white people in general spread all over the world

    google realhistoryww and especially their article called "how race is made"

    and also google the story of Sasha Ruseva a gypsy woman who has three albino children and the government wanted to take them away cause the eurocentrists thought she is a white girl and they kidnapped her because europeans deny they are indian albinos and think blue eyes and lack of pigment is natural when its a genetic defect google the blond and blue eyes gorilla snowflake and read something about health and behaviour problems of albino dobermans and also visit stewartsynopsis article called black genetic parent
    Please learn the difference on genetic level between Albinism here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism, and white skin mutation of Europeans, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color. Once you learn that one is not related to another, you can come back and apologise to all the white people, or at least don't hate them so much.

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    firstly i know a lot about genetics, secondly as i said i am white myself so no need to apologyze, and to state that wikipedia is a valuable source for genetic studies is really not serious is it? white skin is for sure no adaptation to cold environment it is an albino mutation and the birth of the so called white race is caused by albinos in india which started to exclusively breed amongst themselves thats why they multiplied in such numbers and could keep their recessive traits it is 100 percent provable ! and some of them got little bit melanin by mixing with native europeans as they moved into europe because they searched an environment where they could survive with their recessive genes this is science not personal opinion or some kind of offensive insulting so to avoid misinterpretations on why i am posting this definitely not out of hatred for any tribe just plain scientific facts... I am really surprised a moderator in a anthropology forum does not know about oculocutaneous albinism tyrosinase defect and the fact that white albinos are getting skin cancer even during winter which denies all theories on cold adaptation(never saw a snowboarder with sunburn) you really should google indian albinos and their haplogroup because it seems you did not study genetics at all

    there are three types of albinism and european albinos have the type 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by trutharian View Post
    The idea of white people(indian albinos) being indigenous europe is laughable, they'd have burnt to death in the 8 months of winter when the rays reflect and burn them or during the summer when the sun doesnt go down.
    How do you explain the fact that europeans can tan and albinos people can't?

    Half the climate of Europe modern day europeans is only bearable with sunblock, sun tan lotions, special clothing, modern knowledge, modern medicine and chemotherapy and whites in north europe are still dropping like flies in major cities from sun cancer. 1 in 4 danish women, white danish women, get skin cancer but we are to believe that they were their in ancient times? Take away modern cancer treatment and 1 in 4 danish women die before they even reproduce. Not to mention all the other ones getting cancer from going outdoors without sunblock.
    How can you explain pail skin Koreans and Japanese? Still albino Indians? What is interesting is that they exist in same latitude as Europeans and have agricultural past. That's a hell of a coincidence, don't you think?!

    Whites come from the central asian plains or asian steppes an area near modern day kazakstan. They were able to survive there because it is basically a cold desert (also known as tundra). Where it doesn't snow a whole lot (or rain). Their skin only turned white around 5,500 years ago or 3,500 bc as a result of albino mutation in indians

    The claim of whites getiing white skin from low uv cannot be taken seriously in light of eskimos, nennets and indigenous chilens from artic regions or near artic regions all of whom are dark or dark brown skinned. Further when you compare this to kazakstan which has high uv the claim cannot no longer be believed. Whites are clearly just an albinoid people like this who interbred with each other and moved to somewhere in central asia with consistently low uv.
    For your information northern peoples like Eskimo consume a lot of raw liver, as hunter-gatherers do. Liver is a storage of Vitamin D3. That's how they get their vitamin D so there is no need for such white skin as European's have.
    Also they are much lighter than Indians. Are they related to Indian albino?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trutharian View Post

    there are three types of albinism and european albinos have the type 2
    Can you explain the discrepancy why white people need several mutations on few genes to be white, and albino type 2 is related only to OCA2 mutation? Where are the other white skin mutation coming from? Obviously not from albinism.

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    as i explained in my eralier potst white indian albinos from haplogroup R which are falsely called white race mixed with brown skinned southerners thats why some of them are able to at least tan a little bit but even they need sunscreen and get cancer even in winter !

    no japanese and chinese are not albinos the japanese emerged from a mixture of white albino huns and ancient brown skinned chinese people but they still have melanin in eyes and skin they are far from being albinos like the anglosaxons and celts which have blue eyes which is a sign of no melanin in the eyes and pale skin which is a clear sign of oculocutaneous albnism type 2!!! ignorance is not bliss as i learned myself from my right wing past mate

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    to answer all your questions just read the material i sent you per private message..

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    Quote Originally Posted by trutharian View Post
    firstly i know a lot about genetics, secondly as i said i am white myself so no need to apologyze, and to state that wikipedia is a valuable source for genetic studies is really not serious is it? white skin is for sure no adaptation to cold environment it is an albino mutation and the birth of the so called white race is caused by albinos in india which started to exclusively breed amongst themselves thats why they multiplied in such numbers and could keep their recessive traits it is 100 percent provable ! and some of them got little bit melanin by mixing with native europeans as they moved into europe because they searched an environment where they could survive with their recessive genes this is science not personal opinion or some kind of offensive insulting so to avoid misinterpretations on why i am posting this definitely not out of hatred for any tribe just plain scientific facts... I am really surprised a moderator in a anthropology forum does not know about oculocutaneous albinism tyrosinase defect and the fact that white albinos are getting skin cancer even during winter which denies all theories on cold adaptation(never saw a snowboarder with sunburn) you really should google indian albinos and their haplogroup because it seems you did not study genetics at all

    there are three types of albinism and european albinos have the type 2
    So your scientific conclusion is that "white-race" are Albinos from India? Sounds exotic;
    The actual scientific term is Caucasoid-race (sub-races Mediterranid/Alpinoid/Iranid/Nordic/Armenoid);

    And whether Europeans are Albinos from India or not the Caucasoid race and its sub-races remain the biological (Anthropological) basis/reality as such; Science (Genetics) has now in the last years made progress (substantial) in order to define the Genetic basis/reality of Pigmentation (Hair/Eyes/Skin) which is one field of Anthropology; So that is the Biological (Anthropological/Genetical) reality of Europe and other parts of the World in which the Caucasoid race exists - whether our for-fazers were Albinos from India or not makes absolutely no diff.;

    PS: Are you that well known Afrocentrist that spooks around in other forums?
    Just with a new identity in this one?

    Some studies on the current situation:
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...72497312001810
    http://www.g3journal.org/content/3/11/2059.full
    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1003912
    http://www.academicjournals.org/arti...uasa%20pdf.pdf
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.long

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    there is no such thing as skin and eyes cold adaptation all who claim this are liars and white supremacists who hide their origins

    Whites cannot reproduce anything but themselves! Through powerful propaganda and indoctrination we have been completely oblivious to what having white skin really means. We have been skillfully mislead to believe that white skin is mankind’s anthropological model and should be coveted. However, recent research paints a picture of white skin that is just the antithesis of what we have been brainwashed to believe. The polar bear analysis that was done by the Discovery Channel helps prove my point. If you shave the hair off a polar bear, the skin beneath is black. In nature the skin of the polar bear is black to absorb as much heat and light as possible to keep the arctic animal warm in its environment. It is also true for the Eskimo (Inuit). Human adaptation remains an insufficiently studied part of climate and climate change. Scientists have tried for years to prove that the environment was responsible for altering heredity.



    Eskimos have brown skin. Eskimos have broad, flat noses. Africans have brown skin. Africans have broad, flat noses. Scientific studies have reported that people are dark because they live near the equator—not because they are Negroid or have a Negroid admixture. There are repeated arguments made by anthropologists when referring to Arabs being brown in color because of the equalitarian closeness. So what about the brownness of skin that occurs in mankind who live the furthest from the equator—the Arctic? Also, the Eskimos’ nose shape does not work to explain temperature-dependencies. Broad, flat noses are more beneficial in hot environments—Oh really!



    Scientifically speaking, Black objects absorb heat very well and also emit heat very well. If heat wasn’t emitted at the same rate as was is absorbed, the black object would just get hotter and hotter until it melted. A black beaker cools down much faster than a shiny beaker that does not absorb or emit heat well at all. That is why snow does not melt in cold weather even when the sun is falling directly on it. All of the incident light energy is reflected away and none (or very little) is absorbed.



    If black absorbs heat and light and white reflects it, how can we say that white people are adapted more to cold environments than warm? That insinuation that white skin is a result of environmental adaptation is the same orthodox dogma that we have been spoon fed for generations, however when subjected to scientific scrutiny it doesn’t hold water. Reports FALSELY SUGGESTED that Senegalese troops during World War I and Ethiopian troops during the Korean War showed higher rates of frostbite and frozen feet in the African soldiers than their European counterparts. The laboratory work of the researchers also suggested that black skin tissue was more prone to cold injury; however white skin also exhibited some damage. After further research the following was indicated: It was SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN that samples of black skin tissue were less vulnerable to cold damage than the lighter European tissue. This does not sound indicative of white skin being more suitable to cold climates.



    Caucasians have a higher concentration of enzyme inhibitors that suppress melanin production, according to Halprin & Ohkawara, 1966. White people also have calcified pineal glands. You may ask how does this imply that white skin is a genetic defect.....The pineal gland secretes melatonin, which activates the pituitary to release M.S.H. (Melanocyte Stimulating Hormone). It is in the melanocytes that melanin (Greek “melas”=black) is produced. Melanin is somewhat analogous to chlorophyll in plants. What a lot of people don’t realize is that melatonin is also related to fertility. Those with pigmented skin have the highest counts of melanocytes in the genitalia and nipples. The pigmentation in these areas can be influenced by sex hormones like estrogens and androgens. During pregnancy, the nipples, face, and abdominal wall become darkened. These areas of increased pigmentation during pregnancy are due to the increase in the production of estrogens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    So your scientific conclusion is that Europeans are Albinos from India? Sounds exotic; To begin with the scientific term is Caucaosid-race (sub-races Mediterranid/Alpinoid/Iranid/Nordic/Armenoid) not "white-race";

    And whether Europeans are Albinos from India or not the Caucasoid race remains the biological (Anthropological) basis/reality;
    Science (Genetics) has now in the last years made progress (substantial) in order to define the Genetic basis/reality of Pigmentation (Hair/Eyes/Skin) which is one field of Anthropology; So that is the Biological (Anthropological/Genetical) reality of Europe and other parts of the World in which the Caucasoid race exists - whether our for-fazers were Albinos from India or not makes absolutely no diff.;
    at least you acknowledge that there never was such thing as a white race this is a good start
    and yes you are right caucasoids are found all over the globe in various shades just in europe the so called nordics are albino caucasoids which is easily provable... and those nordic albinos claim they built all civilisations while in fact before the brwon skinned romans civilised them few hundred years ago they were illiterate nomads originating from russian steppes

    and no i am no afrocentrist i am haplogroup R1b i just akcnowledge truth about my ancestors rather than deny it and try to hide it with nonsense thats all

  24. #49
    Regular Member trutharian's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-02-14
    Posts
    30

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Italy


  25. #50
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by trutharian View Post
    as i explained in my eralier potst white indian albinos from haplogroup R which are falsely called white race mixed with brown skinned southerners thats why some of them are able to at least tan a little bit but even they need sunscreen and get cancer even in winter !
    You failed to explain anything, especially why other white skin mutations exist in white europeans. Even your hypotheses about OCA2 is wrong because albinism type2 is a mulfunction of this gene creating problems with vision. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1232/ Blue eye eropeans have perfectly good visions.

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