New thoughts on Indo-Europeans in the light of recent data

[MOESAN]

What puzzles me is that indo-europeans are europoid ( for the most part ) but they belong to mongoloid paternal lines. How did this come about ?

it is uneasy to assign an autosomal global type to the bearers of a Y-HG + are you not confusing geographical "asian" with phenotypical "mongoloïd"? personally I don't believe either R1a or R1b were at first on the 'mongoloïd' type, but how to be sure concerning remote times?

 

[Alan]

The R1a people were in terms of autosomal composition mostly western hunter gatherers with some Karitiana-like admixture. During the last ice age they took refuge in the Ukraine where they developed several shades of blond hair as a result of sexual selection. They also developed pale skin either to produce more vitamin D or also as a result of sexual selection.

The R1b people coming from Mesopotamia/anatolia/gedrosia were among the first farmers and developed pale skin and red hair in response to a shift in diet to vitamin D poor foods. They entered the steppes via the Caucasus and took wives from the R1a people already living there. This explains the high incedence of blue eyes and blonde hair among R1b people today. They were excellent metal workers. Probably the best in the world at that time.


R1a and R1b propogated pale skin into europe in the neolithic. Almost all of the blue eyes in europe today come from north of the black sea though this is probably not where it originated as 8000 year old western hunter gatherers already had blue eyes.

I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once

 

[ElHorsto]

I cant link to an image because i dont have ten posts yet but do a google search for skin color distribution and you will see that generally the higher the EEF component the darker the skin in europeans.

I don't think that contemporary skin color, lactase tolerance, hair color and other particular traits correlate that much with autosomals, at least within europe. I think these traits are mostly driven quickly by evolutionary selection or drift, even more than haplogroups. This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.

 

[Alan]

I cant link to an image because i dont have ten posts yet but do a google search for skin color distribution and you will see that generally the higher the EEF component the darker the skin in europeans.

Thats today because EEF is more common in South Europe but when EEF and H&G was evenly spread throughout Europe we observed that EEF were lighter skinned. Also modern North Europeans have considerable EEF.

 

[LeBrok]

I don't think that contemporary skin color, lactase tolerance, hair color and other particular traits correlate that much with autosomals, at least within europe. I think these traits are mostly driven quickly by evolutionary selection or drift, even more than haplogroups. This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.

A very good point. If traits are very beneficial for survival they tend to spread very fast, regardless of tribes, haplogroups, and cultures, and quickly settle in areas where are needed the most. Surely for first thousand years after development of beneficial mutation it lingers around tribes of its conception, and going far back in time, we will be able to connect traits for very light skin or lactose persistence, and many other things, to certain tribes and their dominant haplogroups. However after thousands of years these traits have flown through all the tribes, drifted if you will, to the populations in geographical area where they were benefiting people the most. Therefor in this age and time we are unable to correlate these mutation to specific haplogroups. Unless these mutations happen on chromosome Y, or mtdna.

By standard of our knowledge, it is also plausible to say, that the very light skin mutation happened to first farmers going North off Black Sea, due to Northern location and farmer's diet lacking vitamin D. It could have been enhanced by any hunter-gatherer gene flow in this area into farmer's communities. The combination effect of light skinn farmers and light skin mutations of local HGs gave start to much lighter skin.

 

[Vratyas]

I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once

Yes they were light skinned but im talking about burn-like-a-vampire pale skin

 

[Tone]

Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.

 

[LeBrok]

Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.

There are many genes responsible for skin, eye, and hair colour. It makes it complicated, but also fascinating.

 

[Maciamo]

I assume you meant to say that the R1a tribes remained in the forest-steppe while R1b cattle herders settled the open steppe in the Neolithic.

Yes, typing mistake, sorry.

I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that R1b folk were on the steppes, in terms of modern DNA evidence. Although I know you have an explanation for that, I still wonder about it. And it seems to me that J2 must have been a fairly significant par of the IE expansion. I know you've said J2 was probably present, but as a minor player. But how did J2 get there? As part of Maykop?

Indo-European J2 would have been J2b2. It most likely came from the Balkans (alongside G2a3b1) to the steppe, then blended with R1a and R1b populations. I cannot be sure of that yet. J2b2 could also have come from eastern Anatolia together with R1b. What is certain is that J2b2 and G2a3b1 are minority lineages found in almost all R1a and R1b1b2 populations today, be it in Europe (from Scandinavia to Italy, and from Britain to Russia), Central Asia, Siberia or South Asia. Indian Brahmins belong mostly to R1a, with substantial minorities of J2b2 and G2a3b1. R1b-M269 has also been found among Himalayan Brahmins (Jammu, Nepal). However India is terribly undersampled at the moment and I wouldn't be surprised to find more R1b in the future.

 

[Alan]

Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.

Light eyes = better for hunting in the darkness.

Light skin = adaption to farming.

 

[Angela]

All the Mesolithic hunter gatherers found so far, and Mal'ta, have been black haired, or at least dark brown haired. So was the LBK EEF.

BTW, does anyone have a link to an image for the Stuttgart skeleton, or cranium at least? We have them for Loschbour, and La Brana, but I haven't seen the one for the EEF woman. Of course, we have Oetzi but that's quite a bit later.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R_BZZam1jlk/Urwk1uI31XI/AAAAAAAACVM/_LI7YcKEdZU/s1600/Lochsbourskull.png
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6hhq5AnV41qzix81o1_500.jpg

Also, both the samples above are apparently grouped as WHG in Lazaridis et al. Has anyone analyzed the skulls and found them to be similar?

 

[Goga]

Another difference is that steppe people had a far more militaristic use of bronze that Near Eastern societies. The contrast is striking when we compare bronze objects from the Maykop culture, in the Northwest Caucasus, with those of the contemporaneous Kura-Araxes culture, in the South Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. While most Kura-Araxes bronzes were functional (e.g. agricultural) and luxury objects, those from Maykop are overwhelmingly weapons (including the world's earliest swords).

Maykop folks were not really the steppe people and they looked different from the Yamna folks. Maykop folks looked much more like according to the paper below 'Southern Caucasoids of the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia', with other words like modernday Kurdic / 'West Iranic' (Caucaso-Gedrosia-like) people! So it might be possible that R1b picked Gedrosia component in the Maykop region from Maykop people, before they mixed with Yamna folks!
Analysis of Maikop crania (Kazarnitsky 2010) -> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/analysis-of-maikop-crania-kazarnitsky.html

 

[Greying Wanderer]

I'm wondering if Lazaridis' ANE component (Ancestral North Eurasian) may be descended from the mammoth steppe foragers (as distinct from the southern forest foragers). Some of them waited out the Ice Age around the Black Sea (and some maybe elsewhere). The ones around the Black Sea developed the Indo-European languages. Some but only some of these Indo-European speakers developed into the steppe culture but their military advantage meant they came to be dominant.

I'm also wondering if the reason the area around the Black Sea was so favored is if the lower sea level meant the light-blue area in this map was all wetlands i.e. lots of fish - like the Baltic later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black-sea-hist.png

Ignoring whether there was a sudden deluge or a gradual one if the light-blue area in the map was high population density wetlands and they gradually or suddenly disappeared that provides pressure for people to either move or adapt a new method of food-getting.

 

[LeBrok]

I'm wondering if Lazaridis' ANE component (Ancestral North Eurasian) may be descended from the mammoth steppe foragers (as distinct from the southern forest foragers). Some of them waited out the Ice Age around the Black Sea (and some maybe elsewhere). The ones around the Black Sea developed the Indo-European languages. Some but only some of these Indo-European speakers developed into the steppe culture but their military advantage meant they came to be dominant.

I'm also wondering if the reason the area around the Black Sea was so favored is if the lower sea level meant the light-blue area in this map was all wetlands i.e. lots of fish - like the Baltic later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black-sea-hist.png

Ignoring whether there was a sudden deluge or a gradual one if the light-blue area in the map was high population density wetlands and they gradually or suddenly disappeared that provides pressure for people to either move or adapt a new method of food-getting.

Well, they didn't need to go far to find a dry land. When we look at known migrations from Steppes to Central Europe they mostly happened during severe cooling periods, making life very unbearable in dry Steppe. Warm and wet is good, cold and dry sucks big time for demographics and civilizations.

 

[trutharian]

there is no such thing as white race white race is already proved to have descended from indian albinos haplogroup R thats why they fled from indias sun to europe there is no such thing as lightening skin for cold adaptation look at all the eskimos and other cold environment people they are all melanated even the polar bear when you shave his skin thats a fact all europeans were desperately trying to hide all the years and by te way there was no higher culture built by albinos

do not take it as offense or some kind of antiwhite post because i myself am a white european from italian and german ancestry but i can no longer support this lies white people in general spread all over the world

google realhistoryww and especially their article called "how race is made"

and also google the story of Sasha Ruseva a gypsy woman who has three albino children and the government wanted to take them away cause the eurocentrists thought she is a white girl and they kidnapped her because europeans deny they are indian albinos and think blue eyes and lack of pigment is natural when its a genetic defect google the blond and blue eyes gorilla snowflake and read something about health and behaviour problems of albino dobermans and also visit stewartsynopsis article called black genetic parent

 

[trutharian]

I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once

YES you are right albinism is not limited to any haplogroup it is pread all over the world but the only haplogroup which started to breed exclusively amongst themselves exluding all contact with melanated natural humans was the indian haplogroup R which inbred to keep the albino genes intact thats where racism comes from thats a bulletproof fact which even me as an european of germano romance ancestry must accept... albinos stay albinos only when they keep breeding exclusively amonngst themselves but white skin is not a race it is a genetic defect and spread all over various phenotypes

 

[trutharian]

even the original statues of my etruscan ancestors clearly show we were all brown skinned curly haired and far from anglosaxon white race propaganda there was never a highly civilisation built by anglosaxon albinos sorry just google "realhistoryww"

 

[trutharian]

The R1b people coming from Mesopotamia/anatolia/gedrosia were among the first farmers and developed pale skin and red hair in response to a shift in diet to vitamin D poor foods.

No this is simply not true because all farmer cultures in mesopotamia are brwon skinned and this theory does not hold up because blue eyes have oculocutaneous albinism and problems to see in light as well as darkness
and as food goes this would also mean that the albino gorilla snowflake must have had eaten tons of grains so he became albino with blue eyes thats purely nonsense

google "stewartsynopsis black genetic parent" who debunked the cold adaptation and food caused light skin theories...

 

[trutharian]

The idea of white people(indian albinos) being indigenous europe is laughable, they'd have burnt to death in the 8 months of winter when the rays reflect and burn them or during the summer when the sun doesnt go down.

Half the climate of Europe modern day europeans is only bearable with sunblock, sun tan lotions, special clothing, modern knowledge, modern medicine and chemotherapy and whites in north europe are still dropping like flies in major cities from sun cancer. 1 in 4 danish women, white danish women, get skin cancer but we are to believe that they were their in ancient times? Take away modern cancer treatment and 1 in 4 danish women die before they even reproduce. Not to mention all the other ones getting cancer from going outdoors without sunblock.

Whites come from the central asian plains or asian steppes an area near modern day kazakstan. They were able to survive there because it is basically a cold desert (also known as tundra). Where it doesn't snow a whole lot (or rain). Their skin only turned white around 5,500 years ago or 3,500 bc as a result of albino mutation in indians

The claim of whites getiing white skin from low uv cannot be taken seriously in light of eskimos, nennets and indigenous chilens from artic regions or near artic regions all of whom are dark or dark brown skinned. Further when you compare this to kazakstan which has high uv the claim cannot no longer be believed. Whites are clearly just an albinoid people like this who interbred with each other and moved to somewhere in central asia with consistently low uv.

 

[LeBrok]

there is no such thing as white race white race is already proved to have descended from indian albinos haplogroup R thats why they fled from indias sun to europe there is no such thing as lightening skin for cold adaptation look at all the eskimos and other cold environment people they are all melanated even the polar bear when you shave his skin thats a fact all europeans were desperately trying to hide all the years and by te way there was no higher culture built by albinos

do not take it as offense or some kind of antiwhite post because i myself am a white european from italian and german ancestry but i can no longer support this lies white people in general spread all over the world

google realhistoryww and especially their article called "how race is made"

and also google the story of Sasha Ruseva a gypsy woman who has three albino children and the government wanted to take them away cause the eurocentrists thought she is a white girl and they kidnapped her because europeans deny they are indian albinos and think blue eyes and lack of pigment is natural when its a genetic defect google the blond and blue eyes gorilla snowflake and read something about health and behaviour problems of albino dobermans and also visit stewartsynopsis article called black genetic parent

Please learn the difference on genetic level between Albinism here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism, and white skin mutation of Europeans, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color. Once you learn that one is not related to another, you can come back and apologise to all the white people, or at least don't hate them so much.