E - V13 : slavery in the Balkans

[bicicleur]

I have a theory : E - V13 arrived as slaves in the Balkans

By 7000 years ago, the Balkans were the most advanced civilization :
they had copper and gold mines and had advanced metalworking thecnology
the population grew very fast
maybe they invented the plough to increas food production
maybe they even had the first writing system :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets

They had also fortified towns, alltough they were not threatened by tribes from abroad :

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11...own-near-salt/

I think there was much social inequality, and they had slaves.
The slaves were E - V13 and they were imported from Lybia, north-Africa

Cardium pottery spread 8000 years ago in the eastern Mediteranean (500 years later also in the western Meditaranean)
They were fisherman (at sea) , farmers and traders.
They traded obsidian, als with Libya, north-Africa.

http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR22%20-%20AccChemRes%202002.pdf

After the period of the 'green Sahara' , noth-Africa became progressively more arid.
I think E-V13 were cattle herders becoming increasingly desperate because of the aridification.
Some E-V13 who still owned cattle made it to Southern Italy, or even to Catalonia, Spain, as proven by ancinet DNA (see the Eupedia section for that)
But the majority owned nothing and were sold or sold themselves as slaves to work in the Balkan mines or fields for food production.

I know this is a highly speculative theory.

I would like your feedback on that.

[MOESAN]

Slaves, I suppose, rarely become a prominent or high % male HG in a population - just an intuition

[bicicleur]

Slaves, I suppose, rarely become a prominent or high % male HG in a population - just an intuition

yes, that's right,
but it just so happened, 6000 years ago the Balkans were invaded by Indo-Europeans who had cattle, but who knew notting about farming.
the whole country got desintegrated, but if you were a slave then, and you knew how to work the land, I guess this was rather good news

[Ike]

I have a theory : E - V13 arrived as slaves in the Balkans

Where from? How did they end up in Spain 7 kya?
Are there any deeper subclades among E-V13, that could make a distinction?

[bicicleur]

Where from? How did they end up in Spain 7 kya?
Are there any deeper subclades among E-V13, that could make a distinction?

from northern Tunesia

http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR2...Res%202002.pdf

northeren Tunesia was also part of the obsidian trade
these traders traded not only obsidian, but also slaves

Some E-V13 who still owned cattle were not sold as slaves but made it to Southern Italy, or even to Catalonia, Spain

I guess their status was something like the Jews in Egypt
That is how they survived as a tribe.
After the invasions of the Indo Europeans in the Balkans (6000 and 5500 years ago) they were free again

[albanopolis]

I have a theory : E - V13 arrived as slaves in the Balkans

By 7000 years ago, the Balkans were the most advanced civilization :
they had copper and gold mines and had advanced metalworking thecnology
the population grew very fast
maybe they invented the plough to increas food production
maybe they even had the first writing system :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets

They had also fortified towns, alltough they were not threatened by tribes from abroad :

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11...own-near-salt/

I think there was much social inequality, and they had slaves.
The slaves were E - V13 and they were imported from Lybia, north-Africa

Cardium pottery spread 8000 years ago in the eastern Mediteranean (500 years later also in the western Meditaranean)
They were fisherman (at sea) , farmers and traders.
They traded obsidian, als with Libya, north-Africa.

http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR22%20-%20AccChemRes%202002.pdf

After the period of the 'green Sahara' , noth-Africa became progressively more arid.
I think E-V13 were cattle herders becoming increasingly desperate because of the aridification.
Some E-V13 who still owned cattle made it to Southern Italy, or even to Catalonia, Spain, as proven by ancinet DNA (see the Eupedia section for that)
But the majority owned nothing and were sold or sold themselves as slaves to work in the Balkan mines or fields for food production.

I know this is a highly speculative theory.

I would like your feedback on that.

Do your ideas come during consuming alcohol or other banned substances?
If so, its worth looking in terms of how those substances influence the brain.

[John123]

How long have we left this guy rummage on about e-v13 jew-slaves; how long has he been allowed to go unchecked? Please bicicleur; stop abusing the magic shrooms lol

[John123]

The Greeks spread E-V13 across Mediterranean Europe; the Greeks. E-v13 originated on the Balkans just like J2b did. Here's another one with his directly from Libya to greece/southern italy theories XD

[bicicleur]

The Greeks spread E-V13 across Mediterranean Europe; the Greeks. E-v13 originated on the Balkans just like J2b did. Here's another one with his directly from Libya to greece/southern italy theories XD

you seem pretty sure

how do you know that ?

[John123]

Well they certainly spread it to southern italy via magna graecia colonizations; not a doubt. It was "Greek" when it appeared near that general region of the Balkans, maybe there's some old E-V13 in a few Spanish caves that contradicts this but the general pattern of spread via the Balkans has been well-established. They weren't directly Libyans or Jew-crypto-slaves; I'll tell you that much.

[bicicleur]

Well they certainly spread it to southern italy via magna graecia colonizations; not a doubt. It was "Greek" when it appeared near that general region of the Balkans, maybe there's some old E-V13 in a few Spanish caves that contradicts this but the general pattern of spread via the Balkans has been well-established. They weren't directly Libyans or Jew-crypto-slaves; I'll tell you that much.

the 7000 yo ancient DNA in Catalunia is undeniable
southern Italy may have been Magna Graecia
but how did E-V13 get to the Balkans then?
you say along with J2b
J2b came from Anatolia
how and when did E-V13 in Anatolia then?
the Semitic tribes got into the Levant only 5500 years ago, and they are supposed to be E-M34

[John123]

J2b originated in the Balkans. I'm not sure, there must have been an ancient contact between the early Balkans and the Iberian peninsula somehow, with an oldest contact of 5,000-7,000 years ago; it's hard to explain that.

[kamani]

This is all the European E lineages:

E-M78: came in Paleolithic from Levant through Caucasus or Anatolia in the post-LGM expansion from Near-East into Europe. Landed in Bulgaria.
E-v13: Born in Balkans. Spread all over in Paleolithic, Neolithic, Antiquity (Romans, Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks).
E-M123: came mostly with Neolithic farmers from Levant and Phoenicians. This has always been the little brother that nobody knows. Maybe Phoenicians and/or Neolithic Near-Eastern Farmers were 20-30% this one, and that translated into 5-6% max in certain European populations in the Mediteranean coast.

[John123]

E-M78 via Anatolia. I don't see evidence thracians and Illyrians had E3b; they seem to have originally expanded via the Dalmatian region of the northwestern Balkans.

[kamani]

I don't see evidence thracians and Illyrians had E3b.

There is some evidence:
-In England E-v13 is found in higher percentages in areas settled by Roman soldiers from Illyrian/Thracian origin.
-In Italy there is a high concentration of E-v13 in the part of the Adriatic coast settled initially by Illyrians (google map of Illyrians).
-currently it is a major haplogroup in all ex Illyrian/Thracian areas in Ballkans (Kosovo 45%, Bulgaria up to 35% in some areas etc).
-The percentage in Crete is lower that in Continental Greece, meaning it has always been based more in mainland Balkan than in the Islands.

I do agree that the pioneer IE part of Illyrian gene-pool came from North-West, possibly through Danube coridor.

[Sile]

There is some evidence:
-In England E-v13 is found in higher percentages in areas settled by Roman soldiers from Illyrian/Thracian origin.
-In Italy there is a high concentration of E-v13 in the part of the Adriatic coast settled initially by Illyrians (google map of Illyrians).
-currently it is a major haplogroup in all ex Illyrian/Thracian areas in Ballkans (Kosovo 45%, Bulgaria up to 35% in some areas etc).
-The percentage in Crete is lower that in Continental Greece, meaning it has always been based more in mainland Balkan than in the Islands.

I do agree that the pioneer IE part of Illyrian gene-pool came from North-West, possibly through Danau coridor.

There is only between 5 to 10% of that marker in Illyrian lands, note on the internet and on this forum, where do you get your information from.? link please

The marker is ancient, greek, macedonian, epirote and western south thracian lands.

Its lower in crete because it is not associated with mycenean, minoan or doric people

It in England due to some thracian roman soldiers, the illyrian component as per studies is minimal because the illyrians where basically celtinized by the time the Romans arrived.

[kamani]

There is only between 5 to 10% of that marker in Illyrian lands

Ofcourse you think that, if you count only modern Slavic Croatians as Illyrian. Just google Illyrians and you'll see the maps, they were not just in Bosnia and Croatia.

[Sile]

Ofcourse you think that, if you count only modern Slavic Croatians as Illyrian. Just google Illyrians and you'll see the maps, they were not just in Bosnia and Croatia.

if you want to roughly ( extreme rough ) marry it with modern borders, then

illyrian = croatia, bosnia and slovenia ....not in any order

thracian = serbia, bulgaria and romania ..........and european turkey

epirote = northwest greece and albania

macedonian = macedonia and some of northern greece

pannonian = hungaria

but as I said very rough association............really modern borders have zero association with ancient lands


But again, there are no illyrian people , only tribes which are associated in a geographical area called illyria

[Bardhyl]

paternal genetic lineage shown by Y chromosome is only 1/46th of genetic make up.
So, I dont know if its good to built up history based on only YDna.
MtDna test according to wikipedia:
Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9%), the Albanian (6.3%) and the Greek (5.8%) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%) (Wiki)


And Illyrians were built up in tribes, we cant know for sure how close they were culturally and linguistically the taulanti the dardani, the labeates in the south with the pannoni in the north, only which is known from around 400 bc until the romans conquered the illyrians the NOTABLE kings mostly reigned from the southern part of the illyrian tribes, namely Agron, Teuta, Gentius, Glaucias, Bardyllis, were reigning from the region in Scodra (Albania) and the area nearby

[John123]

Sile hit the nail on the head pretty much, he's right.

[John123]

E-V13 in southern italy/Sicily was a Greek colonization marker more than anything else. The Illyrians would have radiated from Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia-Herzegovina down to about northern Albania; E-V13 frequencies are generally far weaker up here than Albania and Greece (excluding Crete). The magna graecia colonizations would have taken place in the Classical Greek eras; long after Mycenean culture would have made E-V13 expand.

[LeBrok]

E-V13 in southern italy/Sicily was a Greek colonization marker more than anything else. The Illyrians would have radiated from Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia-Herzegovina down to about northern Albania; E-V13 frequencies are generally far weaker up here than Albania and Greece (excluding Crete). The magna graecia colonizations would have taken place in the Classical Greek eras; long after Mycenean culture would have made E-V13 expand.

How old is E-V13?

[John123]

Atleast 7,000 years old

[John123]

Bronze Age Europe (circa 4,500 years ago) saw the introduction to the Balkans of the E-V13/J2b package, probably agriculturalists from nearby western Turkey hopping over into Europe.

[bicicleur]

Bronze Age Europe (circa 4,500 years ago) saw the introduction to the Balkans of the E-V13/J2b package, probably agriculturalists from nearby western Turkey hopping over into Europe.

J2b came with the neolithic package to Thessaly, Greece 9000 years ago, and expanded into the Balkans 8500 years ago.