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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Greeks, Phoenicians and Mesopotamians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The Phoenicians would also have reached bay of biscay at cantabria/Asturias and have attained southernmost England via trading posts.

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    It's weird because most Horn of Africa tribe members say they descend from Quraysh tribe of Saudi Arabia, same for Madagascar tribes, same for many Indian tribes (Hyderabad region) high in T, same for many groups that migrated out of Hejaz to the levant/Syria/Jordan/Iraq region etc. No such stories for Europeans with T, likely a Phoenician or Jewish origin, or due to ancient Neolithic gene flow.

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    Haplogroup J2 and Phoenicians. (Carthage)

    "J2 is very frequent in the Levant/Anatolia/Iran region and its spread in the Mediterranean is believed to have been facilitated by the maritime trading culture of the Phoenicians (1550 BC- 300 BC)."
    Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0080293



    "Previous Y-chromosome genetic studies of Phoenician colonization have demonstrated that haplogroup J2 frequency was amplified in regions containing the Phoenician colonies of Iberia and North Africa in comparison to areas not containing Phoenician colonies."
    The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean.
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

    "Quite a few ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations flourished in territories where J2 lineages were preponderant. This is the case of the Hattians, the Hurrians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians (and their Carthagian offshoot), the Israelites, and to a lower extend extent also the Romans, the Assyrians and the Persians. All great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men."
    Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "The Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans all contributed to the presence of J2a in Iberia. The particulary strong frequency of J2a and other Near Eastern haplogroups (J1, E1b1b, T) in the south of the Iberian peninsula, suggest that the Phoenicians and the Carthagians played a more decisive role than other peoples."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "The Minoans and Ancient Greeks very likely played an early role in the frequency and high diversity of L24(M530) haplotypes we see today in Apulia, Italy as found by Grugni et al (2012). Later the Roman armies and auxiliaries played a role. Possibly even the Carthaginians under Hannibal (Battle of Cannae) played a role. Later still the Byzantine Empire, over a period of about 1000 years, very likely played a role in the movement of L24(M530) Y-chromosomes."
    J2-L24 Blogspot - More Comments on Grugni et al (2012)
    http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/

    "Ancient Carthage (from Phoenician Qart-ḥadašt) was a Semitic civilization centered on the Phoenician city-state of Carthage, located in North Africa on the Gulf of Tunis, outside what is now Tunis, Tunisia. It was founded in 814 BC. Originally a dependency of the Phoenician state of Tyre, Carthage gained independence around 650 BC and established a hegemony over other Phoenician settlements throughout the Mediterranean, North Africa and what is now Spain which lasted until the end of the 3rd century BC. At the height of the city's prominence, it was a major hub of trade with political influence extending over most of the western Mediterranean. For much of its history, Carthage was in a constant state of struggle with the Greeks on Sicily and the Roman Republic, which led to a series of armed conflicts known as the Greek-Punic Wars and Punic Wars. The city also had to deal with the potentially hostile Berbers, the indigenous inhabitants of the entire area where Carthage was built. In 146 BC, after the third and final Punic War, Carthage was destroyed and then occupied by Roman forces. Nearly all of the other Phoenician city-states and former Carthaginian dependencies fell into Roman hands from then on."
    Ancient Carthage.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthaginian_Republic



    "The Punics (from Latin pūnicus, pl. pūnici) were a group of western Semitic-speaking peoples from Carthage in North Africa who traced their origins to a group of Phoenician settlers, but also to North African Berbers. Unlike other Phoenicians, Punics had a landowning aristocracy who established a rule of the hinterland in Northern Africa and trans-Sahara traderoutes. In later times one of these clans conquered a Hellenistic-inspired empire in Iberia, possibly having a foothold in western Gaul."
    Punics
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punics


    Hannibal, son of Hamilcar Barca (247 – 183/182 BC) was a Punic
    Carthaginian military commander, generally considered one of the
    greatest military commanders in history.


    "The unique colonization pattern of the Phoenicians and the isolation of some of their colonies (Ibiza, Sardinia, Malta) have made it easy to identify their genetic signature. The Phoenician population was already very mixed 3000... years ago : E-V22, J1, J2, J2a4b, J2a4b1, G2a, R1a and R1b1a. E-V22 and R1b1a are quite specific to Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese, Druzes, Jews, Palestinians)."
    Eupedia.com - Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-civilizations

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    Haplogoup J2 and Maritime Civilisations. (Greeks and Phoenician)

    "All great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men."
    Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "When looking at the diffusion of Haplogroup J2a, M410, westward into Europe, one aspect of this westward spread becomes quite clear. M410+ ancestors used a maritime and coastal route to move west."
    M172 Blog - Pronou...nced Westward Maritime Diffusion of J2a (M410), 2008.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/pron...diffusion.html

    "The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as “Maritime Troia culture,” involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
    Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
    http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

    "J2 is very frequent in the Levant/Anatolia/Iran region and its spread in the Mediterranean is believed to have been facilitated by the maritime trading culture of the Phoenicians (1550 BC- 300 BC)."
    Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0080293

    "According to Di Giacomo’s (2004) study, the high diversity of haplogroup J2 in Turkish and southern European populations suggests that this branch of haplogroup J originated around the Aegean, not the Middle East. Additionally, it appears that much of J2 was confined to the coastal Mediterranean areas, indicating that maritime trade, rather than earlier Neolithic agricultural expansions, may have helped spread J2 throughout the Mediterranean world."
    A reassessment of Jewish DNA Evidence.
    http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm

    "The strong western (-0.82) but weak southern (-0.37) orientation of J2 is unexpected if J2 came to Germany from the Balkans, but is consistent with a maritime mode of propagation of this haplogroup."
    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/04/...n-germans.html



    "A trireme was an ancient vessel and a type of galley that was used by the ancient maritime civilizations of the Mediterranean, especially the Phoenicians, ancient Greeks and Romans."
    Trireme
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme
    Last edited by RHAS; 25-01-14 at 03:08.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    The Phoenicians would also have reached bay of biscay at cantabria/Asturias and have attained southernmost England via trading posts.
    Its well known that the Phoenicians had a trading post in Brittany with the Veneti and also another in southern Ireland.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Agreed my good sir.

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    Geneticist Dr. Spencer Wells speaks of his project "Quest of the Phoenicians". Also, he speaks of his parter in the project, Lebanese Dr. Pierre Zalloua. They take DNA samples from the Phoenician home land "Lebanon" and their colonies.



    "In 2004, two geneticists educated at Harvard University and leading scientists of the National Geographic Genographic Project, Dr. Pierre Zalloua and Dr. Spencer Wells, identified "the haplogroup of the Phoenicians" as haplogroup J2, with avenues open for future research."

    Familypedia.com - Phoenicia.
    http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenicia
    Last edited by RHAS; 25-01-14 at 02:43.

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    Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

    "Timur Serdar and Demircin Sema authored a recent study on the Y chromosomes of Antalya, which is located on the southern coast of Anatolia. Haplogroup J2 was most frequent in this study of 75 unrelated males found at a frequency of 26.6%. The J2 data was consistent with an earlier study by Cinnioglu et al which found 24% J2 in southern Anatolia. Haplogroup T (K* in the study) was next most frequent at 13.3% and this data differed from Cinnioglu's data which found only 3.3% Haplogroup K in southern Anatolia. The first record of Antalya was as Attalia, a greek city founded approximately 150BC by Attalos II, King of Pergamon."
    M172 Blog - Haplogroup J2, M172 in Antalya, Turkish Republic, 2009.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html


    Statue of Attalus II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attalus_II_Philadelphus

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

    "Timur Serdar and Demircin Sema authored a recent study on the Y chromosomes of Antalya, which is located on the southern coast of Anatolia. Haplogroup J2 was most frequent in this study of 75 unrelated males found at a frequency of 26.6%. The J2 data was consistent with an earlier study by Cinnioglu et al which found 24% J2 in southern Anatolia. Haplogroup T (K* in the study) was next most frequent at 13.3% and this data differed from Cinnioglu's data which found only 3.3% Haplogroup K in southern Anatolia. The first record of Antalya was as Attalia, a greek city founded approximately 150BC by Attalos II, King of Pergamon."
    M172 Blog - Haplogroup J2, M172 in Antalya, Turkish Republic, 2009.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html


    Statue of Attalus II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attalus_II_Philadelphus
    RHAS
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    Haplogroup J2 and Minoans. (Greek)

    "The most frequent haplogroups among the current population on Crete were: R1b3-M269 (17%), G2-P15 (11%), J2a1-DYS413 (9.0%), and J2a1h-M319 (9.0%). They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia."
    The Minoans, DNA and all.
    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wor...s-dna-and-all/

    "The Minoans and Ancient Greeks very likely played an early role in the frequency and high diversity of L24(M530) haplotypes we see today in Apulia, Italy as found by Grugni et al (2012)."
    J2-L24 Blogspot - More Comments on Grugni et al (2012)
    http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/


    Sea-Traders from Crete. (Painting by John Duncan.)

    "The world`s maximum concentrations of J2a is in Crete (32% of the population). The subclade J2a4d (M319) appears to be native to Crete."
    Eupedia.com 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml


    The Prince of the Lilies or the Lily prince, is a celebrated ancient Minoan fresco on the Greek island of Crete dated to circa 1550 BC (the new palace period between 1700 and 1450 BC).

    "It has been proposed that haplogroup subclade J-M410 was linked to populations on ancient Crete by examining the relationship between Anatolian, Cretan, and Greek populations from around early Neolithic sites in Crete."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA)

    Last edited by RHAS; 04-04-14 at 03:08.

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    Haplogroup J2 and Minoans. (Greek)

    "Quite a few ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations flourished in territories where J2 lineages were preponderant. This is the case of the Hattians, the Hurrians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians (and their Carthagian offshoot), the Israelites, and to a lower extend extent also the Romans, the Assyrians and the Persians. All great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men."
    Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
    M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/correlations-in-spread-of-viticulture.html

    "Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia)."
    The Sacred Bull.
    http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/



    "In addition to Hg J-M410, Hg G-P15 chromosomes, which are also common in Anatolia, have been implicated in the colonization and subsequent expansion of early farmers in Crete, the Aegean and Italy."
    Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe.
    http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/AreaStampa/documento2986.html

    "Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410 and a low frequency of J2b-M12."
    Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic, 2008.
    http://www.atlascom.gr/HELLENIC_DNA_PAPER.PDF

    "An analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups determined that the samples from the Greek Neolithic sites showed strong affinity to Balkan data, while Crete shows affinity with central/Mediterranean Anatolia. Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410 and a low frequency of J2b-M12."
    Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/full

    Last edited by RHAS; 04-04-14 at 03:09.

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    Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

    "When the fact that Hungarians are a mix of Central Asian and Mediterranean DNA is combined with the linguistic and cultural evidence I present in my book, the only logical conclusion for the origins of the Uralic peoples is the Indian subcontinent, in the region of the Hindu Kush."
    Magyar Origins - Hungarian DNA is not from North Asia.
    http://www.magyarorigins.com/hungariandna.html


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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

    "When the fact that Hungarians are a mix of Central Asian and Mediterranean DNA is combined with the linguistic and cultural evidence I present in my book, the only logical conclusion for the origins of the Uralic peoples is the Indian subcontinent, in the region of the Hindu Kush."
    Magyar Origins - Hungarian DNA is not from North Asia.
    http://www.magyarorigins.com/hungariandna.html
    Are you kidding me!!!

    Not just Hungarians, but also all Indo Europeans are from India, and probably everyone else with American Indians included of course, lol.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martiko View Post
    RHAS
    Thank you! It is exciting and it is a lot of job with documents.
    You're welcome!

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    Haplogroup J2 & Phoenicians (Carthage).

    "By the collapse of the Late Bronze Age societies (approximately 3200 YBP), the Mediterranean Basin underwent different waves of invasion, particularly by the Greeks of the Aegean Sea and, to a lower extent, by Levantine (Phoenicians) groups. Both of them established a set of different colonies along the Mediterranean coasts of Southern Europe and North Africa. The Phoenician colony of Carthage (present-day Tunisia), given its geographic proximity to Sicily, may have played an important role in the colonization of this region. Previous Y-chromosome genetic studies on the Phoenician colonization demonstrated that haplogroup J2 in general, and six haplotypes in particular (PCS1+ through PCS6+), may potentially have represented lineages linked with the spread of the Phoenicians (“Phoenician Colonization Signal”) into the Mediterranean. At this respect, it is worth noting the presence of 4 PCS+ haplotypes (namely PCS1+, PCS2+, PCS4+, PCS5+; [51]) in 9 samples of our Sicilian and Southern Italian dataset, particularly belonging to haplogroups J1-M267 (n = 2), J2-M410* (n = 1), J2-M67 (n = 5), and J2-M12 (n = 2). However, sub-lineages of haplogroup J2 have been also associated with the Neolithic colonization of mainland Greece, Crete and Southern Italy, and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 3271±1157 YBP to 3767±1332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times."
    An Ancient Mediterranean Melting Pot: Investigating the Uniparental Genetic Structure and Population History of Sicily and Southern Italy
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0096074-t001



    "The results regarding my paternal genetics were identified as belonging to Haplogroup J2 (M172). This genetic marker dates back to roughly 15 000 yrs ago and is found predominately in the Fertile Crescent. Most prevalent in Southern Italy, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Cyprus and several other countries around the Mediterranean and Caucasus region, some sources claim that these are the genes of the ancient Phoenicians who may have settled in the Roman Empire long ago."
    Livelearngrow.ca - My Roots.
    http://livelearngrow.ca/category/my-roots/

    "The excess of haplogroup J2, and PC1+ to PS3+ in coastal Tunisia, the site of Carthage, compared to inland Tunisian populations is exceptionally significant, and suggests that the Roman destruction of Carthage did not eliminate the Carthaginian gene pool."
    Anthropology.net - The Y-Chromosomal Footprint Of Phoenicians Throughout The Mediterranean.
    http://anthropology.net/2008/10/30/t...mediterranean/


    Aeneas recounting the Trojan War to Dido, a painting by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin. This scene is taken from Virgil's Aeneid, where Dido falls in love with, only to be left by, the Trojan hero Aeneas.

    "Dido (/ˈdaɪdoʊ/ DY-doh) was, according to ancient Greek and Roman sources, the founder and first Queen of Carthage (in modern-day Tunisia). She is best known from the account given by the Roman poet Virgil in his Aeneid. ...... The person of Dido can be traced to references by Roman historians to lost writings of Timaeus of Tauromenium in Sicily (c. 356–260 BC)."
    Wikipedia.org - Dido (Queen of Carthage)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)
    Last edited by RHAS; 15-05-14 at 03:36.

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    Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and Malta.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    "One extraordinary group carried their traditions and their chromosomes into the Mediterranean frontier. Were they the Atlantis superheroes of science fiction? No. They do appear to have been more intellectually and artistically advanced than anyone around them in the same time period. Where they settled, they made an impact. Their descendants survived through the ages with aspects of their original ancient identity largely intact until time and assimilation finally absorbed them -- as Sea Peoples and Temple-Builders, later as Minoans and Etruscans, and still later in the great civilizations of Classical Greece and Rome. Original ancestral families of settlers who make up a bridge into civilization are the people we are identifying as The Mediterraneans."
    Ancientmed.org - The mediterraneans.
    http://www.ancientmed.org/TheMediterraneans.htm

    "A Lebanese genetic scientist who has been following in 2007 the genetic footprint of the ancient Phoenician civilisation across the Mediterranean has found that close to one-third of modern-day Maltese share a genetic link with the ancient Phoenicians. Thirty per cent of DNA samples taken from Malta have been found to share a common and ancient genetic marker, known as the J2 haplogroup, with the Phoenician civilisation, which had colonised Malta for much of the first millennium BC."
    Blog dei Fenici - One third of Maltese found to have ancient Phoenician DNA.
    http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612...hoenician-dna/

    "As DNA samples continue to be analyzed, more revelations are surfacing. "We've just received data that more than half of the Y chromosome lineages that we see in today's Maltese population could have come in with the Phoenicians," Wells says. "That's a significant genetic impact. But why?" At this point he can only speculate. "Perhaps the population on Malta wasn't as dense. Perhaps when the Phoenicians settled, they killed off the existing population, and their own descendants became today's Maltese. Maybe the islands never had that many people, and shiploads of Phoenicians literally moved in and swamped the local population. We don't know for sure, but the results are consistent with a settlement of people from the Levant within the past 2,000 years, and that points to the Phoenicians."
    National Geographic - In the Wake of the Phoenicians: DNA study reveals a Phoenician-Maltese link
    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ng...ine_extra.html

    "One of the biggest surprises discovered till now is the genetic relationship between the people of Malta and the people of the Lebanese coast. Genetic similarities between the two groups are so high that they are a cause of amazement and surprise. What this has proven, so far, is the validity of the accounts of Phoenician history, on one hand, against the results of genetic studies in geographical areas of Phoenician colonies, on the other. Genetic studies underway will clear the mystery of the Phoenicians, and perhaps, embarrass many others. It is going to address a struggle over the history and ancestry of Lebanon which used to be thought of as a struggle over myths."
    Phoenicia.org - Genetics.
    http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html

    "Since the swanky London gathering to celebrate the publication of his book The Journey of Man, Wells has been promoted to the august position of "explorer-in-residence" at the National Geographic Society. He isn`t resident much. Eternally wandering, like any good explorer, which is a joint undertaking between the society and IBM. More than anything, this enterprise appears to be a genetic search for our collective identoty as a species. As Wells himself puts it, "In this future-obsessed era, it is important to seize a snapshot of our past before it is lost forever, in order better to understand ourselves and were we are headed." In his view, this snapshot is procured by collecting and comparing DNA from hundreds of thousends of individuals, who represen t all the ethnic and tribal peoples of the world. The project`s ambition is to map in detail how different groups and peoples are related to each other and how they have moved aroud and mixed over the millennia. As reported in the American Journal of Human Genetics, the propject`s geneticists have uncovered that the past`s great sailors, the Phoenicians, are the ancestors of the modern Maltese."
    My Beautiful Genome: Discovering Our Genetic Future, One Quirk at a Time.
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=Rpa_...%20dna&f=false

    "They looked at the genetic signatures carried on the Y chromosomes of men from former Phoenician colonies across the Mediterranean. The sites included coastal Lebanon, Cyprus, Crete, Malta, eastern Sicily, southern Sardinia, Ibiza, southern Spain, coastal Tunisia and the city of Tingris in Morocco."
    BBC News - DNA legacy of ancient seafarers.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7700356.stm

    "The same marker was found in unusually high proportions on other parts of the Mediterranean coast where the Phoenicians are known to have established colonies, such as Carthage in today's Tunisia. It's abundantly present in the Iberian peninsula, Zalloua added. In Malta, the ancient DNA type was found in an extremely high 30 percent of samples, he said. We are seeing a pattern of expansion out of the Levant area along the maritime routes the Phoenicians used he said. The J2 haplogroup has been dated using a calculation based on the rate at which DNA mutates."
    Reuters - In Lebanon DNA may yet heal rifts.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...59096520070910

    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-14 at 08:49.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

    "As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements."
    Mathildas Anthropology Blog - Greek Y chromosomes by Dienekes.
    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wor...s-by-dienekes/

    Last edited by RHAS; 16-05-14 at 22:19.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    "A Lebanese genetic scientist who has been following in 2007 the genetic footprint of the ancient Phoenician civilisation across the Mediterranean has found that close to one-third of modern-day Maltese share a genetic link with the ancient Phoenicians. Thirty per cent of DNA samples taken from Malta have been found to share a common and ancient genetic marker, known as the J2 haplogroup, with the Phoenician civilisation, which had colonised Malta for much of the first millennium BC."
    Blog dei Fenici - One third of Maltese found to have ancient Phoenician DNA.
    http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612...hoenician-dna/
    This is not a link to this scientific paper you are talking about. All I could gather from this article is that they judged relationship to Phoenicians by J2 marker. It is not good enough. This haplogroup could have arrived to Malta from Greece or Italy as well. It is very likely that most J2 in Malta is indead of Phoenician origin, but this article is not a proof of it, and neither will be this supposed scientific paper. It is just an educated assumption, that's all it is, and as many assumptions it might be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is not a link to this scientific paper you are talking about. All I could gather from this article is that they judged relationship to Phoenicians by J2 marker. It is not good enough. This haplogroup could have arrived to Malta from Greece or Italy as well. It is very likely that most J2 in Malta is indead of Phoenician origin, but this article is not a proof of it, and neither will be this supposed scientific paper. It is just an educated assumption, that's all it is, and as many assumptions it might be wrong.
    So sorry, LeBrok, I meant to acknowledge the helpfulness of your post. I shouldn't read this site while I have my coffee...or rather, I should wait until it kicks in.

    Can you fix it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So sorry, LeBrok, I meant to acknowledge the helpfulness of your post. I shouldn't read this site while I have my coffee...or rather, I should wait until it kicks in.

    Can you fix it?
    Nope, but I did it myself few times. No worries.

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    @RHAS. Why the hell did you give me negative rating for my last post? It is not even critical to your point of view!!! You must be a vicious small man, who quietly stubs in the back.

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    Haplogroup J2 and Phoenicians.

    "LAU scientist Dr. Pierre Zalloua, who discovered a genetic signature unique to the lost Phoenician civilization and used it to trace its descendants, appeared on the international television news channel CNN earlier this month to present his latest findings. Zalloua, assistant dean for Research at LAU’s School of Medicine, attracted media attention from around the world when he discovered that one in 17 men living in the Mediterranean carried Phoenician genes, indicating that the descendants of the “lost” civilization were alive and well."
    Lebanese American University - LAU geneticist’s quest for the Phoenicians makes headlines.
    http://www.lau.edu.lb/news-events/ne...quest_for_the/



    "The Neolithic control section shows nonsignificant results across all haplogroups, except for a significant J2 result in one test. The Phoenician-colony test results highlight only one haplogroup, J2, which consistently scores significantly in all three tests across the range of colonization sites. However, this haplogroup also scores significantly in Greek tests (as do some additional haplogroup...s), suggesting that the same haplogroup could have been spread by several expansions, which is unsurprising considering its frequency in the Eastern Mediterranean but implies that higher phylogenetic resolution is required for identification of Phoenician-specific signals."

    Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean.
    http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00547-8

    Last edited by RHAS; 18-05-14 at 08:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is not a link to this scientific paper you are talking about. All I could gather from this article is that they judged relationship to Phoenicians by J2 marker. It is not good enough. This haplogroup could have arrived to Malta from Greece or Italy as well. It is very likely that most J2 in Malta is indead of Phoenician origin, but this article is not a proof of it, and neither will be this supposed scientific paper. It is just an educated assumption, that's all it is, and as many assumptions it might be wrong.
    I think a bit of scepticism about those conclusions would in fact be quite justified, considering how many people have occupied those lands since the time of the Phoenicians. The J2 in Malta could certainly be Roman, for example. So could the J2 in Lebanon, for that matter, even though it's more likely native Middle Eastern. J2 is one of those haplotypes that originated in the Middle East but spread all around subsequently, so we can't necessarily say how it got to one particular location, unless someone has information on subclades that would suggest a Phoenician rather than Roman origin for the J2 in Malta, for example. But I didn't see that level of information in that article, so I think, as you said, the J2 in Malta could just as easily arrived in Malta from Greece or Italy. I would say it's as likely to be later Arab blood than from the Phoencian period. However, some words seem to inspire magical thinking in some people and "Phoenician" definitely seems to be one of those words.

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