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Hello Rhas. My nick is the word given to the island of Malta. Maleth means harbour or save haven (because of the numerous sheltered harbours around the Island. It is later believed to have been kept by to Romans and by time being called Melita.
These are some facts about present day understanding on the different time frames on the Islands
A) temple building. Malta's oldest temple date back to approx 5600BCE which makes them older than the pyramids of Egypt. There are intense studies at the moment in coloration with the University of Belfast. The temples could be well in connection with the 'old Europe' culture. I am hoping that dna testing will be carried out on the bones found on the site and determine haplogroups. This culture disappeared suddenly and the new studies will reveal why it came to an abrupt end. There are many theories (climate change, disease, erosion and so on) but nothing proved yet. The next evidence of other culture was the Phoenecians.
B) Phoenicians arrived in the 7th century BC. They founded to old captial (present day Mdina) and called it Maleth. As I said earlier the Romans kept the same name but was corrupted by time (Maleth / Melita / Malta). There were two phoenetician temples both close to the main harbours dedicated to Juno and Astarte. One still has its original foundations in the south and the other (documented in Roman writings) was in the entrance in todays grand harbour on the other side of Valletta (Probably where there is the great fort of St Angelo in Birgu). In the temple of the south were found two coloums with both Greek and Phoenician inscriptions (one of them is in the Louvre in Paris) This helped a great deal to decipher the Phoenician language through the Greek
C) during the arab period alhymardi (not sure if I spelt his name correctly) wrote that Malta was an uninhabited island and visited by fishermen and for logging and was inhabited by wild donkeys. This was after the fatimids laid seige on the Byzantines (so again it seems there was another culture meltdown and no continuation between these two well known groups that is the temple builders and the Phoenicians)
D) However Malta was repopulated again during the end of the Arab (870AD to 1091AD) (or more precise the Fatimid period) who occupied Sicily too. The people that repopulated Malta came from Sicily, So the modern day population (that has some 22% J2) would have arrived from Sicily. In fact DNA proves that Maltese DNA is related very closely to South Italy and Sicily according to a study by Capelli et al. Of course these also have large pools of J2 that could mark the Greek or Phoenician elements in both populations but not a continuous one on the Island of Malta (as per the writings left by Hymradi)
E) It used to be believed that Malta holds some ancient form of Phoenician language but nearly all linguists now believe that Maltese is a reminiscent of the Lingua franka spoken in Spain and sicily during the Fatimid occupation, also called siculo arabic. Of course this language has been lost in both Spain and Sicily (some words and place names still evident), but survived in Malta mainly thanks to the British as they fought hard for the Italian Language not to take over the Islands so Maltese became more prevalent. Now both Maltese and English are national languages with Maltese being the only semetic language written in Latin characters in Europe.
I hope this helps.
Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and Malta.
Video Part.3 - The Phoenician Imprint.
By Spencer Wells, geneticist and an Explorer-in-Residence at the National Geographic Society, Professor at Cornell University, leader of The Genographic Project.
"Surprisingly, more then 50% Malta's Y-Chromosome (male DNA) came from the Phoenicians. According to history, archeology and DNA, all points to the "Phoenicians" were the first to inhabit Malta."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZjF5IfuML0
"We reconstructed the genetic structure of the Levantines and found that a pre-Islamic expansion Levant was more genetically similar to Europeans than to Middle Easterners."
Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1003316
Last edited by RHAS; 18-05-14 at 00:35.
So basically, in terms of proving that the J2 on Malta is Phoenician rather than being from the Romans or Sicilians or from the Arab occupation, all you've got is someone saying "could be". Not very conclusive. If these "researchers" have subclade information that the more technically minded on this forum could dissect, we might have a yes or no, but at this point all we have is some folks with Phoenician fantasies and "could be".
In my humble opinion, the migration of people and sample selection issues must be taken into consideration in these studies.
Let me be more clear. For example Athens 2 centuries ago did not have more than 2500 houses, as Eleni Glykatzi-Arveler points out. After the liberation of Greece from the Ottomans, many people "flew" to the new capital. Eventually Athens ended up with more than 4 million inhabitants as for today, mostly peopled that migrated from their villages or smaller towns.
Hence, if someone wants to have more robust results about the genome, has to trace also (as much as he can) the history of their ancestors.
Οι ηδονές είναι θνητές, οι αρετές αθάνατες.
A little bit better, although this was 2007 study, and they promise to increase sumple size. Did they? Any updates from them? Where is the paper about this study?
However he doesn't say anything about 1/3 of population of Malta being Phoenician J2 type. He only says that there is (autosomal?) genetic connection with Near East and he speculates about Phoenicians being the source. He admits that possibly the source might be Neolithic.
Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.
Could you point me to this flaming and my offensive behaviour.
So if I don't agree with your opinion, it means I'm not friendly?3. KEEP YOUR POSTS FRIENDLY
4. STAY ON TOPIC
Avoid posting messages that are out of context or irrelevant to a topic. While we encourage your participation, such posts will either be moved to another forum or deleted in order to ensure a thread's consistency. If you do want to write a post that is too off topic you can always start a new thread.
What about post #45, it was in friendly tone, on topic, valid critique of the article you attached? And yet I got a negative rating. Do I need to kiss your ars any time I want to discuss anything in your threads? And only then I'm friendly?
You are just unreasonable and mean person.
You missed this:
We encourage controversial discussion as long as you show respect to other members and their views/opinions.
Haplogroup J2 and Phoenicians.
In "Quest for the Phoenicians," three renowned scientists, National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence and oceanographer Robert Ballard, geneticist Spencer Wells and archaeologist Paco Giles, search for clues about the Phoenicians in the sea, in the earth and in the blood of their modern-day descendents... Ballard looks at ancient shipwrecks along Skerki Bank off the island of Sicily... Paco Giles excavates a cave at the bottom of the rock of Gibraltar... Spencer Wells collects DNA from a 2,500-year-old Phoenician mummy's tooth, to extract its unique genetic code and compare it with DNA samples collected from men and women from Lebanon to Tunisia.
Sarcofagus, Sidonian King Tabnit
It was reported in the PBS description of the National Geographic TV Special on this study entitled "Quest for the Phoenicians" that ancient DNA was included in this study as extracted from the tooth of a 2500 year-old Phoenician mummy.
King Tabnit remains.
"Recent DNA (Y chromosome) studies conducted by the National Geographic Magazine on the bones of ancient Phoenicians and living people from Syria, Lebanon and elsewhere in the Mediterranean have shown that the modern peoples carry the same ancient Phoenician genetic material. Further, the Phoenician bloodline has been proven to come from an ancient Mediterranean sub-stratum."
New World Encyclopedia - Phoenician Civilization.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...n_Civilization
"The reference of the genetic prototype for the Phoenician makeup is based on human remains discovered in Turkey, as well as a human jaw—perhaps up to 4,000 years old—found in a mountain cave at Raskifa, Lebanon. Additional human remains are used, as well, for constructing a clear image of the Phoenician genetic point of reference."
Phoenicia.org - Genetics.
http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html
"Sidon Kralı Tabnit'in İstanbul Arkeoloji Müzesi'ndeki mumyasının sırlarını, alınan azıdişi ve derisinin DNA testleri çözecek. İstanbul Arkeoloji Müzesi'nde bulunan Sidon Kralı Tabnit'e ait mumyadan bir azıdişiyle iki parça deri, DNA testi yapılmak üzere alındı. Müzede özel bir odada saklanan Tabnit ile yıllardır müzenin deposunda tutulan esrarlı çocuk mumyasını Milliyet görüntüledi. National Geographic televizyonu bir belgesel için aralıkta müzede çekim yaptı. Belgesel kapsamında Kral Tabnit'in dönemindeki hastalıklar, yaşı, hangi millete ait özellikler taşıdığı ve ölüm nedeninin araştırılması için mumyanın bir azıdişi ile derisinden küçük birer parça deri alındı. Analiz ve kan testleri Beyrut Amerikan Üniversitesi'nde, DNA testleri Leipzig veya Oxford Laboratuvarı'nda yapılacak."
Milliyet - 'Lanetli Kral Tabnit' in mumyasına DNA testi.
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2004/04/13/yasam/yas04.html
Last edited by RHAS; 21-05-14 at 00:39.
Did anyone analyzed ancient phoenician DNA?
Is there an issue with Rhas links? I find them plausible.
IIRC, phoenicians where J1, J2, T and E
NatGen state there are less than 9% of phoenicians in the world today based on genetics ............I cannot find this data, I only saw it on a program and also one of their magazines
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and the spread of the Alphabet.
"Phoenicians themselves reportedly had a rich literature, it was totally lost in antiquity. That's ironic, because the Phoenicians actually developed the modern alphabet and spread it through trade to their ports of call. Acting as cultural middlemen, the Phoenicians disseminated ideas, myths, and knowledge from the powerful Assyrian and Babylonian worlds in what is now Syria and Iraq to their contacts in the Aegean. Those ideas helped spark a cultural revival in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age and hence the birth of Western civilization. The Phoenicians imported so much papyrus from Egypt that the Greeks used their name for the first great Phoenician port, Byblos, to refer to the ancient paper. The name Bible, or "the book," also derives from Byblos. Today, Spencer Wells says, "Phoenicians have become ghosts, a vanished civilization." Now he and Zalloua hope to use a different alphabet, the molecular letters of DNA, to exhume these ghosts."
National Geographic - Who were the Phoenicians?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ng...geographic.com
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Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-14 at 09:45.
Excellent post, Maleth. Thank you. Great video, too.
I once spent quite a bit of time studying the period of the great conflict between the Ottomans and Western Christendom, and particularly the role of the Knights of St. John in that conflict. I never really focused on how much that period could have influenced the genetics of the area, although I should have, considering the reports about how all the people of Gozo, or example, were taken into slavery.
I think there's insufficient attention paid to the fact that there has been population replacement in certain areas, and the people are therefore not going to reflect ancient populations very well. Many genetics papers, in my opinion, suffer from the fact that the authors often display little knowledge of the history of the areas under discussion.
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
Thank you Angela. I am glad you enjoyed the video too![]()
You are correct. In one particular raid (there used to be many) the Turks took I guess nearly all the population of Gozo into slavery in 1551. Raids were very common at that time although things improved rapidly after the ottoman total defeat after a 4 month siege on Birgu in 1565 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rubruP9p4i8 Soon after La Vallette embarked on building Valletta which was practically impregnable and the Turks never set foot again. During this time it is known from church records that there were many mixed marriages around the harbour area since they have created an important milatry based economy.I once spent quite a bit of time studying the period of the great conflict between the Ottomans and Western Christendom, and particularly the role of the Knights of St. John in that conflict. I never really focused on how much that period could have influenced the genetics of the area, although I should have, considering the reports about how all the people of Gozo, or example, were taken into slavery.
You are very correct. This is very evident also in the approach of (example) Spencer wells. It seems he did not check out the history first before making certain statements and while I have no doubt that he has done some great works, some statements seem to be out of context. Example in the year 1223 Emperor Fredrick the 2nd ordered his army to destroy the Castle of Celano and all the male population was exiled to Sicily and Malta. In Malta they settled in the south in the village of Zejtun. During the Aragonese period (before the knights take over) is also known to have been an effort to populate further the islands and many surnames today survive from that period too. So its all quite a pot pourii, not to mention the 180 years of British rule.I think there's insufficient attention paid to the fact that there has been population replacement in certain areas, and the people are therefore not going to reflect ancient populations very well. Many genetics papers, in my opinion, suffer from the fact that the authors often display little knowledge of the history of the areas under discussion.
Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and Malta.
Malta Times - Phoenician replica vessel sails around Africa.
http://www.phoenicia.org.uk/documents/Malta-Times.jpg
"The Phoenicia, a replica 600 BC Phoenician merchant ship, sailed gracefully into Marsamxett harbour today on one of the final legs of an expedition covering 17,000 miles around Africa. The 20m long vessel, built using traditional methods, arrived from Carthage. It is recreating the first circumnavigation of Africa achieved some 2,600 years ago. Malta was an important trading outpost of the Phoenician people, who at the time were regarded as 'rulers of the sea'. They occupied what is now Lebanon and the coastal parts of Syria and Palestine.The Phoenician sphere of influence spread throughout the Mediterranean and their trading activities reached as far as Cornwall for tin, and Indian and China for spices and precious goods."
Times of Malta - History recreated as 'Phoenicia' sails in.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...ails-in.328023
Last edited by RHAS; 18-05-14 at 14:01.
It is indeed. LeBrok, Mdina (Maleth/Melita as in the name of the Castle as it used to be called) was three times its present size during the Roman period. The Fatimids (northafricans/Arabs) reduced it to its present size after the re population from Sicily and re building a new after the town after destroyed to ruins during the Byzanitine era and left abounded for many years. They also build stronger walls for protection. Very few of the original walls remain. Most of the present walls were re constructed during the Knights of St John era.
Thanks Rhas, I wasnt aware that a replica was done. Having two Phoenician temples on the Island and many punic tombs all over the island can only prove how important the Maltese Islands for the Phoenicians at that time. It is believed the Phoenicians that settled in the Maltese Islands where from Tyre.
"De plus, dans ces études, des comparaisons d’haplotypes entre des sites phéniciens et des sites non‐phéniciens ont permis de déterminer des haplogroupes avec une signature phénicienne : Haplogroupe J2 et particulièrement six short sequence repeat du chromosome Y."
Universite de Portiers - Multiples conséquences physiopathologiques de mutations et d'allèles complexes du gène CFTR.
http://nuxeo.edel.univ-poitiers.fr/n...e-4656d5674715
"The presence of other Y-chromosomal haplogroups: E-V13, E-M81, E-M34, J1-M267, J2-M172, I1-M253, I2-P215 and G2a-P15 would be interpreted as a consequence of the genetic history linked to the Iberian Peninsula, especially, to Andalusia, with a long, prevailing contacts with the Mediterranean world. ... By contrast, the J2-M172 seems to be related to Greek and Phoenicians colonies that were well stablished at least from the first millennium BC in the Peninsula, particularly in littoral Andalusia."
Surnames and Y-Chromosomal Markers Reveal Low Relationships in Southern Spain.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0123098
"The PCA also illustrate the genetic affinity of Levantine populations to Europeans especially Italians. In fact, both groups present relatively high frequencies of J-M172 and share some other lineages in particular I-M170 and T-M70. ... Sousse, particularly, possesses a relatively high frequency of haplogroup J-M172 (~9%) that is absent in all of the remaining Tunisian populations with the exception of Andalusians (~3%). Haplogroup J-M172 has been associated with population movements in the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic Agricultural revolution. Today, it is very frequent in the Levant, Anatolia and Iran and its recent spread in the Mediterranean is believed to have been facilitated by the maritime trading culture of the Phoenicians (1550–300 BC). According to Zalloua and collaborators evidence of Phoenician influence in Tunisian is apparent by the presence of the J-M172 Y-chromosome haplogroup in coastal regions considered as areas of Phoenician contact (versus inland). ... The J-M172 haplogroup associated with the Phoenician expansion is distributed throughout the Mediterranean basin and Asia. It is thought that the Phoenicians originated in what is today coastal Lebanon and subsequently founded and settled several city-states in the Mediterranean including in North Africa. In Tunisia, their population number was estimated, at the end of their dominion, to be 100 000 compared with 500 000 Berbers. It is important to note that although the most famous city founded by the Phoenicians was Carthage, they also established the settlements of Utique and Sousse. Interestingly, Sousse is the only Phoenician town in Tunisia that has been continuously inhabited since its foundation and it is the only population where the J-M172 Phoenician paternal marker is detected. ... A more recent potential Middle Eastern genetic contribution to the North Africa gene pool may be associated with the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. Sousse also may have been specifically impacted by the Turkish occupation of North Africa. Yet, the unique presence of J-M172 in Sousse and its absence from other Tunisian regions that were under Ottoman influence argues for J-M172 in Sousse as a Phoenician signal."
Sousse: extreme genetic heterogeneity in North Africa.
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v6...hg201499a.html
The great Latin poet, Virgil, holding a volume on which is written the Aenid. On either side stand the two muses: "Clio" (history) and "Melpomene" (tragedy). The mosaic, which dates from the 3rd Century A.D., was discovered in the Hadrumetum in Sousse, Tunisia and is now on display in the Bardo Museum in Tunis, Tunisia.
"Hadrume(n)tum (sometimes called Adrametum or Adrametus) was a Phoenician colony that pre-dated Carthage and stood on the site of modern-day Sousse, Tunisia. Greek writers referred to Hadrumentum by the names Ἀδρούμητος, Ἀδρύμης and Ἀδραμητός. ... In the 9th century BC, the Phoenicians, astute Levantine maritime traders who would later be supplanted in Northern Africa by their major colony Carthage, sensed the possibilities of a port city south of present-day Tunis and founded Hadrumetum on what is now the Gulf of Hammamet in the Mediterranean Sea. Hadrumetum was one of the most important communities within the Roman territory in northern Africa because of its strategic location on the sea in the heart of the fertile Sahel region. The city allied itself with Rome during the Punic Wars, thereby escaping damage or ruin and entered a relatively peaceful 700-year stint under Pax Romana, although Hannibal made use of it as a military base in his campaign against Scipio Africanus at the close of the Second Punic War. Many records have been found that say the Romans sent a garrison of 5000 soldiers to protect it. They were led by General Septus Loriinus. At some point during this period, the community's name was slightly altered (by the addition of an N) to become Hadrumentum. Under the Roman Empire, Hadrumetum became very prosperous; Trajan gave it the rank of a colonia: "Colonia Concordia Ulpia Trajana Augusta Frugifera Hadrumetina". A breathtaking legacy of intricate Roman mosaics survives from this era, together with many early Christian objects from the catacombs"
Wikipedia - Hadrumentum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrumetum
Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-15 at 02:56.
Italy was the center of the world for a long time. It was the capital of the Roman Empire. People in the Empire aspired to earn Roman citizenship and move to Rome.
Italy also become the center of Christianity. The Roman Empire Semitized when Constantine declared Christianity a state religion. Roman subjects started taking on Semitic names. The Romans established colonies in J2 heavy areas... Africa(Tunisia), Syria-Palestine, and Egypt. They Romanized J2s. The land formerly known as Carthage produced a lot of food, lots of grain. J2 sailors may have loaded up the grain on ships and shipped it all over the Empire.
Take into account the provinces, Chritianization, and the importance of J2 heavy provinces to Rome. Also take into account Phoenicians. There was the big Jewish diaspora where the Romans sacked Judaea. Assyrians were also waging wars in J2 heavy areas. People may have fled.
J2's likely bled into Europe and Italy in waves throughout the centuries. We have a modern crisis right now where Syrians have taken land and Mediterranean marine routes into Europe to escape a war.
Europe is seeing an influx of J1 and J2 refugees.
- Phoenicians
- Carthaginians
- Romanized J2s
- ancient war refugees
- ancient people forcibly displaced by military actions
- traders