(Offtopic) Ethnic identity of ancient Alpine peoples

[Sile]

Sile, you are still continuing to confuse "script" (writing system) and "language", even in the very link you gave us there:



Nowhere does the article say that Raetian or Etruscan are Semitic languages, what the article says is (correctly) that the Etruscan writing system was based off a variant of the Greek alphabet (Euboean or Western), which in turn is 'of West Semitic origin'. What they mean is "was originally used to write West Semitic languages", which means the Phoenician alphabet (which, as we said, was the basis for the Greek alphabet).

I might add that Lemnian is written in a variant of the Greek alphabet, not in the Etruscan one.

Please don't take it personal, but as long as you don't understand what the difference between a writing system and a language written in that writing system is, I think a further dicussion with you is pointless.

I am not trying to prove anything of language and script that's your realm, all I am saying is that the script used in the alps ( raetic, venetic, cumunic, liburnian, noric) and italy( etruscan) has it epicentre , IMO in eastern tyrol and not in italy.

The vindelici name as proven was a created names by the Romans to sub-divide the raetic race into smaller fragments or as stated by ancient historians a part of the illyrian people.
Tribune Drusus in his conquest of the northern raeti people had to build ships on lacus venetus ( lake constance) to sail north and attack the last of the raetic tribes. This is noted by Roman historians.
I see in vindelici area no celtic or celtic influence in script of artifacts in these lands in the bronze-age........clearly it could only be raetic people or as stated above , illyrian

Archeologists stated that the most southern celtic town up to the year 700BC was Heuneburg and that is on the north side of the danube river

 

[Diviacus]

Archeologists stated that the most southern celtic town up to the year 700BC was Heuneburg and that is on the north side of the danube river

You cannot say that, as I gave examples in my post n°16 of archaelogists and historians saying the contrary. You can only say that "some" archaelogists say so.

 

[Nobody1]

Archeologists stated that the most southern celtic town up to the year 700BC was Heuneburg and that is on the north side of the danube river

I have my doubts about that; Example Hallstatt (the site itself) is further south than the Heuneburg;
Also the Heuneburg is in the upper-Danube area but not on the Northern Side of it;

The vindelici name as proven was a created names by the Romans to sub-divide the raetic race into smaller fragments or as stated by ancient historians a part of the illyrian people.
Tribune Drusus in his conquest of the northern raeti people had to build ships on lacus venetus ( lake constance) to sail north and attack the last of the raetic tribes. This is noted by Roman historians.
I see in vindelici area no celtic or celtic influence in script of artifacts in these lands in the bronze-age........clearly it could only be raetic people or as stated above , illyrian

The Vindelici recorded by Strabo (IV/VI) are the Licattii, Clautenatii, Vennones, Estiones and Brigantii;
And acc. to Strabo (IV/VI) the chief settlement were Brigantium, Cambodunum and the ''acropolis'' Damasia;

I have looked into the sources again and the Vindelici can only be considered as Illyrian if the Genauni/Breuni are also Vindelici tribes; And the only classical-historian that makes such a connection is Horaz; All others list them separately i.e. the Vindelici and the Genauni/Breuni as in Florus (II/XXII) 'the Breuni, the Ucenni and the Vindelici'; Now that does not change the fact however that the Genauni/Breuni were recorded Illyrians and it is attested by inscriptions that spoken an identical language as the Veneti - who in turn were likewise recorded as Illyrians (Herodotus I/CXCVI-V/IX); Also Florus (II/XXIII) 'The Illyrians also live at the foot of the Alps and keep watch over the depths of their valleys and the barriers formed there by the windings of precipitous torrents';

I would def. now seperate the Vindelici from the Genauni/Breuni but also point out that the line of Keltic and Illyrian in the Alps was very blurry and sometimes hybrid - example Iapodes; Strabo (IV/VI-VII/V) 'IV/VI Near to these regions dwell the Iapodes, close to them is [the Mount] Ocra. Formerly the Iapodes were numerous, inhabiting either side of the mountain, and were notorious for their predatory habits.....VII/V for it lies beneath that part of the Alps which extends as far as the country of the Iapodes, a tribe which is at the same time both Celtic and Illyrian'; All (Illyrian or Kelts) of course Indo-Europeans except for the Raeti;

 

[Sile]

I have my doubts about that; Example Hallstatt (the site itself) is further south than the Heuneburg;
Also the Heuneburg is in the upper-Danube area but not on the Northern Side of it;



The Vindelici recorded by Strabo (IV/VI) are the Licattii, Clautenatii, Vennones, Estiones and Brigantii;
And acc. to Strabo (IV/VI) the chief settlement were Brigantium, Cambodunum and the ''acropolis'' Damasia;

I have looked into the sources again and the Vindelici can only be considered as Illyrian if the Genauni/Breuni are also Vindelici tribes; And the only classical-historian that makes such a connection is Horaz; All others list them separately i.e. the Vindelici and the Genauni/Breuni as in Florus (II/XXII) 'the Breuni, the Ucenni and the Vindelici'; Now that does not change the fact however that the Genauni/Breuni were recorded Illyrians and it is attested by inscriptions that spoken an identical language as the Veneti - who in turn were likewise recorded as Illyrians (Herodotus I/CXCVI-V/IX); Also Florus (II/XXIII) 'The Illyrians also live at the foot of the Alps and keep watch over the depths of their valleys and the barriers formed there by the windings of precipitous torrents';

I would def. now seperate the Vindelici from the Genauni/Breuni but also point out that the line of Keltic and Illyrian in the Alps was very blurry and sometimes hybrid - example Iapodes; Strabo (IV/VI-VII/V) 'IV/VI Near to these regions dwell the Iapodes, close to them is [the Mount] Ocra. Formerly the Iapodes were numerous, inhabiting either side of the mountain, and were notorious for their predatory habits.....VII/V for it lies beneath that part of the Alps which extends as far as the country of the Iapodes, a tribe which is at the same time both Celtic and Illyrian'; All (Illyrian or Kelts) of course Indo-Europeans except for the Raeti;

Halstatt and heunebrg must be over 500km apart ............what do you mean?
Halstatt is in noricum lands. or near Noricum lands.
I said,North of the Danube river
http://www.academia.edu/3623124/Heuneburg._First_city_north_of_the_Alps_-_Current_World_Archaeology
The fortified citadel measures about 300 by 150 m. It stood on a strategically positioned mountain spur that rises steeply 40m above the Danube.
There where no celts south of this city in the bronze-age.

as of 2010 only 2 vindelici tribes have been located
The Estiones settled on the river Iller near Kempten, and the Brixentes (or Brigantes) near Bregenz.

the bronze-age border between celts and raetic was the The Hercynian Forest was an ancient and dense forest that stretched eastward from the Rhine River across southern Germany and formed the northern boundary of that part of Europe known to writers of antiquity. The ancient sources^[1] are equivocal about how far east it extended. All agree that the Black Forest, which extended east from the Rhine valley, formed the western side of the Hercynian.

 

[Nobody1]

Halstatt and heunebrg must be over 500km apart ............what do you mean?

Thats exactly what i mean;

Halstatt is in noricum lands. or near Noricum lands.
I said,North of the Danube river
http://www.academia.edu/3623124/Heuneburg._First_city_north_of_the_Alps_-_Current_World_Archaeology
The fortified citadel measures about 300 by 150 m. It stood on a strategically positioned mountain spur that rises steeply 40m above the Danube.
There where no celts south of this city in the bronze-age.

Technically the Heuneburg is West of the Danube but no-one actually refers to North of the Danube regarding Donaueschingen-Ulm from Ulm (when the Iller joins) onwards there is a North of the Danube; Hallstatt, Heuneburg, Heiligenbuck etc. are all sites of the same culture-zone that emerged after Bronze-age Urnfield i.e. early-Iron-age (Hallstatt C/D);

as of 2010 only 2 vindelici tribes have been located
The Estiones settled on the river Iller near Kempten, and the Brixentes (or Brigantes) near Bregenz.

Yes; also the Licattii are positioned around the Lech and the Vennones south of the Brigantii (Vennoneten/Venosten in the Vinschgau); The Roman administration (prov. Raetia et Vindelicia) is not clearly helpful for Vindelic tribes dwelled both in Raetia (Brigantii/Vennones) and Vindelicia (Licatii/Estiones/Clautenatii);

the bronze-age border between celts and raetic was the The Hercynian Forest was an ancient and dense forest that stretched eastward from the Rhine River across southern Germany and formed the northern boundary of that part of Europe known to writers of antiquity. The ancient sources^[1] are equivocal about how far east it extended. All agree that the Black Forest, which extended east from the Rhine valley, formed the western side of the Hercynian.

The Hercynian-forest (Hirtsenwald) was the border-zone of the Keltic and Germanic realm which exceedingly became Germanic during the Iron-age; The Hercynian-forest stretched from the Rhine to Bohemia (Böhmerwald) pos. the Harz and Erz still retain its etymology; Caesar (VI/XXV) 'It begins at the frontiers of the Helvetii, Nemetes, and Rauraci, and extends in a right line along the river Danube to the territories of the Daci and the Anartes' the notable Keltic/Gaulish tribes of the Hercynian-forest were the Volcae and the Boii; In Roman times (1st cen BC) it was already occupied (north of the Danube) by the Germanic Irminonen (Suebi/Quadi/Hermunduri/Marcomanni); Dekumatsland remains another question;

 

[Sile]

Yes; also the Licattii are positioned around the Lech and the Vennones south of the Brigantii (Vennoneten/Venosten in the Vinschgau); The Roman administration (prov. Raetia et Vindelicia) is not clearly helpful for Vindelic tribes dwelled both in Raetia (Brigantii/Vennones) and Vindelicia (Licatii/Estiones/Clautenatii);



;

Roman administration was helpful in that the name vindelici and the split of Raetian lands was entirely a Roman thing. It was to glorify the 2 Roman tribunes in the conquest of the alpine area of Raetia. Romans knew who was in their lands.....they where not dummies.

Augusta is a name given to a number of towns founded or colonized by Augustus. Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg), capital of Vindelicia, or Rhaetia (also spelled Raetia) Secunda, on the Licus (Lech), was colonized by Drusus under Augustus, after the conquest of Rhaeti in 14 BCE. Vindelicia was a Roman province south of the Danube, which separated it from Germany. It was bounded on the west by the territory of the Helvetti in Gaul, on the south by Rhaetia, and on the east by the river Oenus (Inn), which separated it from Noricum, thus corresponding to the northeast part of Switzerland, the southeast of Baden, the south of Wuertemberg and Bavaria, and the north part of the Tyrol. It was originally part of the province of Rhaetia, and was conquered by Tiberius in the reign of Augustus. Later Rhaetia was divided into two provinces: Rhaetia Prima and Rhaetia Secunda. The latter became Vindelicia. It was drained by the tributaries of the Danube, of which the most important were the Licus (Lech), with its tributaries, the Vindo or Vidro (Wertach), the Isarus (Isar) and Oenus (Inn). The greater part of the Vindelicia was a plain, but the south portion was occupied by the northern slopes of the Alpes Rhaeticae. It derived its name from its chief inhabitants, the Vindelici, a warlike people dwelling in the southern part of the country. Their name is said to have been formed form the two rivers, Vinda and Licus.

As stated vindelicia was part of Raetia , Raetia was divided and then around 100AD vindelicia was named from Rhaetia Secunda. I can only imagine this "vindelicia" was only raetian people that got HEAVILY celtinized from the iron age until the Roman conquest of 15BC.

 

[Nobody1]

Roman administration was helpful in that the name vindelici and the split of Raetian lands was entirely a Roman thing. It was to glorify the 2 Roman tribunes in the conquest of the alpine area of Raetia. Romans knew who was in their lands.....they where not dummies.

Augusta is a name given to a number of towns founded or colonized by Augustus. Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg), capital of Vindelicia, or Rhaetia (also spelled Raetia) Secunda, on the Licus (Lech), was colonized by Drusus under Augustus, after the conquest of Rhaeti in 14 BCE. Vindelicia was a Roman province south of the Danube, which separated it from Germany. It was bounded on the west by the territory of the Helvetti in Gaul, on the south by Rhaetia, and on the east by the river Oenus (Inn), which separated it from Noricum, thus corresponding to the northeast part of Switzerland, the southeast of Baden, the south of Wuertemberg and Bavaria, and the north part of the Tyrol. It was originally part of the province of Rhaetia, and was conquered by Tiberius in the reign of Augustus. Later Rhaetia was divided into two provinces: Rhaetia Prima and Rhaetia Secunda. The latter became Vindelicia. It was drained by the tributaries of the Danube, of which the most important were the Licus (Lech), with its tributaries, the Vindo or Vidro (Wertach), the Isarus (Isar) and Oenus (Inn). The greater part of the Vindelicia was a plain, but the south portion was occupied by the northern slopes of the Alpes Rhaeticae. It derived its name from its chief inhabitants, the Vindelici, a warlike people dwelling in the southern part of the country. Their name is said to have been formed form the two rivers, Vinda and Licus.

As stated vindelicia was part of Raetia , Raetia was divided and then around 100AD vindelicia was named from Rhaetia Secunda. I can only imagine this "vindelicia" was only raetian people that got HEAVILY celtinized from the iron age until the Roman conquest of 15BC.

Roman prov. of Raetia = Raetia propria (south part) and Vindelicia (north part);
And the Vindelic tribes dwelled in both parts not just exclusively in Vindelicia on top there were the Illyrian Genauni/Breuni (Inntal/Tyrol) and than of course the Raeti (dwelling in multiple areas); The Alpine conquest was campaigned first by Varro and Sillius Nerva and than by Drusus and Tiberius; Prov. Raetia et Vindelicia was only established in the reigns of Tiberius-Claudius; Augusta-Vindelicorum was made a municipium during the reign of Hadrian; By 110 AD the Romans levied 8 cohors Raetiae and 4 cohors Vindelicorum - also some vexillationes;

Raetia (brown) - Vindelicia (pink) - Noricum (green) - Pannonia (yellow) - Illyricum (pink)

 

[Sile]

Roman prov. of Raetia = Raetia propria (south part) and Vindelicia (north part);
And the Vindelic tribes dwelled in both parts not just exclusively in Vindelicia on top there were the Illyrian Genauni/Breuni (Inntal/Tyrol) and than of course the Raeti (dwelling in multiple areas); The Alpine conquest was campaigned first by Varro and Sillius Nerva and than by Drusus and Tiberius; Prov. Raetia et Vindelicia was only established in the reigns of Tiberius-Claudius; Augusta-Vindelicorum was made a municipium during the reign of Hadrian; By 110 AD the Romans levied 8 cohors Raetiae and 4 cohors Vindelicorum - also some vexillationes;

Raetia (brown) - Vindelicia (pink) - Noricum (green) - Pannonia (yellow) - Illyricum (pink)

yes Ok.............but when all is said, did the Roman say they where battling the raetics in 15BC or celts?...............I never seen the word celts in any texts.
The Romans clearly knew the celts and who they where for many centuries.

 

[Nobody1]

yes Ok.............but when all is said, did the Roman say they where battling the raetics in 15BC or celts?...............I never seen the word celts in any texts.
The Romans clearly knew the celts and who they where for many centuries.

They are all mentioned separately and distinctly from each other as Raeti, Vindelici and Norici;
[Dio Cassius LIV/XX-XXII / Florus II/XXII / Plinius III/XXIV(XX) / Strabo IV/VI / Tacitus Ann. II/XVII / Suetonius Aug. XXI]

The term Keltic is seldomly used specifically - mostly just referred to as Alpine nations/tribes collectively as also on the Tropaeum Alpium (GENTES ALPINAE); There is however one passage from Zosimus (I/LII) in which is mentioned: ''the Keltic legions of Noricum and Raetia'' - Palmyrene campaign 3rd cen AD;

 

[Sile]

They are all mentioned separately and distinctly from each other as Raeti, Vindelici and Norici;
[Dio Cassius LIV/XX-XXII / Florus II/XXII / Plinius III/XXIV(XX) / Strabo IV/VI / Tacitus Ann. II/XVII / Suetonius Aug. XXI]

The term Keltic is seldomly used specifically - mostly just referred to as Alpine nations/tribes collectively as also on the Tropaeum Alpium (GENTES ALPINAE); There is however one passage from Zosimus (I/LII) in which is mentioned: ''the Keltic legions of Noricum and Raetia'' - Palmyrene campaign 3rd cen AD;

when caesar got involved in the gallic/celtic wars between 71BC -55BC, there was no mention of celts in the raetic alps, actually the first celts where the helvetic celts. The helvetic bordered lake constance on the north-west corner of the lake. So, Romans already knew and dealt with celts in alpine areas 50 plus years earlier than the roman invasion of reatia in 15BC, you would think that the glorified term of beating more celts in battle in Raetia would be used...............but I do not see this term.

 

[Nobody1]

when caesar got involved in the gallic/celtic wars between 71BC -55BC, there was no mention of celts in the raetic alps, actually the first celts where the helvetic celts. The helvetic bordered lake constance on the north-west corner of the lake. So, Romans already knew and dealt with celts in alpine areas 50 plus years earlier than the roman invasion of reatia in 15BC, you would think that the glorified term of beating more celts in battle in Raetia would be used...............but I do not see this term.

I understand that logic;
But the Vindelici were only described as Vindelici - separated from the Illyrian Breuni/Genauni and the Raeti; Also the Norici are also just described as Norici - and both the Raeti, Vindelici and Norici are not single tribes but multiple tribes; And one tribe of the Norici - the Taurisci were described as Keltic; The Scordisci are also specifically Keltic/Galatae but also noted [Strabo VII/V] mixed with Illyrian and Thracian;

The Helvetii (times of Caesar 1st cen BC) dwelled between the Jura and the Rhine [Caesar B.GAL. I/II] and its depending when exactly they moved to this location; The area North of the Helvetii (Dekumatsland) was referred to by [Ptolemy II/X] as the Desert of the Helvetii (Helvetische Einöde) meaning that at one point the Helvetii must have dwelled and than left this area North and East of the Rhine (Hercynian-forest); One scenario of Helvetii migrating into the Alpine Alps could have been the Cimbric/Teutonic track of the late 2nd cen BC - reflected by the Tigurini; The track of Cimbri, Teutones, Tigurini and Ambrones that reached the Rhone 105BC are described [Eutropius V/I] as tribes from both Germanic and Gallic;