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Thread: Collection of skulls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Lebrok, have you some photo's of the Magdalenian 'Chancelade ' skulls, from different angles, and have you other 'Chancelade' men or women at hand?
    thanks beforehand for good sharing

    looking at this specimen, I find it present something which could be seen as a step towards a proto-mediterranian type: still some archaic features but far mor numerous "modern" traits -
    roughly same ratio mandibule breadth/cheekbones breadth as 'brünn' or 'combe-capelle' but more compressed, and typically modern 'mediterranian' the beginning of reducing of the inferior mandibule in all dimensions, and broadening of frontal-temporal frontier, frontal seemingly a bit bulbous on this picture - for the nose, too destroyed! -
    so a trend towards 'mediterranians would be started in some ligneages of France at this time: upon what older form? not Cro-Magnon at first sight -
    from what I red, without clear explanations, some Magdalenians were more ont the Cro-Magnon side: how much of this 'chancelade' form at these times? an early infiltration from South or an evolution on older more ruggish forms of 'combe-capelle'?


    The nose bridge seem to be smashed, or perhaps in young age, or he/she got disfigured due to some disease?


    Here is a great link to beautiful skulls from Czech Republic.
    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4424854/1/
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Awesome. Just found this thread. loschbour looks hella Neanderthal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Awesome. Just found this thread. loschbour looks hella Neanderthal.
    No Loschbour is not 'neanderthal' - he is on the brünn-capellid side of paleolithics, well distinct from the TRUE cro-magnon phylum, and he is very close to other HGs of Scandinavia -
    some scholars, not too stupid I think (not all of them are!) notice after comparisons that every big group cro-magnon and brünn-c-capelle shows concerning crania innovations from more ancient patterns, but not the same - personnaly, spite a maxillar apparatus very impressive in cro-magnongroup, the cerebral part seems more "evolved" (at first look) than in brünn-c-capelle: that said let's be cautious when speaking about intelligence -
    the brünnoid descendants have all of them a very more evolved faces than 'neanderthal', and more marked cheekbones- and 'neanderthal' facies is itself an aside evolution of older forms of human, concerning face it seems not "centroidal" to me - just opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post

    The nose bridge seem to be smashed, or perhaps in young age, or he/she got disfigured due to some disease?


    Here is a great link to beautiful skulls from Czech Republic.
    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4424854/1/
    thank you Lebrok for kind communication - the Chancelade type seems having left dense imput in western 'mediterraneans' types, which are today still more voluminous than the eastern 'mediterraneans' (noticed by Coon) -
    the question is that for Chancelade, I speak here about a lonely skull - it 's why I asked if they would have been other close specimens?

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    About conscient and unconscient agendas, I red a few months ago an observation from a "scientist" telling without laughing that the craniologic surveys have no values for more than a reason, and he saw the proof of it in the fact that some Neolithic crania of Portugal shew very close features to the Ukrainian Neolithic people's crania!!!
    same period, same culture, but this acute brained man thought it was not possible to imagine a common origin for people llving so far, the only explanation according to him being independant hazardous convergence: I 've not seen the material for comparison (I would like but I'm only a poor profane) but I think this remark shows considerable prejudice: does this knowledged (young?) man know that the sources of some farmers populations of Southern Europe were from the same areas (not all the same and not always the same types but every set of colonizers send people very far, some by sea to West, some by land through Carpathians to Ukraina... just a point

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Tomenable brought us skull of Karelian hunter gatherer, tested R1a
    https://www.oagr.org.au/source/I0061/


    Interesting curvature of the skull, side view, almost one continues curve from back of the skull to the eyebrows. Borders of forehead are not very well defined. It is rather quite slanted too.
    Nice teeth by the way.

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    Karelian skull reminds me of Motala hunter gatherer skull from Sweden, though they were hg I2a IIRC:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Tomenable brought us skull of Karelian hunter gatherer, tested R1a
    https://www.oagr.org.au/source/I0061/


    Interesting curvature of the skull, side view, almost one continues curve from back of the skull to the eyebrows. Borders of forehead are not very well defined. It is rather quite slanted too.
    Nice teeth by the way.

    Thanks!
    amateurish analysis of mine: evocating a partly gracilized 'brünn-capelloid' pattern; the flat enough nose bridge,and the retreating forehead BUT with relatively smooth browridge and high enough orbits could point to a 'mongoloid' slight imput: maybe this type would be what someones describe as the Forest Steppes dwellers which became Finnic for a part? Uncertain:
    the cheek-bones seem here a bit pushed forwards, what would be a confirmation if true, but it's not evident enough to make solid statement.
    Notice that some 'southern' ligneages seem also 'brünnoid' gracilized ligneages through the so called 'eurafrican' stage, so the frontier between so called 'mediterraneans' and some HGs is not a so clear cut for phenotypes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    2008 paper on Villabruna man(14,000 year WHG Italian with Y DNA R1b1)

    He had the same mtDNA/Y DNA haplogroups as me :). They mention he has very similar skull morphology to a individual from Switzerland who was about as old. We also have the Swiss guy's DNA, and he like VillaBruna was WHG. Villabruna's skeleton is very well preserved. They say his body proportions are most like North Africans and his skull is Caucasian.

    Here's his skull.


    Here's his Swiss Brother's skull.


    Here's facial reconstruction of a much younger WHG(8,000 years old) from Luxembourg.
    Stubby nose typical for WHGs and ANE. Still fairly defined eyebrows. Fairly big teeth. Slanted forehead. I would love to see good profile and frontal though.
    I think it has a very interesting bump in the middle of his forehead. He still looks like a hunter gatherer and like many northern Europeans today, but not very archaic like some old hunter gatherers.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    new skull for me:



    this one is said being the Villabruna skull:
    it seems neither on the Cro-Magnon's side (Arignacian?) nor on the Brünn-Capelle 's side;
    quickly said "harmonic" face-skull so # Cro-M, and not so receding frontal so # Brünn-Capelle. Could be closer to the Chancelade model, a more "cerebral-skulled" pattern. But it seems stronger concerning the inferior jaw. Something modern yet. I hope we 'll have profil views of the new skulls we 'll have. The occipital and frontal lines are of importance for me. I think Chancelade was already incipiently mediterraneomorph, a tep towards some modern 'mediterraneans' types, the less 'westasian' ones, the more 'anatolian'-'western neareasterner' ones, speaking in a general way.
    Here I make bets, nothing more: this Villabruna skull doesn't show evidence of crossing between the 2 older phyla (C-M, Br-Cap), when Loschbour could very well be one of this crossing results. So Villabruna could be a new phylum, with surely the same more ancient ancestors, but splitted from them since already a long enough time, and isolated for a time from the crossings which could have taken place between S-W France and Czechia.
    ???

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    new skull for me:



    this one is said being the Villabruna skull:
    it seems neither on the Cro-Magnon's side (Arignacian?) nor on the Brünn-Capelle 's side;
    quickly said "harmonic" face-skull so # Cro-M, and not so receding frontal so # Brünn-Capelle. Could be closer to the Chancelade model, a more "cerebral-skulled" pattern. But it seems stronger concerning the inferior jaw. Something modern yet. I hope we 'll have profil views of the new skulls we 'll have. The occipital and frontal lines are of importance for me. I think Chancelade was already incipiently mediterraneomorph, a tep towards some modern 'mediterraneans' types, the less 'westasian' ones, the more 'anatolian'-'western neareasterner' ones, speaking in a general way.
    Here I make bets, nothing more: this Villabruna skull doesn't show evidence of crossing between the 2 older phyla (C-M, Br-Cap), when Loschbour could very well be one of this crossing results. So Villabruna could be a new phylum, with surely the same more ancient ancestors, but splitted from them since already a long enough time, and isolated for a time from the crossings which could have taken place between S-W France and Czechia.
    ???
    As Fire-Haired pointed out in the thread about the Fu et al paper, the original study of the find described the head as "Caucasoid". They also provide a picture from the side. I hope the attachment function doesn't act up on me.

    Click to enlarge.

    Villabruna lateral view.jpg

    Villabruna-frontal view.PNG

    I do see what you mean about it being more "modern" looking. Given what they're saying in Fu et al, a more "southern European", partly Mediterranean look would make sense.

    Here's the paper to which Fire-Haired linked and from which the pictures come:
    http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Conten...Vercelotti.pdf

    "The Late Upper Paleolithic burial Villabruna 1 (Val Cismon, Belluno, Italy), directly dated to about 14,000 years ago (calibrated chronology), includes a well preserved skeleton accompanied by grave goods and covered with painted stones. The skeleton belongs to an adult male, about twenty-five years old, characterized by a relatively tall stature for the time period, short trunk and more linear body proportions than its contemporaries, similar to those of recent North-African populations. Multivariate statistical analysis of craniofacial characteristics place Villabruna 1 close to Le Bichon 1, a geographically and chronologically nearby specimen, suggesting genetic affinity among the last hunter and gatherers from the alpine region... Whereas the information on dietary habits drawn from dental wear is not conclusive, stable isotopes analysis points to a terrestrially based diet rich in animal proteins. Biomechanical study of major long bones indicates heightened overall robusticity and marked humeral asymmetry. These results suggest intense unimanual activity, possibly linked to repeated throwing movements in hunting, and the combined effect of mobile lifestyle and mountainous terrain, as far as the femur is concerned. Paleopathological analysis did not reveal signs of any major event which might help identify a possible cause of death. However, macroscopic and radiographic examination of the skull reveals traces of porotic hyperostosis, indicative of a healed anemic condition. Finally, localized tibial periostitis, probably of traumatic origin, and lumbar hyperlordosis associated with deformations of vertebral bodies and L5 spondylolysis provide evidence of additional, minor, pathological changes."

    Height was about 168.2cm. "According to Formicola and Giannecchini (1999), the average stature of the European LUP males is about 165.6 cm (SD = 3.5). Consequently, the estimate obtained for Villabruna 1 falls within the upper part of the range of its contemporaries."

    "Intralimb indices of Villabruna 1 (RL/HL; TL/FL) provide values similar to those of the North African sample and intermediate between those exhibited by Sub-Saharan and European populations."

    There's lots of graphs and charts of comparisons which I'm sure will make more sense to you than to me.

    Fwiw, one of the charts in the Fu et al paper has Loschbour as 85% Villabruna, but Bichon is 100% Villabruna.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Stubby nose typical for WHGs and ANE. Still fairly defined eyebrows. Fairly big teeth. Slanted forehead. I would love to see good profile and frontal though.
    I think it has a very interesting bump in the middle of his forehead. He still looks like a hunter gatherer and like many northern Europeans today, but not very archaic like some old hunter gatherers.
    His forehead is not that much slanted like Northern type of WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As Fire-Haired pointed out in the thread about the Fu et al paper, the original study of the find described the head as "Caucasoid". They also provide a picture from the side. I hope the attachment function doesn't act up on me.

    Click to enlarge.

    Villabruna lateral view.jpg

    Villabruna-frontal view.PNG

    I do see what you mean about it being more "modern" looking. Given what they're saying in Fu et al, a more "southern European", partly Mediterranean look would make sense.

    Here's the paper to which Fire-Haired linked and from which the pictures come:
    http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Conten...Vercelotti.pdf

    "The Late Upper Paleolithic burial Villabruna 1 (Val Cismon, Belluno, Italy), directly dated to about 14,000 years ago (calibrated chronology), includes a well preserved skeleton accompanied by grave goods and covered with painted stones. The skeleton belongs to an adult male, about twenty-five years old, characterized by a relatively tall stature for the time period, short trunk and more linear body proportions than its contemporaries, similar to those of recent North-African populations. Multivariate statistical analysis of craniofacial characteristics place Villabruna 1 close to Le Bichon 1, a geographically and chronologically nearby specimen, suggesting genetic affinity among the last hunter and gatherers from the alpine region... Whereas the information on dietary habits drawn from dental wear is not conclusive, stable isotopes analysis points to a terrestrially based diet rich in animal proteins. Biomechanical study of major long bones indicates heightened overall robusticity and marked humeral asymmetry. These results suggest intense unimanual activity, possibly linked to repeated throwing movements in hunting, and the combined effect of mobile lifestyle and mountainous terrain, as far as the femur is concerned. Paleopathological analysis did not reveal signs of any major event which might help identify a possible cause of death. However, macroscopic and radiographic examination of the skull reveals traces of porotic hyperostosis, indicative of a healed anemic condition. Finally, localized tibial periostitis, probably of traumatic origin, and lumbar hyperlordosis associated with deformations of vertebral bodies and L5 spondylolysis provide evidence of additional, minor, pathological changes."

    Height was about 168.2cm. "According to Formicola and Giannecchini (1999), the average stature of the European LUP males is about 165.6 cm (SD = 3.5). Consequently, the estimate obtained for Villabruna 1 falls within the upper part of the range of its contemporaries."

    "Intralimb indices of Villabruna 1 (RL/HL; TL/FL) provide values similar to those of the North African sample and intermediate between those exhibited by Sub-Saharan and European populations."

    There's lots of graphs and charts of comparisons which I'm sure will make more sense to you than to me.

    Fwiw, one of the charts in the Fu et al paper has Loschbour as 85% Villabruna, but Bichon is 100% Villabruna.

    Thanks Angela, I'm very glad.
    'mediterranean'? in what sense?
    1- North Africans of what period and regions? They are/were far to be homogenous, for crnaia or for body
    It seems to me a basic modern eurasian, with a frontal that separates him definetly from the Brünn/Capelle phylum (Y-IJ?). His skull is low enough. Hs body proportions could put him in the ascendance of some 'nordics' and robust 'mediterranean'; the skull does not place him too close to the new 'mediterranean' types (even the high statured ones of North Africa) were very higher skulled (proportionally speaking).
    Here I suppose: it could be a refined form of a not too speciliazed branch as opposed to Cromagnoids and Brünnoids. By the way it's the first so "modern" type I see (as a profan) so early in Europe and it doesn't confirm at all the metric means of Italy Mesolithic (but means are means, I never saw these mesolithic italian skulls in picture).
    In France maybe we have a relatively "modern" skull with Chancelade (already something 'mediterraneanlike') but is jaw seems by far weaker than the Villabruna 's one.

    &: ancestral 'mediterraneans' were surely closer to ancestral 'nordics' and I don't see their origin in early paleolithic Europe; COON was not wrong, perhaps?
    somewhere in South Ukraina-Russia at first??? Or in Eastern Mediterranea before later evolutions splitting the group into pre-med and pre-nordic??? they lack the common hyper-gracilization of future 'meds' and the nasal bridge evolution of future North-Near-Easterners-West-Asians...). They had not the incipient 'brünnoid' imput as West-Asians.
    ???

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It could be a proxi for the 'ancient mediterranean' / 'cromagnoid mediterranean' of the french CHARLES about Eneolithic (so recent enough times): I wrote quickly. NOw I *see his cheekbones are relatively broad, spite his jaw is strong but very narrower. CHARLES considered his type was no more homegenous concerning faces, youngs and females presenting the most often an evolution towards face narrowing and that more often among the eastern ones (Italy, Greece), when the skull itself and orbits proportions were always very close to old Cro-Magnon types. I don' know what to say, perhaps we have here an explanation of progressive narrowing of face (jaw at first) in Western Cro-Ma's supposed descendants: a types of same ancient origin but stayed in East Med and without the inferior jaw broading accentued evolution of other cousins like typical Cro-Magnons? I would rather suppose they arrived very later from farther East than first Cro-Ma's. and mixed with them later too, giving this jaw narrowing pseudo-evolution among Western Eneolithic 'cromagnoid mediterraneans' of CHARLES. Now I speak here of 2 skulls (14000 BC Italy and Switzerland) what is very very few indeed! They could have been isolated mobile outsiders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It could be a proxi for the 'ancient mediterranean' / 'cromagnoid mediterranean' of the french CHARLES about Eneolithic (so recent enough times): I wrote quickly. NOw I *see his cheekbones are relatively broad, spite his jaw is strong but very narrower. CHARLES considered his type was no more homegenous concerning faces, youngs and females presenting the most often an evolution towards face narrowing and that more often among the eastern ones (Italy, Greece), when the skull itself and orbits proportions were always very close to old Cro-Magnon types. I don' know what to say, perhaps we have here an explanation of progressive narrowing of face (jaw at first) in Western Cro-Ma's supposed descendants: a types of same ancient origin but stayed in East Med and without the inferior jaw broading accentued evolution of other cousins like typical Cro-Magnons? I would rather suppose they arrived very later from farther East than first Cro-Ma's. and mixed with them later too, giving this jaw narrowing pseudo-evolution among Western Eneolithic 'cromagnoid mediterraneans' of CHARLES. Now I speak here of 2 skulls (14000 BC Italy and Switzerland) what is very very few indeed! They could have been isolated mobile outsiders.
    Except that genetically, if this paper is correct, this is the group who replaced in large measure the prior inhabitants of Europe.

    Anyway, this is "Il Principe", from the Arene Candide, dated to 23, 500 YBP, so much earlier and a different culture, Gravettian versus Epigravettian. How do you think it compares to the Vestonice Gravettian skulls?

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d88ae77668.jpg


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    I don't know what to answer about just a profil sight and with measures taken by professionals - at first sight he (she?) looks more 'cromagnoid' than 'brünnoid' concerning crania - So this is a game for me more than anthing. I consider metrics is serious even on the genetic aspect. But the evolution speed for diverse genetic traits, phoenotypic ones among them, is nt always the same; and crossings can provide big differences for some of the phoenotypical traits among individuals which are not by force reflected in the whole autosomes picture.
    I think the western 'cro-magnon' type was rather typical of the Aurignacian, and the 'brünn' or 'combe-capelle' ones rather typical for the Gravettian: amateur statement.
    I think too that after the LGM, in West, the crossings became to produce the variated picture of Mesolithic people there. I have to put my slow brain at work to try to provide more reasoning about the possible filiation and relations of all these types of Late Paleo/Mesolithic, always for the amateur's fun.
    All the way, the 2 big types of Late Paleo are very too different IN ALL ASPECTS to be a recent forking, for I think; and the one I consider more recent IN WEST EURASIA (''brunn & co') did not erase completely the precedent ones concerning pheonotype whatever occurred concerning males haplos. I see just that the more or less pseudo-negroid form of 'grimaldi' did not appear among the pictures I saw inthese thread but?
    Just guess.
    Good sunday

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    erratum ..."without measures taken by ..."

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Early Roman skulls from the Roman Forum

    foroskull.jpg

    North Italian neolithic skull

    neoita.jpg

    (click to zoom)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Stop posting random, no doubt cherry picked pictures. This isn't either theapricity or italicroots. Or perhaps italicroots is too southern Italian for a northern Italian Padanist??

    If you're going to post at all, link to the study from which it comes, and provide dates, measurements etc.

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    ???

    actually i'm not registred on those fora you mentioned. The pictures are not "cherry-picked", i thought they were interesting..

    source:
    NOTIZIE DEGLI SCAVI DI ANTICHITÀ, 1906
    I resti scheletrici umani provenienti dalle stazioni trentine del Neo-eneolitico e dell'Età del Bronzo, 1967.

    you can find the pdf online

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Early Roman skulls from the Roman Forum

    foroskull.jpg

    North Italian neolithic skull

    neoita.jpg

    (click to zoom)
    If these are good proxies for their contemporaries, then Neolithic farmers in Northern Italy were dolicho and the invaders IE Romans were brachio.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela
    O don't know why you seem a bit upset by this posting of skulls: it's the thread aim; and they are referenced for place and time;
    @Lebrok
    the "roman" skull is not brachy but meso in my sense: about CI 80 - and it's for me the skull of a child, even not an adolescent, so to be taken with caution (unless it would be a person with skeleton disease? it doesn't seem the case): look at the very small face whatever the proportions (not too 'mediter'), and proportionally the large orbits and so on.
    the other skull, not neol but eneolithic so at the daybreak of metals, is dolicho, true, and show strong 'cromagnoid' features and less 'mediter' ones (but the crania lateral profile): a crossing? not too surprising;

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Lebrok
    the "roman" skull is not brachy but meso in my sense: about CI 80 - and it's for me the skull of a child, even not an adolescent, so to be taken with caution ;
    yes you're right, i had the same impression so i rechecked the source..it's a skull of a 6-7 years old child (female), C.I. 75.8

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    'Gast!' ("*****")I grow half blind! a CI of about 76 and I bet 80! Damned! 76 is said "mesocrane" (limit with dolicho) but for Europeans of the 1940's it corresponded to subdolichocephally (on life, it's my C index). Scientists had two scales; one for crania, another for alife heads; the second scale is better compared to European humans.
    But it 's good to know it 's a child! I haven't lost all my head...
    Thanks.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Botai skull:




    1.another skulls:
    http://iggc.kz/wp-content/uploads/20...noyab-2016.pdf
    All Botaya skulls are large, have a characteristic horizontal
    Flatness in the front part, which is also noted in some ancient
    Finds of Western Siberia (Protoka & Sopka-2), the steppe Urals (Gladunino-3),
    Western Kazakhstan (Shoktybai, Kumsai, Zhirenkopa, Ishkinovka), the Eastern
    Kazakhstan (Shiderty, Zhelezinka, Ust-Narymsky, Rough II), and the Northern
    Turkmenistan (Tumek-Kichidzhik / Priaralye). Thus the Botany skulls
    Represent a separate anthropological type, formed in the steppe
    Part of Asia during the Eneolithic period - "Kazakh steppe type".

    One of the skulls - with a lifetime trepanation.
    Spoka -2 was classified as an intermediate between caucasoid and mongoloid, being similar to Okunevo. Any caucasoid skull was not found in Karzakstan before andronovo.

    2. Is there any chance of yDna to be “N” like Okunevo?

    The genotyping of the "Botaysky man" showed a 100% Belonging to the K1b2 mtDNA haplotype
    Генотипирование “Ботайского человека« показало 100% принадлежность к K1b2 гаплотипу мтДНК (1.Del(G), 4T, 11C/T, 73G, 146C, 195C, 263G, 750G, 1189C, 1438G, 1811G, 2706G, 3480G, 4769G, 5908A, 7028T, 8860G, 9055A, 9300T, 9698C, 10398G, 10550G, 11299C,11467G, 11719A, 12308G, 12372A, 12738G, 14167T, 14766T, 14798C, 15326G, 15374A, 16213A, 16311C, 16519C, 16543A/G, 16562- 16569d)
    97.1% probability of O2 of the Y-chromosome haplotype
    97.1 % вероятности О2 Y-хромосомного гаплотипа (DYS390-24, DYS391-11, DYS392-13, DYS393 - 14, DYS19 - 15, DYS385 a/b - 17/18, DYS439 - 13, DYS389 I - 12, DYS389 II - 29, DYS448-23, DYS458 - 15, DYS437 - 15, GATA H4 - 11, DYS456 - 16, DYS438 - 13, DYS635 – 21)

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