Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 129

Thread: Brown-skinned, blue-eyed, Y-haplogroup C-bearing European hunter-gatherer from Spain

  1. #26
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Unlikely, because genetic evidence tells us otherwise. Northwest Europe was too poor for both hunter-gatherers and farmers. Only bronze-age metal workers knew what to do there. The last paleolithic survivors dwelled in the northern forests and most of them speak finno-ugric today.
    So no farmers in the Isles to bring SLC24A5 until much later then. And the northwest corner having the most surviving red hair. And all the ancient writers mentioning red hair from Libya to the border with China. Sounds to me like the red haired, pale skinned euro phenotype was different to the current euro phenotype and has been retreating to the northwest for a long time in sequence with the increase in frequency of an improved de-pigmenting allele from the southeast.

    If people look they're going to find the red hair phenotype is a kind of partial form of albinism with fewer side-effects: red hair, light eyes, pale skin, brown freckles.

    .

    Separately

    "The last paleolithic survivors dwelled in the northern forests"

    I1 bottleneck i.e. dramatic population increase, matches Funnelbeaker.

  2. #27
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-10-13
    Location
    Manhattan
    Posts
    25

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1-M81
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: USA - New York



    I have seen people like that extremely freckled fellow, and of all the odd places , in Afghanistan and Korea. Dark skinned with very pale blue eyes, not far, in India.

  3. #28
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-01-14
    Posts
    119

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z8
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K

    Country: Canada




    According to Encyclopedia Britannia where it talks about the inhabitants of the Canary Islands off the coast of Morocco, it says: “... Both aboriginal groups had brown complexion, blue or gray eyes, and blondish hair, and these characteristics still persist in a large number of present inhabitants of the islands, but otherwise they are scarcely distinguishable in appearance or culture from the people of Spain.”:http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...he-and-Canario Wonder if it’s our La Brana guys, or a related people.

    In this table:http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCYQ FjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plosgenetics.org%2Fartic le%2FfetchSingleRepresentation.action%3Furi%3Dinfo %3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296.s004&ei=q1 zwUruIKKiIyAHlwIGgBA&usg=AFQjCNH4DOx_NCUiWp0LFrX2i cc8eToTYg&bvm=bv.60444564,d.aWcthey have a listing of samples displaying HVR-I sequences possibly belonging to mtdna C1. There's one possible C1 there listed as being from the Canary Islands that has no exact matches on the list. There are some Mesolithic C1’s dated to 7,500 ybp found in northwest Russia listed here: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml They have some of the same mutations, but seem to have a mutation that the Canary Islander doesn’t have. The Canary Islander doesn’t seem to have all the mutations that the Icelandic C1e’s in the table have either. (Although one “German” sample in the table does match those “Icelander” samples)

    Edit: These samples in the second link I provided just display the HVR-I sequences, so are not full displays of the haplogroup membership criteria. And it is possible that the Canary Islander and the German sample don't meet the full criteria for belonging to mtdna haplogroup C1.
    I also don’t mean to confuse mtdna C with ydna C here -- just looking for patterns in the available data.




    Last edited by JS Bach; 05-02-14 at 08:13.

  4. #29
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-10-13
    Location
    Manhattan
    Posts
    25

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1-M81
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    If one has been to the Canary islands, one would see many modern Germans or British living there with what could be called that Britannica "brown complexion" or perhaps darker than what this may meant. And I think their blonde or light eyes found among Gwanchies, can be found among Moroccans of today and before, and these could have come from the Mtdna haplogroups still present in there (or/and from their "mate Y-haplogroups") carried by the original Paleolithic Maurusians that moved to North Africa from Iberia earlier, or those that came from the East of Egypt along the Mediterranean coastline. Ancient Libyans as Phoenicians were known to be light-eyed, however understood today as just swarthy Mediterraneans

  5. #30
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    24-10-13
    Posts
    1


    Country: USA - Iowa



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry, but you're all confused here. La Brana had the ancestral allele on SLC24A5, not the derived one that is in almost 100% of Europeans. The derived one causes the lightening of skin by 25-40%, not the one that La Brana had. La Brana had the allele that is in 93-100% of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Native Americans. In fact, he apparently has the same ones we find in current Sri Lankans, Papuans and Aborigines. The freckle alleles can appear in all races, they don't show on darker people of course. Skin color is not important for the freckle allele. La Brana was quite dark skinned.

  6. #31
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,261


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    I found a study in my saved files that looked at the global distribution of commonly tested snps for skin de-pigmentation.

    The full Norton et al paper can be found here: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.full

    This handy table lists the snps, the gene in which they appear, and the global distribution. The MATP gene is the one in which SLC42A5 can be found. SLC24A5, SLC42A5, and TYR together account for the vast majority of the variation between SSAs and Eruopeans.
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...expansion.html

    This table provides the exact percentages in list form for five snps by Hap Map population.
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...File010_msl203.

    I checked for all of them in the supplement of the Olade paper, and other than ASIP rs6058017, which I couldnt find, the others were tested, and La Brana was ancestral for all of them.

    I also found it helpful to read the following forensics paper, where they make it clear that in order for the probabilities to be reliable for lighter skin pigmentation, the sample must be homozygous for three certain high value snps. Even for medium skin, the sample must be homozygous for at least two of a set of snps. When all criteria are met, the false prediction rate is 1%. The forensics test uses some of the snps used by Norton et al, namely SLC45A2 and 24A5, but not all of them, and includes other snps associated with pigmentation.
    https://ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/242774.pdf

    From the forensics paper... Non-dark skin color (i.e. light or medium) is predicted by any two of the following
    alleles, GG at rs12913832'Herc2, GG at rs16891982'SLC45A2, AA at rs1426654'SLC24A5, TT at rs1545397'OCA2, or AA at MCIR rs885479.


    Light skin color is predicted by more stringent conditions, GG at rs1291382, which is the Herc2 gene, plus GG at rs16891982 which is SLC45A2, and AA at rs1426654, which is SLC24A5. All three must be present and homozygous.

    Non light skin color, i.e. medium or dark is predicted by GG at rs6119471 on the ASIP gene.

    As for La Brana, he is derived homozygous C on rs6119471 on the ASIP gene, which is considered a weak effect gene. He is also homozygous for the derived GG on the Herc2 rs12913832 snp, and heterozygous T on IRF4, rs2203592, which is considered a medium effect gene. So, he has a total of 5 out of 14 possible snps on the test, although as used, there is a qualitative criteria instead of a merely additive one.

    As the authors mentioned in the text of the paper itself, La Brana is also heterozygous derived C for TYRP1, rs1408799, which is also implicated in relation to eye color.

    Applying the standard forensics criteria, he would be predicted as having dark skin.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  7. #32
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I found a study in my saved files that looked at the global distribution of commonly tested snps for skin de-pigmentation.

    The full Norton et al paper can be found here: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.full

    This handy table lists the snps, the gene in which they appear, and the global distribution. The MATP gene is the one in which SLC42A5 can be found. SLC24A5, SLC42A5, and TYR together account for the vast majority of the variation between SSAs and Eruopeans.
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...expansion.html

    This table provides the exact percentages in list form for five snps by Hap Map population.
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...File010_msl203.

    I checked for all of them in the supplement of the Olade paper, and other than ASIP rs6058017, which I couldnt find, the others were tested, and La Brana was ancestral for all of them.

    I also found it helpful to read the following forensics paper, where they make it clear that in order for the probabilities to be reliable for lighter skin pigmentation, the sample must be homozygous for three certain high value snps. Even for medium skin, the sample must be homozygous for at least two of a set of snps. When all criteria are met, the false prediction rate is 1%. The forensics test uses some of the snps used by Norton et al, namely SLC45A2 and 24A5, but not all of them, and includes other snps associated with pigmentation.
    https://ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/242774.pdf

    From the forensics paper... Non-dark skin color (i.e. light or medium) is predicted by any two of the following
    alleles, GG at rs12913832'Herc2, GG at rs16891982'SLC45A2, AA at rs1426654'SLC24A5, TT at rs1545397'OCA2, or AA at MCIR rs885479.


    Light skin color is predicted by more stringent conditions, GG at rs1291382, which is the Herc2 gene, plus GG at rs16891982 which is SLC45A2, and AA at rs1426654, which is SLC24A5. All three must be present and homozygous.

    Non light skin color, i.e. medium or dark is predicted by GG at rs6119471 on the ASIP gene.

    As for La Brana, he is derived homozygous C on rs6119471 on the ASIP gene, which is considered a weak effect gene. He is also homozygous for the derived GG on the Herc2 rs12913832 snp, and heterozygous T on IRF4, rs2203592, which is considered a medium effect gene. So, he has a total of 5 out of 14 possible snps on the test, although as used, there is a qualitative criteria instead of a merely additive one.

    As the authors mentioned in the text of the paper itself, La Brana is also heterozygous derived C for TYRP1, rs1408799, which is also implicated in relation to eye color.

    Applying the standard forensics criteria, he would be predicted as having dark skin.
    Great info Angela. Would you mind picking a picture and posting it at this thread, the way you think La Brana looked?
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-were?p=425880
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  8. #33
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,862

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicpourer View Post
    Moesan:

    Recent paper on C6 La Brana is source.

    Here on Eupedia check out thread titled "What Y-DNA haplogroup(s) will be found in the Mesolithic Iberian samples?" Specifically see post #111 offered by Aberdeen (Sile linked the entire paper)-- start where light and dark skin alleles are addressed.

    Cannot copy and paste for some reason.

    Also anyone else notice it's getting tougher to research thread topics on Eupedia?

    thanks Nordicpourer
    in the meanwhile I had found some stuff - but I'll go to others if I can - all the way it confirms the complex skin colour control in human beings -
    some of the mutations concern a strong eye-hair imput associated to a weak skin imput when others seemignly concerning only skin, have a far stronger imput...
    all the way the SLC24A5 seems the more level among "white people" but I'm not sure it is linked only to supposed I-Ean Y-R1b and Y-R1a people even if the thought is tempting - the problem is the mutation date of apparition opposed to the mutation date of overwhelming gain in %s...
    concerning La Brana 1 I red some funny posts in other blogs where it was spoken of 'african traits' and 'black skin'... the sense of proportion, always!

  9. #34
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,862

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    It doesn't? Has anyone checked or is it an assumption? I think there will be people alive in the north/northwest of Europe who have MC1R or IRF4 **without** the SLC genes and I bet they're half white and half brown, i.e. freckled.
    I bet they're half white and half brown, i.e. freckled.[/QUOTE]

    ??? ???
    amazing affirmation:
    I noticed that very often, pale skinned freckled people of Birttany had roughly no big differences in freckles frequency however they were dark, middle or light haired, but very often the lighter haired had lighter freckles and darker haired darker freckles -
    Since long ago I think the freckles system is less a deficit in pigment (even if this deficit exists in some way) than a defect in distribution of this pigment, when people are supposed to tan under sun action - all the way, I saw a lot of red haired and others pale skinned Bretons and Britain people or Commonwealth people who were covered by a dense net of freckles during Summer with a reddish hue of the non freckled skin zones (brick colour) but the majority of these freckles disappeared during winter -
    so I consider a freckles all covered man during summer NOT AS A HALF BROWN HALF WHITE MAN, but as a TANNED WHITE MAN: who would tell a tanned blond boer of South-Africa or Swede or even Italian is an hereditary brown skinned man???

  10. #35
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    01-02-14
    Posts
    14

    MtDNA haplogroup
    A2f1a

    Ethnic group
    Anishinaabe
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Since long ago I think the freckles system is less a deficit in pigment (even if this deficit exists in some way) than a defect in distribution of this pigment, when people are supposed to tan under sun action
    Freckles are likely to be a protective response of skin to the sun’s harmful rays.



    In fact, tanning may be the same response, since it has been shown that repeated/excessive tanning results in skin damage. Skin damage caused by excessive tanning likely is the result of exceeding the skins ability to provide protection.

  11. #36
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    "I bet they're half white and half brown, i.e. freckled."
    ??? ???
    amazing affirmation:
    I noticed that very often, pale skinned freckled people of Birttany had roughly no big differences in freckles frequency however they were dark, middle or light haired, but very often the lighter haired had lighter freckles and darker haired darker freckles -
    Since long ago I think the freckles system is less a deficit in pigment (even if this deficit exists in some way) than a defect in distribution of this pigment, when people are supposed to tan under sun action - all the way, I saw a lot of red haired and others pale skinned Bretons and Britain people or Commonwealth people who were covered by a dense net of freckles during Summer with a reddish hue of the non freckled skin zones (brick colour) but the majority of these freckles disappeared during winter -
    so I consider a freckles all covered man during summer NOT AS A HALF BROWN HALF WHITE MAN, but as a TANNED WHITE MAN: who would tell a tanned blond boer of South-Africa or Swede or even Italian is an hereditary brown skinned man???
    Yes that's my view, freckles over light skin was the early version of protection from the sun after an early depigmentation similar to the way Neanderthals were partially depigmented (and possibly related to Neanderthal admixture in some way) which was then gradually replaced by the full tanning version provided by the SLC genes that came with the farmers later - and Brittany, like Scotland / Ireland / Norway is the sort of place to see it.

  12. #37
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,261


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Yes that's my view, freckles over light skin was the early version of protection from the sun after an early depigmentation similar to the way Neanderthals were partially depigmented (and possibly related to Neanderthal admixture in some way) which was then gradually replaced by the full tanning version provided by the SLC genes that came with the farmers later - and Brittany, like Scotland / Ireland / Norway is the sort of place to see it.
    Northwest Europeans have been tested in many pigmentation studies, and they are 100% SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. In fact, virtually all Europeans are SLC24A5, and about 97% are SLC42A5. The Europeans who are negative for SLC42A5 are in far southern Europe. In fact, a lot of them are in Sardinia, and I don't think you're going to find that the ones without that snp but with MCIR are pale skinned and freckled.

    If somebody in Northwest Europe with pale skin turns up who doesn't have those snps, and only has the minor MCIR one, the drink is on me.

  13. #38
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Northwest Europeans have been tested in many pigmentation studies, and they are 100% SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. In fact, virtually all Europeans are SLC24A5, and about 97% are SLC42A5. The Europeans who are negative for SLC42A5 are in far southern Europe. In fact, a lot of them are in Sardinia, and I don't think you're going to find that the ones without that snp but with MCIR are pale skinned and freckled.

    If somebody in Northwest Europe with pale skin turns up who doesn't have those snps, and only has the minor MCIR one, the drink is on me.
    Well I think we will one way or another. Assuming the data isn't already available sitting in a medical study somewhere. a study into rare skin problems among Irish descent people in Australia for example, then via the Neanderthal introgression. For example, if they were dark-skinned why select for Neanderthal freckling genes? But yes, there's no point going round in circles over it.

  14. #39
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    La Brana-1 has a rare subclade of Y DNA C(C1a2-V20) which has only been found in Europe and has been hypothesized to be very descended of pre farming people of Europe. It is not known what skin color he had. He is missing mutations that are supposed to cause light skin in Europe, but are widespread and popular outside of Europe in west asia, north africa, and south asia. Determining hair and eye color is much more accurate, and he probably had dark hair and light eyes, like two other Mesolithic Europeans tested for many of the same pigmentation associated SNPs. It's a good guess that Mesolithic Europeans had dark skin.

  15. #40
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Northwest Europeans have been tested in many pigmentation studies, and they are 100% SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. In fact, virtually all Europeans are SLC24A5, and about 97% are SLC42A5. The Europeans who are negative for SLC42A5 are in far southern Europe. In fact, a lot of them are in Sardinia, and I don't think you're going to find that the ones without that snp but with MCIR are pale skinned and freckled.

    If somebody in Northwest Europe with pale skin turns up who doesn't have those snps, and only has the minor MCIR one, the drink is on me.
    Another tack on the same MC1R question which is possibly easier to prove (if the idea is correct), mixed race couples

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...cond-time.html

    Red-haired female implying 2 x MC1R, with a non-white father and twins, including light-skinned and red-haired implying the father also carries recessive MC1R also.

    edit: Also, if it is shown that MC1R does depigment the skin also then IRF4 may follow the same pattern.

  16. #41
    Landlord
    Join Date
    11-05-14
    Location
    Da Great White North
    Posts
    87

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    1/4 Sephardic 3/4 Ashkenazi
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Damm, it seems Mesolithic Europe was filled with exotic haplogroups. I hope they'lle release more information about Ancient DNA in the future. I've red somewhere that Swedish Mesolithic hunter-gatherers not only had the alleles for light skin and light eyes like this La Brana guy they had quite a lot of Sub-Saharan admixture(around 20% if I recall right). Wonder what these folks' Y-chromosome or mtDNA haplogroups might be. Perhaps this could explain all the mtDNA L lineages found in Europe( from Spain to Finland) as well as the SSA-like Y-DNA(A3b2,A1a*,E1a1,E1b1a*) popping up in places such as eastern England,Cantabria and Scotland. Ironically, thes could predate the more stereotypical European markers by millenia. If so, gotta love how Stormfront members will react!

  17. #42
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    La Brana-1 has a rare subclade of Y DNA C(C1a2-V20) which has only been found in Europe and has been hypothesized to be very descended of pre farming people of Europe. It is not known what skin color he had. He is missing mutations that are supposed to cause light skin in Europe, but are widespread and popular outside of Europe in west asia, north africa, and south asia. Determining hair and eye color is much more accurate, and he probably had dark hair and light eyes, like two other Mesolithic Europeans tested for many of the same pigmentation associated SNPs. It's a good guess that Mesolithic Europeans had dark skin.
    The La Brana has been seperated for tens of thousands of years from his brothers, the other C-clades.
    By 8000 years ago he must have looked much more like the other mesolithic people in Europe - mainly I-clade - than his brother C-clades in Asia or America.

  18. #43
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,261


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Another tack on the same MC1R question which is possibly easier to prove (if the idea is correct), mixed race couples

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...cond-time.html

    Red-haired female implying 2 x MC1R, with a non-white father and twins, including light-skinned and red-haired implying the father also carries recessive MC1R also.

    edit: Also, if it is shown that MC1R does depigment the skin also then IRF4 may follow the same pattern.
    Obviously, the reporters at the Daily Mail don't know very many mixed race couples. (The woman also looks mixed to me, btw.)It isn't at all extraordinary in such cases that the children can look very different from one another. I know one couple very well where the wife is a dark skinned African American and the man, although with some African ancestry, looks "white". They have three children. One daughter looks like a relatively dark African American, one looks virtually white, so much so that people don't think she's the child of her mother, and one who looks like what we in the states would call "Hispanic" looking. That's what can happen when you have random combination of all those genes.

    What is known from scientific studies is that when African Americans with lighter skin are compared to actual Africans, the difference is that the African Americans carry one copy of SLC24A5 and/or one copy of SLC42A5. If both or one parent in addition carried a copy of the MCIR gene then a "reddish" hue may appear in the children. Malcolm X is a famous example...his nickname as a young man was "Red".

    The people who are the subject of this Daily Mail article will have copies of both SLC24A5 and SLC42A5, and probably MCIR. In combination.

    This is not rocket science. There are numerous studies about this issue. I've posted them numerous times. If you don't wish to read them or believe them, that's your prerogative.

  19. #44
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Obviously, the reporters at the Daily Mail don't know very many mixed race couples. (The woman also looks mixed to me, btw.)It isn't at all extraordinary in such cases that the children can look very different from one another. I know one couple very well where the wife is a dark skinned African American and the man, although with some African ancestry, looks "white". They have three children. One daughter looks like a relatively dark African American, one looks virtually white, so much so that people don't think she's the child of her mother, and one who looks like what we in the states would call "Hispanic" looking. That's what can happen when you have random combination of all those genes.

    What is known from scientific studies is that when African Americans with lighter skin are compared to actual Africans, the difference is that the African Americans carry one copy of SLC24A5 and/or one copy of SLC42A5. If both or one parent in addition carried a copy of the MCIR gene then a "reddish" hue may appear in the children. Malcolm X is a famous example...his nickname as a young man was "Red".

    The people who are the subject of this Daily Mail article will have copies of both SLC24A5 and SLC42A5, and probably MCIR. In combination.

    This is not rocket science. There are numerous studies about this issue. I've posted them numerous times. If you don't wish to read them or believe them, that's your prerogative.
    You're right it's not rocket science. There is a clearly described phenotype - red hair - with a known cause - imbalance between eumelanin and pheomelanin - and genes that are known to create that imbalance - MC1R - and some people who don't want to admit it might effect skin color as well as hair and eye color.

    My post illustrates another way of potentially proving it i.e. mixed race couples where one parent had red hair (2 x MC1R) and the other was a recessive carrier of MC1R and then by checking which of the various genes got passed to which kids it could be discovered if MC1R had a skin depigmentation effect which is mostly masked in white people by the other skin lightening genes.

    Then we'd know if Europeans - or some of them at least - got lighter much earlier for vitamin D reasons.

    Plus of course as this is related to the Plex system it would be important there also.

  20. #45
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,261


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    You're right it's not rocket science. There is a clearly described phenotype - red hair - with a known cause - imbalance between eumelanin and pheomelanin - and genes that are known to create that imbalance - MC1R - and some people who don't want to admit it might effect skin color as well as hair and eye color.

    My post illustrates another way of potentially proving it i.e. mixed race couples where one parent had red hair (2 x MC1R) and the other was a recessive carrier of MC1R and then by checking which of the various genes got passed to which kids it could be discovered if MC1R had a skin depigmentation effect which is mostly masked in white people by the other skin lightening genes.

    Then we'd know if Europeans - or some of them at least - got lighter much earlier for vitamin D reasons.

    Plus of course as this is related to the Plex system it would be important there also.

    The most reasonable assumption is that these people, like all other light skinned SSA admixed people, have light skin because they have inherited copies of SLC24A5 and SLC42A5. That's what all the studies show which have actually looked at the genetics of light skinned SSA admixed people. Did you think no studies had been done of them? That's where most of this research started. NONE of the SSA admixed "light" people studied to date have only had the minor alleles. Scientists have concluded that MCIR has an effect on pigmentation which is minor and works in conjunction with the major affect alleles. You are presenting absolutely no data that contradicts any of this.

    Please read the scientific papers if you wish to argue the point.

    As to the precise mechanism for the spread of these alleles, I don't think we yet have enough information, although it seems that SLC24A5 spread from an area somewhere between the Middle East and Central Asia. The data is less clear for SLC42A5. It also seems that although they appeared sporadically in Europe before the Neolithic, widespread distribution seems to come much later in European history. For example, one Mesolithic HG in the far northeast had one copy of SLC42A5, but all of the hunter-gatherers from the same location more than a thousand years later lacked any of these major affect alleles. There was also one SLC24A5 result. Loschbour and La Brana certainly lacked them. Stuttgart had SLC24A5, and Oetzi had the modern European signature, as he carried copies of both SLC24A5 and SLC42A5. (That's the simplified version.) That's about all we know for now.

  21. #46
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Angela, there are other causes to European light skin. I have posted this maybe 1,000,000 times, yet people still stubbornly believe these mutations are only European and explain their light skin. I found many Europeans at GEDmatch missing these mutations, but their skin is light. People forget that one of the mutation sin gene SLC45A2 is also associated with hair color, if you have the ancestral alleles you are more likely to have dark hair. Middle easterns have the exact same frequencies of known "European" light skin mutations as do Europeans, except they have a little less of one in gene SLC45A2, because of hair color difference.

    The skin color of these Mesolithic Europeans is unknown. There is just as good a chance they had light skin as there is they had dark skin. If you believe these mutations really cause European light skin, then middle easterns and Mesolithic European Motala12 should be/have been light skin/light skinned.

  22. #47
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,261


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Angela, there are other causes to European light skin. I have posted this maybe 1,000,000 times, yet people still stubbornly believe these mutations are only European and explain their light skin. I found many Europeans at GEDmatch missing these mutations, but their skin is light. People forget that one of the mutation sin gene SLC45A2 is also associated with hair color, if you have the ancestral alleles you are more likely to have dark hair. Middle easterns have the exact same frequencies of known "European" light skin mutations as do Europeans, except they have a little less of one in gene SLC45A2, because of hair color difference.

    The skin color of these Mesolithic Europeans is unknown. There is just as good a chance they had light skin as there is they had dark skin. If you believe these mutations really cause European light skin, then middle easterns and Mesolithic European Motala12 should be/have been light skin/light skinned.
    Silly me, I trust scientific studies more than your analysis of the alleles present in some anonymous people on Gedmatch in comparison to their subjective reports of their skin color or to photos sent of who knows whom over the internet. This is not how one reaches reasonable conclusions.

    One also has to remove from one's mind all of the stereotypes and prejudices which one might have unfortunately absorbed and try to look at the data objectively. Has it ever occurred to either of you to examine the idea of just why the idea that Mesolithic hunter gatherers from northern Europe were dark skinned is so upsetting to you?

    I am going to say this one more time. The effect of these alleles is CUMULATIVE! That is what the scientific analysis shows. When you have a scientific study that says otherwise, let me know, as I would be very interested in discussing it. Likewise, when you have a scientific study which shows that a person with "light" European reflectance values does not have either SLC24A5 or SLC42A5 in addition to the minor alleles, let me know. Until then, you can post your anecdote ten million times, and it still has no probative value.

    Also, please stop setting up straw man arguments. I never said that Middle Eastern people are as fair skinned, on average, as the average European. How could that be the case if these alleles have a cumulative effect, given that Middle Easterners (that is the correct term by the way) have much less SLC42A5, and further, given the different levels of UV radiation in most of the Middle East from those present in Europe, especially central and northern Europe? Try to follow the logic.

    Based on the data we have so far, the only way that Mesolithic hunter gatherers in northern Europe could have predominantly had light skin is if that trait resulted from a so far unknown set of alleles, which apparently have no effect on modern Europeans, whose variation in terms of pigmentation can be very well explained by the presence and/or absence of the alleles we have been discussing. If that makes you feel better, by all means believe it. Humans have a great capacity to believe things for which they have no proof when it suits their emotional needs.

    As for me, I have no personal stake in the matter. If the data changes, my opinions will change.

  23. #48
    Red Baron Engel's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-02-14
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    78

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1

    Ethnic group
    Aryan
    Country: USA - Texas



    ja, the woman in the daily mail article is also mixed from middle east

  24. #49
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    One also has to remove from one's mind all of the stereotypes and prejudices which one might have unfortunately absorbed and try to look at the data objectively. Has it ever occurred to either of you to examine the idea of just why the idea that Mesolithic hunter gatherers from northern Europe were dark skinned is so upsetting to you?
    I don't let prejudices effect how I make my conclusions. I am perfectly fine with my Mesolithic ancestors having dark skin. I have dark skinned people within my own family(there are multiple), who i love and have seen everyday of my life. If I am raciest towards dark skinned people then I am raciest towards my family. The fact that I am 12.5% Puerto Rican(3.5% Native American, 1% African, 8% Spanish), doesn't allow me to be some type of Nordicist.

    Silly me, I trust scientific studies more than your analysis of the alleles present in some anonymous people on Gedmatch in comparison to their subjective reports of their skin color or to photos sent of who knows whom over the internet. This is not how one reaches reasonable conclusions.
    I found real northwest European people(could test their ancestry with admixtures at GEDmatch) who are missing 'European" light skin mutations, as did Mesolithic Europeans La Brana-1, Motala12, and Ajv58. All of them had light skin. They sent pictures to confirm. All of them were very interested about how unique they were, and described themselves as dark skinned, but their pictures showed the truth. I trust those pictures were their's, because they looked like family pictures.

    I also compared an Arab and northwest European who had the same alleles in SNPs associated with skin color, and both were missing the hair and skin color associated SNP in SLC45A5. I did not get any pictures, but the Arab described himself as a light-skinned middle eastern not European type, whatever that means. The northwest European described himself as ivory skinned with great tanning ability, and described siblings as Mexican dark. Like others he was very excited about the news, and wanted to be a dark skinned Mesolithic European. One of the others said the same thing but turned out to be very light.

    I never said that Middle Eastern people are as fair skinned, on average, as the average European. How could that be the case if these alleles have a cumulative effect, given that Middle Easterners (that is the correct term by the way) have much less SLC42A5, and further, given the different levels of UV radiation in most of the Middle East from those present in Europe, especially central and northern Europe? Try to follow the logic.
    I have looked at the numbers, there is no differences between Europeans and middle easterns. The only difference is the mutation in gene SLC45A2(in SNP rs16891982), which is about 50% in the middle east and 80-100% in Europe, and that difference is because of hair color. That mutation is also less popular in southern Europe than in northern Europe, because of hair color difference. These mutations can't explain the skin color difference between northern and southern Europeans, and between Europeans and middle easterns.

    Based on the data we have so far, the only way that Mesolithic hunter gatherers in northern Europe could have predominantly had light skin is if that trait resulted from a so far unknown set of alleles, which apparently have no effect on modern Europeans, whose variation in terms of pigmentation can be very well explained by the presence and/or absence of the alleles we have been discussing. If that makes you feel better, by all means believe it. Humans have a great capacity to believe things for which they have no proof when it suits their emotional needs.
    That is not true. Middle eastern and Europeans lacking light skin mutations, are great evidence that there are unknown European light skin mutations. Mesolithic Europeans may be the source, and therefore had similar light skin as do modern Europeans. Also, Mesolithic Swede Motala12 is constant with having light skin. Do you really think skin color varied in small Mesolithic European tribes from white to brown?

    You need to understand that the skin color of these Mesolithic Europeans is unknown, and there are unknown European light skin mutations.

    Do these 15,000 year old west Europeans look dark skinned? I doubt the carvings are authentically 15,000 years old, because of the modern-like clothing.

  25. #50
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Angela, the reason i seem to only argue for the light skinned-side is because everyone else is blindly on the dark skinned-side, and i am tired of how people who are raciest towards Europeans reacted. People assume the science behind skin color is known, when I have actually read scientific papers that say the opposite. Olalde 2014 was very hesitant to say La Brana-1 had dark skin, and admitted it is just the best guess. My opinon is that the skin color of Mesolithic Europeans is a mystery, and may never be known until time machines.

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •