Brown-skinned, blue-eyed, Y-haplogroup C-bearing European hunter-gatherer from Spain

I didn't want to say anything, for fear of offending some reader who is similarly afflicted, but I have to say that I think the unfortunate young man would be chosen last. :petrified:

Even if someone were partial to freckles, I think this might be too much...
 
There's an existing thread on Eupedia that covers most of this material already, it may be worth checking through that one.

As I mentioned on it, we now know of at least seven alleles that contribute to less pigmented skin color. La Brana had three of the seven, and two of these alleles were copied on both sides (from each parent). For a modern reference point, I would place his tone somewhere in the Native American range.

Have you some references for this affirmation (less pigmented skin genes several mutations)? Because it confirms some intuition of mine
thanks
 
There's an existing thread on Eupedia that covers most of this material already, it may be worth checking through that one.

As I mentioned on it, we now know of at least seven alleles that contribute to less pigmented skin color. La Brana had three of the seven, and two of these alleles were copied on both sides (from each parent). For a modern reference point, I would place his tone somewhere in the Native American range.

have you some references about these 7 mutations? because it confirms some bets of mine - thanks for giving the link -
 
I'm confused. My initial comment on this thread addressed the fact that it was basically a duplicate topic.

Nevertheless, here's a few additional quips....

1. I've never seen an actual person look like this poor fellow (other than this photo). Strangely enough, the individual with the heaviest amount of freckling I've ever encountered in real life (and he had but a small fraction of freckles compared to our afflicated subject) was 100% Irish. Go figure.

2. We may not be defining sexual selection in the same way... let's use a hypothetical case. It's 1,100 years ago and we're sitting on the banks of the Volga. A Swedish Viking party drifts by and we watch as they are busy dividing their recently captured female slaves from a raiding party into "keepers" (ie. breeding partners) and ones that will be taken to market in Constantinople. We notice an obvious trend in their decision making...

What if these Vikings keep all the blonde haired, blue-eyed buxom women for themselves and trade the darker, brunette females for silver... is this sexual selection? I would think so. Before you dismiss this scenerio as farcical... please review the Norse tales of Rig.

Of course this Viking raiding party would have taken place a few thousand years AFTER my proposed SLC positive group first arrived in what we now call Europe. The selective actions of this hypothetical Viking construct would only further accent the pigmentation differences we see in Northern climes (or rather lack of pigmentation we see in the North).

"I've never seen an actual person look like this poor fellow (other than this photo)."

I have - a dozen or so over the years, all in remote parts of Britain and Ireland.

"Strangely enough, the individual with the heaviest amount of freckling I've ever encountered in real life (and he had but a small fraction of freckles compared to our afflicated subject) was 100% Irish. Go figure."

Not strange at all. Northwest Europe: Ireland, Scotland, Norway - furthest away from the farmers and SLC24A5. Exactly where you'd expect to see the last survivors of the original Euro phenotype.
 
Greying Wanderer said:
Not strange at all. Northwest Europe: Ireland, Scotland, Norway - furthest away from the farmers and SLC24A5. Exactly where you'd expect to see the last survivors of the original Euro phenotype.

Unlikely, because genetic evidence tells us otherwise. Northwest Europe was too poor for both hunter-gatherers and farmers. Only bronze-age metal workers knew what to do there. The last paleolithic survivors dwelled in the northern forests and most of them speak finno-ugric today.
 
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Unlikely, because genetic evidence tells us otherwise. Northwest Europe was too poor for both hunter-gatherers and farmers. Only bronze-age metal workers knew what to do there. The last paleolithic survivors dwelled in the northern forests and most of them speak finno-ugric today.

So no farmers in the Isles to bring SLC24A5 until much later then. And the northwest corner having the most surviving red hair. And all the ancient writers mentioning red hair from Libya to the border with China. Sounds to me like the red haired, pale skinned euro phenotype was different to the current euro phenotype and has been retreating to the northwest for a long time in sequence with the increase in frequency of an improved de-pigmenting allele from the southeast.

If people look they're going to find the red hair phenotype is a kind of partial form of albinism with fewer side-effects: red hair, light eyes, pale skin, brown freckles.

.

Separately

"The last paleolithic survivors dwelled in the northern forests"

I1 bottleneck i.e. dramatic population increase, matches Funnelbeaker.
 
I have seen people like that extremely freckled fellow, and of all the odd places , in Afghanistan and Korea. Dark skinned with very pale blue eyes, not far, in India.
 

[FONT=&quot]According to Encyclopedia Britannia where it talks about the inhabitants of the Canary Islands off the coast of Morocco, it says: “... Both aboriginal groups had brown complexion, blue or gray eyes, and blondish hair, and these characteristics still persist in a large number of present inhabitants of the islands, but otherwise they are scarcely distinguishable in appearance or culture from the people of Spain.”:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...he-and-Canario [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Wonder if it’s our La Brana guys, or a related people.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]In this table:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCYQ FjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plosgenetics.org%2Fartic le%2FfetchSingleRepresentation.action%3Furi%3Dinfo %3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296.s004&ei=q1 zwUruIKKiIyAHlwIGgBA&usg=AFQjCNH4DOx_NCUiWp0LFrX2i cc8eToTYg&bvm=bv.60444564,d.aWc[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they have a listing of samples displaying HVR-I sequences possibly belonging to mtdna C1. There's one possible C1 there listed as being from the Canary Islands that has no exact matches on the list. There are some Mesolithic C1’s dated to 7,500 ybp found in northwest Russia listed here: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml They have some of the same mutations, but seem to have a mutation that the Canary Islander doesn’t have. The Canary Islander doesn’t seem to have all the mutations that the Icelandic C1e’s in the table have either. (Although one “German” sample in the table does match those “Icelander” samples)

Edit: These samples in the second link I provided just display the HVR-I sequences, so are not full displays of the haplogroup membership criteria. And it is possible that the Canary Islander and the German sample don't meet the full criteria for belonging to mtdna haplogroup C1.
I also don’t mean to confuse mtdna C with ydna C here -- just looking for patterns in the available data.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 
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If one has been to the Canary islands, one would see many modern Germans or British living there with what could be called that Britannica "brown complexion" or perhaps darker than what this may meant. And I think their blonde or light eyes found among Gwanchies, can be found among Moroccans of today and before, and these could have come from the Mtdna haplogroups still present in there (or/and from their "mate Y-haplogroups") carried by the original Paleolithic Maurusians that moved to North Africa from Iberia earlier, or those that came from the East of Egypt along the Mediterranean coastline. Ancient Libyans as Phoenicians were known to be light-eyed, however understood today as just swarthy Mediterraneans
 
Sorry, but you're all confused here. La Brana had the ancestral allele on SLC24A5, not the derived one that is in almost 100% of Europeans. The derived one causes the lightening of skin by 25-40%, not the one that La Brana had. La Brana had the allele that is in 93-100% of Sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Native Americans. In fact, he apparently has the same ones we find in current Sri Lankans, Papuans and Aborigines. The freckle alleles can appear in all races, they don't show on darker people of course. Skin color is not important for the freckle allele. La Brana was quite dark skinned.
 
I found a study in my saved files that looked at the global distribution of commonly tested snps for skin de-pigmentation.

The full Norton et al paper can be found here: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.full

This handy table lists the snps, the gene in which they appear, and the global distribution. The MATP gene is the one in which SLC42A5 can be found. SLC24A5, SLC42A5, and TYR together account for the vast majority of the variation between SSAs and Eruopeans.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710/T1.expansion.html

This table provides the exact percentages in list form for five snps by Hap Map population.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2006/12/21/msl203.DC1/mbe-06-0529-File010_msl203.

I checked for all of them in the supplement of the Olade paper, and other than ASIP rs6058017, which I couldnt find, the others were tested, and La Brana was ancestral for all of them.

I also found it helpful to read the following forensics paper, where they make it clear that in order for the probabilities to be reliable for lighter skin pigmentation, the sample must be homozygous for three certain high value snps. Even for medium skin, the sample must be homozygous for at least two of a set of snps. When all criteria are met, the false prediction rate is 1%. The forensics test uses some of the snps used by Norton et al, namely SLC45A2 and 24A5, but not all of them, and includes other snps associated with pigmentation.
https://ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/242774.pdf

From the forensics paper... Non-dark skin color (i.e. light or medium) is predicted by any two of the following
alleles, GG at rs12913832'Herc2, GG at rs16891982'SLC45A2, AA at rs1426654'SLC24A5, TT at rs1545397'OCA2, or AA at MCIR rs885479.


Light skin color is predicted by more stringent conditions, GG at rs1291382, which is the Herc2 gene, plus GG at rs16891982 which is SLC45A2, and AA at rs1426654, which is SLC24A5. All three must be present and homozygous.

Non light skin color, i.e. medium or dark is predicted by GG at rs6119471 on the ASIP gene.

As for La Brana, he is derived homozygous C on rs6119471 on the ASIP gene, which is considered a weak effect gene. He is also homozygous for the derived GG on the Herc2 rs12913832 snp, and heterozygous T on IRF4, rs2203592, which is considered a medium effect gene. So, he has a total of 5 out of 14 possible snps on the test, although as used, there is a qualitative criteria instead of a merely additive one.

As the authors mentioned in the text of the paper itself, La Brana is also heterozygous derived C for TYRP1, rs1408799, which is also implicated in relation to eye color.

Applying the standard forensics criteria, he would be predicted as having dark skin.
 
I found a study in my saved files that looked at the global distribution of commonly tested snps for skin de-pigmentation.

The full Norton et al paper can be found here: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.full

This handy table lists the snps, the gene in which they appear, and the global distribution. The MATP gene is the one in which SLC42A5 can be found. SLC24A5, SLC42A5, and TYR together account for the vast majority of the variation between SSAs and Eruopeans.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710/T1.expansion.html

This table provides the exact percentages in list form for five snps by Hap Map population.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2006/12/21/msl203.DC1/mbe-06-0529-File010_msl203.

I checked for all of them in the supplement of the Olade paper, and other than ASIP rs6058017, which I couldnt find, the others were tested, and La Brana was ancestral for all of them.

I also found it helpful to read the following forensics paper, where they make it clear that in order for the probabilities to be reliable for lighter skin pigmentation, the sample must be homozygous for three certain high value snps. Even for medium skin, the sample must be homozygous for at least two of a set of snps. When all criteria are met, the false prediction rate is 1%. The forensics test uses some of the snps used by Norton et al, namely SLC45A2 and 24A5, but not all of them, and includes other snps associated with pigmentation.
https://ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/242774.pdf

From the forensics paper... Non-dark skin color (i.e. light or medium) is predicted by any two of the following
alleles, GG at rs12913832'Herc2, GG at rs16891982'SLC45A2, AA at rs1426654'SLC24A5, TT at rs1545397'OCA2, or AA at MCIR rs885479.


Light skin color is predicted by more stringent conditions, GG at rs1291382, which is the Herc2 gene, plus GG at rs16891982 which is SLC45A2, and AA at rs1426654, which is SLC24A5. All three must be present and homozygous.

Non light skin color, i.e. medium or dark is predicted by GG at rs6119471 on the ASIP gene.

As for La Brana, he is derived homozygous C on rs6119471 on the ASIP gene, which is considered a weak effect gene. He is also homozygous for the derived GG on the Herc2 rs12913832 snp, and heterozygous T on IRF4, rs2203592, which is considered a medium effect gene. So, he has a total of 5 out of 14 possible snps on the test, although as used, there is a qualitative criteria instead of a merely additive one.

As the authors mentioned in the text of the paper itself, La Brana is also heterozygous derived C for TYRP1, rs1408799, which is also implicated in relation to eye color.

Applying the standard forensics criteria, he would be predicted as having dark skin.
Great info Angela. Would you mind picking a picture and posting it at this thread, the way you think La Brana looked?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29511-How-dark-the-Neolithic-Europeans-were?p=425880
 
Moesan:

Recent paper on C6 La Brana is source.

Here on Eupedia check out thread titled "What Y-DNA haplogroup(s) will be found in the Mesolithic Iberian samples?" Specifically see post #111 offered by Aberdeen (Sile linked the entire paper)-- start where light and dark skin alleles are addressed.

Cannot copy and paste for some reason.

Also anyone else notice it's getting tougher to research thread topics on Eupedia?


thanks Nordicpourer
in the meanwhile I had found some stuff - but I'll go to others if I can - all the way it confirms the complex skin colour control in human beings -
some of the mutations concern a strong eye-hair imput associated to a weak skin imput when others seemignly concerning only skin, have a far stronger imput...
all the way the SLC24A5 seems the more level among "white people" but I'm not sure it is linked only to supposed I-Ean Y-R1b and Y-R1a people even if the thought is tempting - the problem is the mutation date of apparition opposed to the mutation date of overwhelming gain in %s...
concerning La Brana 1 I red some funny posts in other blogs where it was spoken of 'african traits' and 'black skin'... the sense of proportion, always!
 
It doesn't? Has anyone checked or is it an assumption? I think there will be people alive in the north/northwest of Europe who have MC1R or IRF4 **without** the SLC genes and I bet they're half white and half brown, i.e. freckled.

I bet they're half white and half brown, i.e. freckled.[/QUOTE]

??? ???
amazing affirmation:
I noticed that very often, pale skinned freckled people of Birttany had roughly no big differences in freckles frequency however they were dark, middle or light haired, but very often the lighter haired had lighter freckles and darker haired darker freckles -
Since long ago I think the freckles system is less a deficit in pigment (even if this deficit exists in some way) than a defect in distribution of this pigment, when people are supposed to tan under sun action - all the way, I saw a lot of red haired and others pale skinned Bretons and Britain people or Commonwealth people who were covered by a dense net of freckles during Summer with a reddish hue of the non freckled skin zones (brick colour) but the majority of these freckles disappeared during winter -
so I consider a freckles all covered man during summer NOT AS A HALF BROWN HALF WHITE MAN, but as a TANNED WHITE MAN: who would tell a tanned blond boer of South-Africa or Swede or even Italian is an hereditary brown skinned man???
 
Since long ago I think the freckles system is less a deficit in pigment (even if this deficit exists in some way) than a defect in distribution of this pigment, when people are supposed to tan under sun action

Freckles are likely to be a protective response of skin to the sun’s harmful rays.



In fact, tanning may be the same response, since it has been shown that repeated/excessive tanning results in skin damage. Skin damage caused by excessive tanning likely is the result of exceeding the skins ability to provide protection.
 
"I bet they're half white and half brown, i.e. freckled."
??? ???
amazing affirmation:
I noticed that very often, pale skinned freckled people of Birttany had roughly no big differences in freckles frequency however they were dark, middle or light haired, but very often the lighter haired had lighter freckles and darker haired darker freckles -
Since long ago I think the freckles system is less a deficit in pigment (even if this deficit exists in some way) than a defect in distribution of this pigment, when people are supposed to tan under sun action - all the way, I saw a lot of red haired and others pale skinned Bretons and Britain people or Commonwealth people who were covered by a dense net of freckles during Summer with a reddish hue of the non freckled skin zones (brick colour) but the majority of these freckles disappeared during winter -
so I consider a freckles all covered man during summer NOT AS A HALF BROWN HALF WHITE MAN, but as a TANNED WHITE MAN: who would tell a tanned blond boer of South-Africa or Swede or even Italian is an hereditary brown skinned man???

Yes that's my view, freckles over light skin was the early version of protection from the sun after an early depigmentation similar to the way Neanderthals were partially depigmented (and possibly related to Neanderthal admixture in some way) which was then gradually replaced by the full tanning version provided by the SLC genes that came with the farmers later - and Brittany, like Scotland / Ireland / Norway is the sort of place to see it.
 
Yes that's my view, freckles over light skin was the early version of protection from the sun after an early depigmentation similar to the way Neanderthals were partially depigmented (and possibly related to Neanderthal admixture in some way) which was then gradually replaced by the full tanning version provided by the SLC genes that came with the farmers later - and Brittany, like Scotland / Ireland / Norway is the sort of place to see it.

Northwest Europeans have been tested in many pigmentation studies, and they are 100% SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. In fact, virtually all Europeans are SLC24A5, and about 97% are SLC42A5. The Europeans who are negative for SLC42A5 are in far southern Europe. In fact, a lot of them are in Sardinia, and I don't think you're going to find that the ones without that snp but with MCIR are pale skinned and freckled.

If somebody in Northwest Europe with pale skin turns up who doesn't have those snps, and only has the minor MCIR one, the drink is on me. :)
 
Northwest Europeans have been tested in many pigmentation studies, and they are 100% SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. In fact, virtually all Europeans are SLC24A5, and about 97% are SLC42A5. The Europeans who are negative for SLC42A5 are in far southern Europe. In fact, a lot of them are in Sardinia, and I don't think you're going to find that the ones without that snp but with MCIR are pale skinned and freckled.

If somebody in Northwest Europe with pale skin turns up who doesn't have those snps, and only has the minor MCIR one, the drink is on me. :)

Well I think we will one way or another. Assuming the data isn't already available sitting in a medical study somewhere. a study into rare skin problems among Irish descent people in Australia for example, then via the Neanderthal introgression. For example, if they were dark-skinned why select for Neanderthal freckling genes? But yes, there's no point going round in circles over it.
 
La Brana-1 has a rare subclade of Y DNA C(C1a2-V20) which has only been found in Europe and has been hypothesized to be very descended of pre farming people of Europe. It is not known what skin color he had. He is missing mutations that are supposed to cause light skin in Europe, but are widespread and popular outside of Europe in west asia, north africa, and south asia. Determining hair and eye color is much more accurate, and he probably had dark hair and light eyes, like two other Mesolithic Europeans tested for many of the same pigmentation associated SNPs. It's a good guess that Mesolithic Europeans had dark skin.
 
Northwest Europeans have been tested in many pigmentation studies, and they are 100% SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. In fact, virtually all Europeans are SLC24A5, and about 97% are SLC42A5. The Europeans who are negative for SLC42A5 are in far southern Europe. In fact, a lot of them are in Sardinia, and I don't think you're going to find that the ones without that snp but with MCIR are pale skinned and freckled.

If somebody in Northwest Europe with pale skin turns up who doesn't have those snps, and only has the minor MCIR one, the drink is on me. :)

Another tack on the same MC1R question which is possibly easier to prove (if the idea is correct), mixed race couples

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ple-birth-black-white-twins--second-time.html

Red-haired female implying 2 x MC1R, with a non-white father and twins, including light-skinned and red-haired implying the father also carries recessive MC1R also.

edit: Also, if it is shown that MC1R does depigment the skin also then IRF4 may follow the same pattern.
 

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