Brown-skinned, blue-eyed, Y-haplogroup C-bearing European hunter-gatherer from Spain

The argument isn't over whether the SLC genes are skin-lightening alleles. The argument is whether the red hair version of MC1R, and perhaps only when a person has two copies of it, depigments skin as well as creating red hair. As far as I can see no-one has tested for that and given that there are multiple written records of that phenotype ranging from Libya to Thrace to Western China it seems worth testing.

My point was that we already have a perfectly good explanation for European depigmentation. And, IMO, the fact that we have red haired, white skinned mummies in China and blue eyed blonds living in modern Kazakhstan is simply a function of the fact that ancient people wandered off to some fairly strange places. These people probably have the same mutations that explain depigmentation in European populations. If there's no body of evidence suggesting that the red hair gene can cause depigmentation without SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, maybe it's because you're chasing a phantom.
 
I have found multiple and all are light skinned.

Good for you. Now, raise some funds, and, after getting their permission, get and publish the skin reflectance results for these people, and their total genome results showing they have NONE of the major effect depigmentation genes. Until then, let's say that I'm skeptical. Just think of it as the first step on your way to an academic career.

You make alot of claims and never give sources.
[/QUOTE]

If you think that I'm going to repeat the links to all these studies every time I answer a post you are going to be sadly disappointed.

It isn't my responsibility to do everyone's homework as well as my own. I've done my bit by posting the links in the first place. I expect people to READ the papers in the relevant links provided BEFORE they continue to attack the findings of the papers. I'm totally open to any reasonable critique of said papers. It would be even nicer if people provided links to studies themselves, particularly if they present a point of view that contradicts the ones I found. Even if one can't arrive at an answer, at least the questions become clearer.

That's how intellectual analysis works.
 
What I said was, quoting myself

"Another tack on the same MC1R question which is possibly easier to prove (if the idea is correct), mixed race couples..."

- given the level of fixation of the SLC genes in Europeans - that mixed race couples where one parent had *red* hair i.e. 2 copies of the relevant MC1R gene and the other parent was a carrier of the same gene would be a good place to look.

And it would.

Why is the idea that some Europeans may have been light skinned earlier such a big deal. A similar phenotype exists today

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Common/India/Indian_Albinos/The_Bhatti.jpg

so why couldn't a modified version have developed and been selected for in the distant past - especially inland away from the coast?

For the record, I don't care if they were purple polka-dotted. I think this obsession with the whole topic is stupid. I thought we were finally done with it.

However, I am allergic to people making claims that are based on formulations like...well, isn't it possible that X could have happened. I suppose it's POSSIBLE that aliens came to earth periodically to give us tips on technology, but I don't know of any evidence to that effect. Is it therefore anything that I would ever give any head room to? The answer is no.

Everything I have seen so far indicates that pigmentation is a polygenic trait involving the interplay of numerous alleles. Nowhere have I seen any indication that only two mutated copies of MCIR could turn a black skinned and black haired individual into a red haired, fair skinned and blue-eyed person absent the presence of other depigmentation genes. If that's true or was true, it's fine with me. Just don't make claims that you can't substantiate. Also, a study could come out tomorrow showing that these people possessed de-pigmentation genes of which we were previously unaware. If so, mazel tov to those for whom this is so important. So far, however, there is no indication of that.

You know what...have it your way...they were all albinos. Whatever floats your boat.
 
I don't let prejudices effect how I make my conclusions.
Laughing-craig-ferguson-9991882-350-263.gif
 
My point was that we already have a perfectly good explanation for European depigmentation. And, IMO, the fact that we have red haired, white skinned mummies in China and blue eyed blonds living in modern Kazakhstan is simply a function of the fact that ancient people wandered off to some fairly strange places. These people probably have the same mutations that explain depigmentation in European populations. If there's no body of evidence suggesting that the red hair gene can cause depigmentation without SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, maybe it's because you're chasing a phantom.

A phantom that can be photographed.

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Common/India/Indian_Albinos/The_Bhatti.jpg
 
For the record, I don't care if they were purple polka-dotted. I think this obsession with the whole topic is stupid. I thought we were finally done with it.

However, I am allergic to people making claims that are based on formulations like...well, isn't it possible that X could have happened. I suppose it's POSSIBLE that aliens came to earth periodically to give us tips on technology, but I don't know of any evidence to that effect. Is it therefore anything that I would ever give any head room to? The answer is no.

Everything I have seen so far indicates that pigmentation is a polygenic trait involving the interplay of numerous alleles. Nowhere have I seen any indication that only two mutated copies of MCIR could turn a black skinned and black haired individual into a red haired, fair skinned and blue-eyed person absent the presence of other depigmentation genes. If that's true or was true, it's fine with me. Just don't make claims that you can't substantiate. Also, a study could come out tomorrow showing that these people possessed de-pigmentation genes of which we were previously unaware. If so, mazel tov to those for whom this is so important. So far, however, there is no indication of that.

You know what...have it your way...they were all albinos. Whatever floats your boat.

"However, I am allergic to people making claims that are based on formulations like...well, isn't it possible that X could have happened."


I'm not making any claims.


I'm saying this


http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Common/India/Indian_Albinos/The_Bhatti.jpg


and this


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xirong#Ethnicity


"The 7th century commentary to the Hanshu by Yan Shigu says: "Among the various Rong tribes in the Western Regions, the Wusun's shape was the strangest; and the present barbarians who have green eyes and red hair, and are like a macaque, belonged to the same race as the Wusun."


may be related.

Other people are saying they *can't* be related because of the SLC genes - which makes no sense.


Maybe they're not related. Maybe the Wusun, Libyans, Thracians, Hyperboreans got the skin color from the SLC genes and the red hair, green eyes from MC1R although that begs the question why should the MC1R gene have been more widespread in the past than now?


Either way there's a piece of the puzzle missing.
 
"However, I am allergic to people making claims that are based on formulations like...well, isn't it possible that X could have happened."


I'm not making any claims.


I'm saying this


http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Common/India/Indian_Albinos/The_Bhatti.jpg


and this


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xirong#Ethnicity


"The 7th century commentary to the Hanshu by Yan Shigu says: "Among the various Rong tribes in the Western Regions, the Wusun's shape was the strangest; and the present barbarians who have green eyes and red hair, and are like a macaque, belonged to the same race as the Wusun."


may be related.

Other people are saying they *can't* be related because of the SLC genes - which makes no sense.


Maybe they're not related. Maybe the Wusun, Libyans, Thracians, Hyperboreans got the skin color from the SLC genes and the red hair, green eyes from MC1R although that begs the question why should the MC1R gene have been more widespread in the past than now?


Either way there's a piece of the puzzle missing.

I haven't recently looked at the genes which cause albinism, but it's my recollection that the MCIR gene is not one of them. You might want to look that up.

The fact that there are so many descriptions of red haired people in ancient literature and a relative paucity of this phenotype in modern Europeans is something that I do consider interesting. I wonder if part of it is caused by less than subtle translations of ancient languages. For example, the Ligures, from whom I am at least partly descended, were described as red-haired. However, I'm not sure whether that is the way that the Latin should be translated. I'm basing that on the fact that in Italian, brown haired people are often described as having chestnut colored hair. An actual chestnut is a reddish brown, and brown hair which has been exposed to intense sun has a definite reddish hue. Mine certainly does. Perhaps the ancient authors meant that the people they encountered had reddish brown hair. By October, a great many people in Liguria could be so described. (If anyone has a link to the actual Latin I would appreciate it, so I can see for myself which exact word was used. I haven't been able to find it.)

Assuming for the moment, however, that the ancient authors, at least in the case of the Ligures, meant actual red or red gold hair, it is certainly not common in Liguria today. You do find it, however, in the Apennines of Emilia, which were also Ligure territory. I happen to know because my father's family comes from there, and half of them have red hair, ranging from red-gold, to awful carrot orange, to auburn. They also are heavily freckled, particularly in childhood. My tentative speculation is that it's the result of a founder effect and then drift in very isolated populations where phenotypes based on recessive alleles can survive.
I don't think the fact that this phenotype is most common today in the areas of Europe most isolated from population flows is an accident (also the cloudiest, of course). There's also the case of the Ashkenazim, a 'very' bottlenecked population, where this phenotype has persisted in rather surprising numbers.

I think other factors 'might' also be involved with the diminution in numbers. The kind of skin which is frequently although not always found in red-haired people is extremely prone to sunburn, and the resulting dangers, in primitive societies, from infection. (Anyone with this kind of skin can attest to the absolute mess you can get in if you blister badly and then the blisters break.) In a climate with a strong sun, that's hardly an optimal adaptation, and I wonder if it might have impacted survival. People who carry it are also very prone to melanoma, although that appears later in life and so people would presumably already have had a chance to reproduce. Then there's the fact that at least in Italy, and I think more widely in Europe, red-haired women, in particular, were considered head strong, temperamental, and altogether not very good marriage material. In some places, it was even considered an indication of an association with the "dark" arts and they were actively persecuted. Perhaps all of these factors have caused the decrease in numbers.

As for albinos, it is absolutely 'not' an adaptive trait. They often have other physical ailments in addition to terrible vision problems. I can't think of a more maladaptive trait in a hunger-gatherer society than bad vision.

Also, I don't want to leave the impression that I think everything is crystal clear in terms of the occurrence and spread of the mutations causing de-pigmentation, because I don't. While the scientists have made a good start, there's a long way to go in understanding this and many other aspects of our genomes.
 
I haven't recently looked at the genes which cause albinism, but it's my recollection that the MCIR gene is not one of them. You might want to look that up.

The fact that there are so many descriptions of red haired people in ancient literature and a relative paucity of this phenotype in modern Europeans is something that I do consider interesting. I wonder if part of it is caused by less than subtle translations of ancient languages. For example, the Ligures, from whom I am at least partly descended, were described as red-haired. However, I'm not sure whether that is the way that the Latin should be translated. I'm basing that on the fact that in Italian, brown haired people are often described as having chestnut colored hair. An actual chestnut is a reddish brown, and brown hair which has been exposed to intense sun has a definite reddish hue. Mine certainly does. Perhaps the ancient authors meant that the people they encountered had reddish brown hair. By October, a great many people in Liguria could be so described. (If anyone has a link to the actual Latin I would appreciate it, so I can see for myself which exact word was used. I haven't been able to find it.)

Assuming for the moment, however, that the ancient authors, at least in the case of the Ligures, meant actual red or red gold hair, it is certainly not common in Liguria today. You do find it, however, in the Apennines of Emilia, which were also Ligure territory. I happen to know because my father's family comes from there, and half of them have red hair, ranging from red-gold, to awful carrot orange, to auburn. They also are heavily freckled, particularly in childhood. My tentative speculation is that it's the result of a founder effect and then drift in very isolated populations where phenotypes based on recessive alleles can survive.
I don't think the fact that this phenotype is most common today in the areas of Europe most isolated from population flows is an accident (also the cloudiest, of course). There's also the case of the Ashkenazim, a 'very' bottlenecked population, where this phenotype has persisted in rather surprising numbers.

I think other factors 'might' also be involved with the diminution in numbers. The kind of skin which is frequently although not always found in red-haired people is extremely prone to sunburn, and the resulting dangers, in primitive societies, from infection. (Anyone with this kind of skin can attest to the absolute mess you can get in if you blister badly and then the blisters break.) In a climate with a strong sun, that's hardly an optimal adaptation, and I wonder if it might have impacted survival. People who carry it are also very prone to melanoma, although that appears later in life and so people would presumably already have had a chance to reproduce. Then there's the fact that at least in Italy, and I think more widely in Europe, red-haired women, in particular, were considered head strong, temperamental, and altogether not very good marriage material. In some places, it was even considered an indication of an association with the "dark" arts and they were actively persecuted. Perhaps all of these factors have caused the decrease in numbers.

As for albinos, it is absolutely 'not' an adaptive trait. They often have other physical ailments in addition to terrible vision problems. I can't think of a more maladaptive trait in a hunger-gatherer society than bad vision.

Also, I don't want to leave the impression that I think everything is crystal clear in terms of the occurrence and spread of the mutations causing de-pigmentation, because I don't. While the scientists have made a good start, there's a long way to go in understanding this and many other aspects of our genomes.

"The fact that there are so many descriptions of red haired people in ancient literature and a relative paucity of this phenotype in modern Europeans is something that I do consider interesting."

Yes, it seems to me there's a missing piece. It may turn out to not be a very important piece but I'm curious anyway. (Plus even if it turns out to be a minor but very specific marker then that may turn out to be useful in tracing movements.)
 
Quite a heated thread.

@Angela, I am not such a frequent visitor and since I will readily admit being slightly lazy, would you find it terribly bothersome to repost links to some information that is known about skin color and genetics you refer to?

Furthermore I found this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694299/#!po=46.4286

The article is about improvements to predictions of eye and skincolor based on DNA. It uses the same genes to try and predict skin color as Lazardis used. It has quite an interesting table, table 3, which states that these predictions are often fairly accurate. Inconclusives seems largest at the skin color that is considered typical for the group. However that result changes with a population this article calls "mixed", the number of inconclusives from mixed populations is large with all skin types. Overal a quarter seems inconclusive.

That does give the impression that the clear warning given in a number of papers about drawing conclusions from these genes probably is not due to being overly careful.

It remains interesting, though, that at the very least the mutations that cause the light skin color in caucasians *nowadays* have spread only fairly recently, but can be found almost universally in that population.
 
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Furthermore I found this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694299/#!po=46.4286

The article is about improvements to predictions of eye and skincolor based on DNA. It uses the same genes to try and predict skin color as Lazardis used. It has quite an interesting table, table 3, which states that these predictions are often fairly accurate. Inconclusives seems largest at the skin color that is considered typical for the group. However that result changes with a population this article calls "mixed", the number of inconclusives from mixed populations is large with all skin types. Overal a quarter seems inconclusive.

That does give the impression that the clear warning given in a number of papers about drawing conclusions from these genes probably is not due to being overly careful.

It remains interesting, though, that at the very least the mutations that cause the light skin color in caucasians *nowadays* have spread only fairly recently, but can be found almost universally in that population.

The Error value of the 8-plex system is only 1% for skin and 5% for eye; The Inconclusive value comes from heterozygous SNPs (i.e. rs16891982 C/G or rs1426654 A/G etc.); Conclusive and >90% (~99% for Skin) accurate predictions are based on homozygous SNPs (i.e. rs16891982 G/G or rs1426654 A/A etc.) ''Skin-color prediction depends on homozygous genotypes'' and that for example is the case (all homo) for the ancient corpses;

Interesting from that study is that "Non-light skin color (ie, medium or dark) is predicted by G/G at rs6119471" and Loschbour, Stuttgart and Motola12 were all C/C; So obviously none was dark-skinned in the traditional Congo sense;
 
The Error value of the 8-plex system is only 1% for skin and 5% for eye; The Inconclusive value comes from heterozygous SNPs (i.e. rs16891982 C/G or rs1426654 A/G etc.); Conclusive and >90% (~99% for Skin) accurate predictions are based on homozygous SNPs (i.e. rs16891982 G/G or rs1426654 A/A etc.) ''Skin-color prediction depends on homozygous genotypes'' and that for example is the case (all homo) for the ancient corpses;

Interesting from that study is that "Non-light skin color (ie, medium or dark) is predicted by G/G at rs6119471" and Loschbour, Stuttgart and Motola12 were all C/C; So obviously none was dark-skinned in the traditional Congo sense;

You are absolutely right.
 
The Error value of the 8-plex system is only 1% for skin and 5% for eye; The Inconclusive value comes from heterozygous SNPs (i.e. rs16891982 C/G or rs1426654 A/G etc.); Conclusive and >90% (~99% for Skin) accurate predictions are based on homozygous SNPs (i.e. rs16891982 G/G or rs1426654 A/A etc.) ''Skin-color prediction depends on homozygous genotypes'' and that for example is the case (all homo) for the ancient corpses;

Interesting from that study is that "Non-light skin color (ie, medium or dark) is predicted by G/G at rs6119471" and Loschbour, Stuttgart and Motola12 were all C/C; So obviously none was dark-skinned in the traditional Congo sense;

Mind you, even without knowing ancient DNA you could come to the same conclusion. Chinese, Koreans and Japanese and such are almost as light skinned as whites. However, the mutations that cause this are different from the mutations that cause lighter skin in whites. Both populations live are roughly the same altitudes. That strongly suggests that light skin is caused by environmental pressure from living at these altitudes. An other population living at similar altitudes are American Indians. These however are darker than both East-Asians and whites, even if they are not black. So, what exactly do East-Asians and whites have in common that they don't have in common with indians? A completely agricultural society.
 
I'm astonished to think anyone would consider red hair to be rare among modern Europeans. Rare in places like Italy, for sure, rare pretty much anywhere south of the 45th parallel, except for it being common in northern Spain, but red hair is extremely common in some northern European countries, such as Ireland and Scotland. And yes, red headed people in northern Europe usually have very pale skin, even more so than other people in northern Europe, so the mutation associated with red hair could have some minor affect on skin colour. However, I don't know of any evidence that any of the redheads who are so common in northern Europe lack the defining mutations for depigmentation in SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.
 
And lastly. Do realise that parrots, lizards and tropical fish laugh at our concept of skin "color". Mammals are BORING.
 
I'm astonished to think anyone would consider red hair to be rare among modern Europeans. Rare in places like Italy, for sure, rare pretty much anywhere south of the 45th parallel, except for it being common in northern Spain, but red hair is extremely common in some northern European countries, such as Ireland and Scotland. And yes, red headed people in northern Europe usually have very pale skin, even more so than other people in northern Europe, so the mutation associated with red hair could have some minor affect on skin colour. However, I don't know of any evidence that any of the redheads who are so common in northern Europe lack the defining mutations for depigmentation in SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.

Red hair is very rare no matter where you go. In Canada most people are northwest European, right? Do you commonly see redheads? I doubt it. I have been to areas of the United States where pretty much everyone is northwest European, and redheads are hard to find. If your in a big city though where most of the people are northwest European it will seem many people have red hair because in big crowds you see alot of people and the redheads stick out. In northern Italy more than 1% of the people have red hair, unlike most of Europe. The whole 45th parallel thing is bull shit. Red hair in western Europe is obviously connected with Italo-Celts and Germans, so probably has to do with Indo European migrations from eastern Europe during the bronze age more than anything.
 
Red hair is very rare no matter where you go. In Canada most people are northwest European, right? Do you commonly see redheads? I doubt it. I have been to areas of the United States where pretty much everyone is northwest European, and redheads are hard to find. If your in a big city though where most of the people are northwest European it will seem many people have red hair because in big crowds you see alot of people and the redheads stick out. In northern Italy more than 1% of the people have red hair, unlike most of Europe. The whole 45th parallel thing is bull shit. Red hair in western Europe is obviously connected with Italo-Celts and Germans, so probably has to do with Indo European migrations from eastern Europe during the bronze age more than anything.

Ramses II was a red head and lived certainly below the 45th parallel. The brother of an Algerian friend of mine as well.

But, then again, just anecdotal evidence.
 
red hair is extremely common in some northern European countries, such as Ireland and Scotland

Depends on what is defined by extremely common in North Europe;
From your home (ancestral) town:

9292.png


Around ~6% have red-hair in Aberdeen (22361 students); The Frisian women have the same result of 6.7% (Table 1) whereas the Frisian men were 1%-2% (Miszkiewicz 1975 / 2500 Frisians); In all Frisians red-hair is app. higher than average Scandinavia but a similar result to Miesbach (Bavarian Women); The Finns have almost none (majority being Blonde);

http://www.unz.org/Pub/MankindQuarterly-1975oct-00104
91919.png


The Udmurts are very red-haired maybe even the most red-haired pop. on the planet; The amount of Red-hairs in Europe is maybe due to it having (Medieval times) a negative image with witchcraft and things of this nature; Whether one considers it overall extremely common or not red-hair is def. more common in females than males;
 
Mind you, even without knowing ancient DNA you could come to the same conclusion. Chinese, Koreans and Japanese and such are almost as light skinned as whites. However, the mutations that cause this are different from the mutations that cause lighter skin in whites. Both populations live are roughly the same altitudes. That strongly suggests that light skin is caused by environmental pressure from living at these altitudes. An other population living at similar altitudes are American Indians. These however are darker than both East-Asians and whites, even if they are not black. So, what exactly do East-Asians and whites have in common that they don't have in common with indians? A completely agricultural society.

That is true; The Mongoloids have diff. mutations than the Caucasoids but have similar social-structures (even in the Steppes with pure pastoralism); What causes the cline between Koreans and Cherokee for example i have no clue; But what causes the cline between North Europe and South Europe is obviously also manifested in the general cline of lighter-eyes i.e. rs12913832 (G/G) which also factors into skin-lightness;
http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo...8366118;v=rs12913832;vdb=variation;vf=9155714
 

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