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Thread: Genetic engineering, designer babies and gene therapy: would you do it ?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    that's quite interesting, I've also had the suspect that something along those lines is true. But genetical modification to smarten people up might not be the answer to equalize things, because then jobs would also get more intellectually challenging. Intelligence equality is a myth, there is always going to be a majority out there that just doesn't have the mind skills of that top 3-4%, that's why religion and bs politics will always work; the vast majority are in a perpetual state of imbecility.
    I have explained above that intelligence depends on many other factors than DNA. Genetics only provide at best a potential, which has to be fulfilled through education and experience. Besides augmenting mental abilities for some kind of intelligence might lower other types of intelligence. It's hard to be artistic while being logical and analytical at the same time. More than DNA, it is the personality and behaviour that will determine what intelligence type is promoted in a person's life. Someone who spends a lot of time socialising and making public speeches will have less time to spend for reading, or playing sport, or playing music, and so on. One can't be good at everything because there is not enough time to learn everything.

    Even in the impossible hypothetical situation in which all human beings had equal intelligence, the strength of character, testosterone levels and risk taking would still determine who rules who.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have explained above that intelligence depends on many other factors than DNA. Genetics only provide at best a potential, which has to be fulfilled through education and experience. Besides augmenting mental abilities for some kind of intelligence might lower other types of intelligence. It's hard to be artistic while being logical and analytical at the same time. More than DNA, it is the personality and behaviour that will determine what intelligence type is promoted in a person's life. Someone who spends a lot of time socialising and making public speeches will have less time to spend for reading, or playing sport, or playing music, and so on. One can't be good at everything because there is not enough time to learn everything.

    Even in the impossible hypothetical situation in which all human beings had equal intelligence, the strength of character, testosterone levels and risk taking would still determine who rules who.
    right, skill depends largely on effort but in certain cases the potential difference is so great that effort won't be enough to equalize. Lets compare two marathon runners, a European and a Kenyan; the Kenyan will always win for the same amount of practice. How do we know there is not people out there whose mental capacity is just above everyone else, just like the Kenyan in marathon running. They have to be out there, scientifically it makes sense. And if they're so smart, they are smart enough to hide from the angry jealous mobs that are eventually going to form against them.

    Just a speculation:
    what would be the first reaction of a genetically modified super-intelligent human. First he would play dumb to make believe the scientists that the experiment did not work, so that he can get out of the lab and stop future probing into his brain. Next, he would try to get as rich as he can, in order to make his life easier. And then he would surround himself with all the hedonistic pleasures associated with wealth and at the same time try to find the formula for immortality so he can prolong his state of success. All this done low-key so that people don't really find out about him.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    right, skill depends largely on effort but in certain cases the potential difference is so great that effort won't be enough to equalize. Lets compare two marathon runners, a European and a Kenyan; the Kenyan will always win for the same amount of practice. How do we know there is not people out there whose mental capacity is just above everyone else, just like the Kenyan in marathon running. They have to be out there, scientifically it makes sense. And if they're so smart, they are smart enough to hide from the angry jealous mobs that are eventually going to form against them.
    There are obviously huge differences in intelligence between humans at present. IQ tests only reflect some types of intelligence, but the gap between the top and bottom performers is at least a big as between a high level athlete and a grossly obese couch potato. But most obese people become obese through poor dietary habits and lack of exercise. And nobody can become an athlete without a lot of regular practice, no matter how good their DNA is.

    My point is that, if you took two identical twins, it would be possible to turn one into a person so obese that he couldn't walk without help, and the other into a high-level athlete, just by giving them different diets and lifestyles.

    I think that through a healthy diet and a lot of efforts similar differences can be achieved in intellectual fitness and skills. Imagine an experiment with identical twins lasting for 10 years, from age 10 to 20. Lock one of them in front of a TV watching only mind-numbing programs and feed him a terrible diet, without going to school or reading a singe book, and no access to the Internet. During the same period, take his identical twin and give him the best diet, provide top-class private tutors, send him to the best universities, and pay him to reward learning. I am sure that the difference in skills and knowledge between the two after 10 years will be huge.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There are obviously huge differences in intelligence between humans at present. IQ tests only reflect some types of intelligence, but the gap between the top and bottom performers is at least a big as between a high level athlete and a grossly obese couch potato. But most obese people become obese through poor dietary habits and lack of exercise. And nobody can become an athlete without a lot of regular practice, no matter how good their DNA is.
    Exactly. The superhumans already exist. Some people can lift 100 kg above head without exercising much, some will not lift even 20 kg in their prime. Some can speak 5 languages fluently, some won't muster even one. Some can build rockets and do brain surgery, but some are only comfortable with simple manual work, and scared when learning something new. Some will recall almost everything from their memory, but others forget as fast as their learn. There are incredibly gorgeous people that everybody wants to sleep or spend life with, some others unfortunately are really hard to look at.
    If anything genetic technology will narrow this gap. There will be not much incentive for already smart, healthy and beautiful people to change anything in their babies. On other hand there will be a huge drive from not so beautiful, not so healthy, or with terrible memory to ask doctor about improvements to their genetic code when given to their offspring.
    I'm surprised that so many people who are against inequality in financial sense, can be strongly comfortable with this terrible genetic inequality.



    I think that through a healthy diet and a lot of efforts similar differences can be achieved in intellectual fitness and skills. Imagine an experiment with identical twins lasting for 10 years, from age 10 to 20. Lock one of them in front of a TV watching only mind-numbing programs and feed him a terrible diet, without going to school or reading a singe book, and no access to the Internet. During the same period, take his identical twin and give him the best diet, provide top-class private tutors, send him to the best universities, and pay him to reward learning. I am sure that the difference in skills and knowledge between the two after 10 years will be huge.
    I agree, without good environmental interaction even best genes are nothing. However, it should be stressed here, that without good genetic predisposition it is extremely hard to teach people with bad memory anything. The process is frustrating and discouraging for both students and teachers. Likewise, unattractive people will never have good selection of partners, and are damned for waiting for someone desperate to want them. Also, people with bad health will never be athletes. Parents who never excelled in schools and do only manual low paying jobs can never expect their offspring to be a brain surgeon or rocket scientist, no matter how much education is thrown at the kid.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 06-02-14 at 00:30.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In today's news the first bionic hand that allows sense of touch was tested, allowing amputee feel objects for first time after he lost his hands.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/bionic...ouch-1.2524642


    Even though this is a fantastic development for these poor souls, I can't wait till bioengineering can rebuild a hand of other body parts to their natural state and functionality. Stem Cell research is very exciting and promising in this department.
    Bionic hand, no matter how good, will always be a substitute, and regeneration (genetic engineering) the goal and the ultimate cure.

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    Hi everybody. I googled “designer babies” and came over this thread. So I’m new here, this is my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Most sense what it makes to me is first getting rid of diseases and than trying to make the babies more intelligent as ourselves.
    It's precisely the other way around, Alan. We are too many (and getting more numerous) and too big (and gettin' bigger; even the Asians are getting taller and fatter). If we were 10X smaller wolfing 50X less of the traditional resources (like dead animals from slaughterhouses, fish, forests, etc) your version would hold some water. What we desperately need is to get smarter, way smarter than we are right now: the new gods on the block.

    " But genetical modification to smarten people up might not be the answer to equalize things, because then jobs would also get more intellectually challenging." [Kamani] -- "more intellectually challenging" is exactly what we'll need, since otherwise we'll die of boredom. That's what scared me while thinking how to asymptotically approach the absolute knowledge: Will an absolute knowledgeable entity just die of boredom, since s/he'll encounter 0 [zero] challenges? I guess not, since absolute knowledge = absolute power, so S/HE'll be able to downgrade himself (as often as he wants) to inferior levels of knowledge that'll allow him to enjoy countless challenges.

    BTW, what if we're actually .. HIM in one of his escapades?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    Will an absolute knowledgeable entity just die of boredom, since s/he'll encounter 0 [zero] challenges?
    Fear no more. Most people don't feel excited learning or figuring out inner working of universe, neither it is a main goal of any lifeform on earth. Scientific knowledge is more like a side effect of our amazing brains. There are many other things that make the life worth living and fun, like love, family, kids, food, sex, travel, beach, skiing, gardening etc, etc. As long as we don't forget about fun loving genes people will have a reason to live for, no matter if we have ultimate knowledge or not.
    However, regardless how much fun we will have and how long we will live in the future, there might be a time in our lives when we experienced it all and life became very boring. For that reason euthanasia will be a very popular method of dieing in the future.


    I guess not, since absolute knowledge = absolute power, so S/HE'll be able to downgrade himself (as often as he wants) to inferior levels of knowledge that'll allow him to enjoy countless challenges.

    BTW, what if we're actually .. HIM in one of his escapades?
    Intriguing. This is assuming that the main goal of existence is to achieve the ultimate knowledge and power. Therefore, how ironic it is to downgrade yourself to "lower" state being, just to find sense of living!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Fear no more. Most people don't feel excited learning or figuring out inner working of universe
    We’re not talking about “most people” (who are obviously dumb “Desperate Housewives” watchers) here, but about a super-smart (even all-knowledgeable) entity. A genuine intellectual won’t stop learning. Smart dudes wanna know the “inner working of universe” and of anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There are many other things that make the life worth living and fun, like love, family, kids, food, sex, travel, beach, skiing, gardening etc, etc.
    Any sensation is processed by the brain. An all-powerful entity will surely control all the sensations in his brain (or should we call it CPU?) without having to eat the best steak (= a piece of dead animal) or bed a supermodel (= a waxed ape on high heels, possibly carrying some exotic STD’s). HE can experience the maximum possible pleasure/s whenever (presuming that time still exists for HIM) HE wants. For HIM having sex with the hottest woman in the history of planet earth would be like you being in the fanciest restaurant with the best food in the world on the table in front of you and deciding to go outside and eat grass. Would you eat grass?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    However, regardless how much fun we will have and how long we will live in the future, there might be a time in our lives when we experienced it all and life became very boring.
    Let’s agree upon one obvious thing: only an ALL-knowledgeable entity can “experience it ALL.” Which is good news, cuz that means that for as long as we only asymptotically approach the absolute knowledge (and in the process become immortals) we’re safe, from a state of mind perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Intriguing. This is assuming that the main goal of existence is to achieve the ultimate knowledge and power.
    It HAS to be! I have a hunch that the Big Bang didn’t just happened so Joe-6-pack will have $$ for beer and aunt Clarice will tearfully watch soap operas ..

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Therefore, how ironic it is to downgrade yourself to "lower" state being, just to find sense of living!
    Well, how about not even an absolutely intelligent entity can overcome the Sisyphus’ fate? Like in, ‘OK, now that I know everything I’m bored to death. Let’s simultaneously press the self-destroy button and create another Big Bang – I’ll have again, for a few billions of years, tons of fun (= countless challenges to outwit)’

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    We’re not talking about “most people” (who are obviously dumb “Desperate Housewives” watchers) here, but about a super-smart (even all-knowledgeable) entity. A genuine intellectual won’t stop learning. Smart dudes wanna know the “inner working of universe” and of anything else.
    I was trying to tell you that just being smart might not be enough to sustain life. It is very likely that super smart people, with no interest and excitements of ordinary dumb humans, might come to conclusion that their existence is meaningless to the universe and elect to end their lives and their species. I'm sure that, regardless how smart we will get, we will need variety of pleasures, interests, excitements, simple emotions, to keep us interested and alive for a long time.

    Any sensation is processed by the brain. An all-powerful entity will surely control all the sensations in his brain (or should we call it CPU?) without having to eat the best steak (= a piece of dead animal) or bed a supermodel (= a waxed ape on high heels, possibly carrying some exotic STD’s). HE can experience the maximum possible pleasure/s whenever (presuming that time still exists for HIM) HE wants. For HIM having sex with the hottest woman in the history of planet earth would be like you being in the fanciest restaurant with the best food in the world on the table in front of you and deciding to go outside and eat grass. Would you eat grass?
    In distant time in the future it should be possible to make people so smart and of incredible computer like memory, and download all the world knowledge and experience (sexual included) into a brain of 5 year old super human. With perfect recall memory there is no need for real life experiences, as the downloaded ones seem perfectly real. What would be reason to live above age of 5? Or need for humans at all?



    It HAS to be! I have a hunch that the Big Bang didn’t just happened so Joe-6-pack will have $$ for beer and aunt Clarice will tearfully watch soap operas ..
    It is egocentric, special purpose humans, very spiritual I must say. World will "survive" without people, regardless if beer drinking or knowledge hungry. It started without our help and it will end perfectly fine without it either.



    Well, how about not even an absolutely intelligent entity can overcome the Sisyphus’ fate? Like in, ‘OK, now that I know everything I’m bored to death. Let’s simultaneously press the self-destroy button and create another Big Bang – I’ll have again, for a few billions of years, tons of fun (= countless challenges to outwit)’
    The problem is that once the old world is destroyed and new created, it won't be you anymore but other conscious being. It is like saying that when I clone myself, make a perfect physical copy, I can kill my old body and live as new one. I'm afraid that without physical continuity we are losing existence forever, not mentioning that a big part who we are is our acquired knowledge and memories of life experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The problem is that once the old world is destroyed and new created, it won't be you anymore but other conscious being.
    That's disputable and, without a doubt, quite an interesting subject to debate. I believe it's our duty to try to become the masters of the universe and if you don't want to follow me I'll call you guys from upstairs and let ya know how it feels like. If you are curious eye my new thread, "Assembling gods, one letter at a time."

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    Oops, apparently I cannot start a thread cuz I have only 4 posts and I need 10. Maybe later ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    That's disputable and, without a doubt, quite an interesting subject to debate. I believe it's our duty to try to become the masters of the universe and if you don't want to follow me I'll call you guys from upstairs and let ya know how it feels like. If you are curious eye my new thread, "Assembling gods, one letter at a time."
    Wow, that's what world really needs, another god. ;)
    In mean time lets concentrate on more urgent issues, making sure that earth survives and humans won't kill each other, till we manage to create loving real god who will protect us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    Oops, apparently I cannot start a thread cuz I have only 4 posts and I need 10. Maybe later ...
    Post six fake posts here, and do your thread. I'll delete the fakies later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Wow, that's what world really needs, another god. ;)
    In mean time lets concentrate on more urgent issues, making sure that earth survives and humans won't kill each other, till we manage to create loving real god who will protect us.
    a "loving god"?! I can't even think of a more boring dude up in the sky ... And I don't need protection, but knowledge (and, meanwhile, the Jackpot in the Lottery won't bother me much ..)

    OK, 5 left ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    how did you stick the Alberta flag there?
    I got a sticker from a shop and glued it on screen in the right place.
    Seriously I don't remember it was 5 years ago. Look for it in Settings, I guess.

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    Gene therapy is entering mainstream.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...e-3a91346acc5e

    It will cure 70 million people worldwide infected with HIV.

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