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Thread: Bell Beakers were a multicultural phenomenon & trade network, not an ethnic culture

  1. #26
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Bell beakers from NE-Poland, ...latvians, lithuanians ( maybe ancient Aestii and their amber trade )

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...st-poland.html
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Let's see if my link to the Amzallag paper works:
    http://www.ajaonline.org/sites/defau...Amzallag_0.pdf

    Here is the rebuttal:
    http://www.ajaonline.org/sites/defau...ication_detail


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    Thanks to Aberdeen and Angela for their "rebuttal" complement - i'll read it

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    concerning mt DNA I suppose true BBs sended some eastern or southeastern DNA - but I think they ever sedn a lot of females with them, they rather took local females - at last, the final BBs were accultured people with a strong occidental avergae of mt-DNA -
    concerning the rebutting of the AMZALLAG work I red it and yes it changes some perspectives - but what inrested me in this work was the affirmation that brutally a kind of prospection course took place in remote places rich for metallic ores what could correspond to the first BBs moves and settlements - does this"technical" rebutting destroy this theory or constatation???

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This year's ancient DNA results provide even more convincing evidence that German and Iberian populations during the Bell Beaker period were ethnically distinct. Have a look at this PCA chart made by David from Eurogenes. I have circled and underscored the relevant data.



    What we see is that Chalcolithic Iberians were ethnically indistinguishable from Middle Neolithic Iberians, who are slightly more admixed with WHG than Early Neolithic Iberians. There was no significant population change between the Neolithic and Chalcolithic in the Iberian peninsula, which means that there was genetic continuity throughout the Megalithic and Bell Beaker periods in the peninsula. This also means that the Bell Beaker phenomenon, if it started in Iberia as current archaeological evidence suggests, was not a foreign element brought by Steppe people, but was native of Megalithic Europe, as I have always said since I made the migration maps and wrote the original R1b article in 2009.

    R1b Steppe people who invaded Central Europe eventually continued their migration to Iberia in the Bronze Age, where they mixed with the local Chalcolithic population. Bronze Age Iberians are perfectly intermediary between Early Bronze Age Central Europeans (including German R1b) and Middle/Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iberians.

    Therefore it is clear that:

    1) The Bell Beaker phenomenon was not an ethnic culture like Neolithic and Bronze Age cultures such as LBK, Cardium Pottery, Yamna or Corded Ware, but really just a trade network between completely unrelated peoples, just as I posited in this thread two years ago.

    2) R1b people descended from Steppe invaders only reached Iberia in the Bronze Age, and not in the Chalcolithic as some suggested.

    3) There doesn't seem to have been a significant migration of newcomers who brought copper metallurgy to Iberia from the Balkans or the Near East. So the Copper Age was most likely not spread by J2 or R1b-L23 people, but - in Iberia at least - evolved directly from the native G2a + I2 + E1b1b population from Neolithic Iberia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    concerning mt DNA I suppose true BBs sended some eastern or southeastern DNA - but I think they ever sedn a lot of females with them, they rather took local females - at last, the final BBs were accultured people with a strong occidental avergae of mt-DNA -
    concerning the rebutting of the AMZALLAG work I red it and yes it changes some perspectives - but what inrested me in this work was the affirmation that brutally a kind of prospection course took place in remote places rich for metallic ores what could correspond to the first BBs moves and settlements - does this"technical" rebutting destroy this theory or constatation???
    I'm not sure the BB took other wives.
    The Bell Beaker pottery was made by hand, it was made in the homes by the women of the house. The Bell Beaker pottery was very uniform in style and technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This year's ancient DNA results provide even more convincing evidence that German and Iberian populations during the Bell Beaker period were ethnically distinct. Have a look at this PCA chart made by David from Eurogenes. I have circled and underscored the relevant data.



    What we see is that Chalcolithic Iberians were ethnically indistinguishable from Middle Neolithic Iberians, who are slightly more admixed with WHG than Early Neolithic Iberians. There was no significant population change between the Neolithic and Chalcolithic in the Iberian peninsula, which means that there was genetic continuity throughout the Megalithic and Bell Beaker periods in the peninsula. This also means that the Bell Beaker phenomenon, if it started in Iberia as current archaeological evidence suggests, was not a foreign element brought by Steppe people, but was native of Megalithic Europe, as I have always said since I made the migration maps and wrote the original R1b article in 2009.

    R1b Steppe people who invaded Central Europe eventually continued their migration to Iberia in the Bronze Age, where they mixed with the local Chalcolithic population. Bronze Age Iberians are perfectly intermediary between Early Bronze Age Central Europeans (including German R1b) and Middle/Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iberians.

    Therefore it is clear that:

    1) The Bell Beaker phenomenon was not an ethnic culture like Neolithic and Bronze Age cultures such as LBK, Cardium Pottery, Yamna or Corded Ware, but really just a trade network between completely unrelated peoples, just as I posited in this thread two years ago.

    2) R1b people descended from Steppe invaders only reached Iberia in the Bronze Age, and not in the Chalcolithic as some suggested.

    3) There doesn't seem to have been a significant migration of newcomers who brought copper metallurgy to Iberia from the Balkans or the Near East. So the Copper Age was most likely not spread by J2 or R1b-L23 people, but - in Iberia at least - evolved directly from the native G2a + I2 + E1b1b population from Neolithic Iberia.
    I have a question : which samples were selected to represent Iberian Chl?
    The Iberian Chl started ca 5.2 ka while BB started only ca 4.9 ka, 3-400 years later.
    IMO the first Iberian Chl people were not local, they seem to have arrived with some advanced knowledge of metallurgy which was not present before. Furthermore the Iberian Chl elite seems to have been burried in 'tholoi' and not in the traditional communal megalith graves.
    It seems however that local people were employed by the newly arrived elite to help in digging and transporting the ores and making the charcoal. At Los Millares these local employed people lived outside the city walls.
    Looking at the PCA chart, I'd say the Iberian Chl people had the same origin as the Europe EN people, i.e. the Balkans or the eastern Mediterranean.

    The question is : were the Iberian BB people the same as those early Iberian Chl people?
    AFAIK there is no sampled DNA of Iberian BB people whatsoever.

    Iberia BA came very late, ca 1500 years later than Iberia Chl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I have a question : which samples were selected to represent Iberian Chl?
    The Iberian Chl started ca 5.2 ka while BB started only ca 4.9 ka, 3-400 years later.
    AFAIK the only Chalcolithic Spanish genomes we have are those of El Portalon tested by Günther et al 2015, which range from 3000 to 5200 BCE, and those of El Mirador tested by Mathieson 2015, which date from circa 2880-2630 BCE. So that's a quite wide range of dates, but most of them fit within the Bell Beaker period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    AFAIK the only Chalcolithic Spanish genomes we have are those of El Portalon tested by Günther et al 2015, which range from 3000 to 5200 BCE, and those of El Mirador tested by Mathieson 2015, which date from circa 2880-2630 BCE. So that's a quite wide range of dates, but most of them fit within the Bell Beaker period.
    It is difficult to find exact info, but Mathieson 2015 makes no mention of Bell Beaker and Günther et al 2015 names the samples 'pre-beaker copper age'.

    'The human remains were associated with offerings, such as domesticanimals and pottery vessels corresponding to the pre-Bell Beakerculture and were directly radiocarbon-dated to between ∼5,500(Chalcolithic) and ∼3,500 cal yBP (Bronze Age)'

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    It is difficult to find exact info, but Mathieson 2015 makes no mention of Bell Beaker and Günther et al 2015 names the samples 'pre-beaker copper age'.

    'The human remains were associated with offerings, such as domesticanimals and pottery vessels corresponding to the pre-Bell Beakerculture and were directly radiocarbon-dated to between ∼5,500(Chalcolithic) and ∼3,500 cal yBP (Bronze Age)'
    BBs phenomenon is uneasy to weight because it seems first foreign people in small numbers later acculturated other people and the genetic state of first Bbs is surely not the same as the final one(s). I have no religion only feelings.
    concerning females and mtDNA between MLN and Chalco, I first supposed a lot of changes in Central Europe (mtH increase) could be linked to Atlantic-Iberian pops in two possible period: 1) megaliths - 2) BBs, I suppose this last one more light. But I have not the subclades of mt-H: I wonder now if some specific mt-H from E-Romania could not have reached Western Europe in early BBs times, because I have not abandoned the idea of a remote eastern origin of BBs (with possibly a central route and a maritime southern route westwards).
    I evolved a little. The very light demic imput of BBs supposed by myself could have been a bit denser in some parts of Europe (west-central for the most). SO inequal demic imput according to places.
    That said, BBs seem having been a completely foreign and extarnal (dwellings) element in Portugal around the 3000 BC, distinct from the other Chalco people at first BEFORE being incorporated in Chalco people settlements. And Chalco (# BB) itself - here I desagree a little with MACIAMO - could have had some DNA imput of East in Portalôn compared to El Mirador, even if "steppic" seems a bit unsure, at least a bit "CHG" or "west-asian" (GENETIKER seems thinking in a kind of "steppic" nevertheless, but he makes personal calculations); here individuals are slightly differenet within the group?). In Andalusia, everything points to an eastern Mediterranean imput with changes in sepultures - Helladic? -
    In N-W Europe and germany, I think BBs are for the most accultured people, what is not saying they had NO BB people tiny admixture.
    and yes, we lask Iberian BBs DNA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    BBs phenomenon is uneasy to weight because it seems first foreign people in small numbers later acculturated other people and the genetic state of first Bbs is surely not the same as the final one(s). I have no religion only feelings.
    concerning females and mtDNA between MLN and Chalco, I first supposed a lot of changes in Central Europe (mtH increase) could be linked to Atlantic-Iberian pops in two possible period: 1) megaliths - 2) BBs, I suppose this last one more light. But I have not the subclades of mt-H: I wonder now if some specific mt-H from E-Romania could not have reached Western Europe in early BBs times, because I have not abandoned the idea of a remote eastern origin of BBs (with possibly a central route and a maritime southern route westwards).
    I evolved a little. The very light demic imput of BBs supposed by myself could have been a bit denser in some parts of Europe (west-central for the most). SO inequal demic imput according to places.
    That said, BBs seem having been a completely foreign and extarnal (dwellings) element in Portugal around the 3000 BC, distinct from the other Chalco people at first BEFORE being incorporated in Chalco people settlements. And Chalco (# BB) itself - here I desagree a little with MACIAMO - could have had some DNA imput of East in Portalôn compared to El Mirador, even if "steppic" seems a bit unsure, at least a bit "CHG" or "west-asian" (GENETIKER seems thinking in a kind of "steppic" nevertheless, but he makes personal calculations); here individuals are slightly differenet within the group?). In Andalusia, everything points to an eastern Mediterranean imput with changes in sepultures - Helladic? -
    In N-W Europe and germany, I think BBs are for the most accultured people, what is not saying they had NO BB people tiny admixture.
    and yes, we lask Iberian BBs DNA!
    Where can I find more info about chalcolithic El Mirador and El Portalon? AFAIK they are situated in the same area.
    We are lacking Iberian BB DNA and we are also lacking Y-DNA from pre-BB Chalcolithic south Iberia, like Los Millares or early Zambujal.
    We have some mtDNA though, and it is very much H, which may be a link with chalcolithic Bulgaria. There is 1 D which may hint to a link with the steppe.

    Early Eneolithic Bulgaria Smyadovo [SMY3]
    6500-5000 y. a.

    H Wilde 2014
    Early Eneolithic Bulgaria Smyadovo [SMY4]
    6500-5000 y. a.

    H Wilde 2014
    Early Eneolithic Bulgaria Smyadovo [SMY9]
    6500-5000 y. a.

    H Wilde 2014
    Early Eneolithic Bulgaria Smyadovo [SMY11]
    6500-5000 y. a.

    T2e Wilde 2014
    Early Eneolithic Moldova Vinogradnoe [VIN1]
    6500-5000 y. a.

    H Wilde 2014
    Late Eneolithic Bulgaria Durankulak [DUR1]
    5500-4000 y. a.

    U52a2 Wilde 2014

    Portugal Cova da Moura [CM 183*]
    3400 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Cova da Moura [CM 187]
    3400 BC

    X2b Afonso 2010
    Portugal Cova da Moura [CM 194 ]
    3400 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Cova da Moura [CM 202]
    3400 BC

    U5 or HV2 Afonso 2010
    Portugal Dólmen do Ansião [DEA 50*]
    3300 BC

    H or U4 Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 13297]
    3000 BC

    H or HV* Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 13514]
    3000 BC

    HV* or L3*/N* Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 13622]
    3000 BC

    U Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 14638]
    3000 BC

    U5b2* Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 14714]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 15079]
    3000 BC

    U4 Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 15986]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 17334]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PM 17480]
    3000 BC

    H, HV* or R0 Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PMII 527, 542]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PMII 556]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Paimogo [PMII 591]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 169.23*]
    3000 BC

    H, HV* or R0 Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 176.1]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 206.4*]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI282.3.1]
    3000 BC

    H or V Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 288.5]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 337*]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 384.11*]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 386.37 ]
    3000 BC

    U5a1 Afonso 2010
    Portugal Monte Canelas [MCI 435.3]
    3000 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Sao Paulo [SP 5730, 8001, 18248]
    2500 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Portugal Sao Paulo [SP 9222*]
    2500 BC

    H, HV* or R0 Afonso 2010
    Portugal Sao Paulo [SP 18861]
    2500 BC

    H Afonso 2010
    Spain Nerja, Málaga [NE-NAP]
    2260 BC

    H11a or L1b Fernández 2005
    Spain Costa Lloguera, Castellon de la Plana [COST1]



    H Fernández 2006; Gamba 2008; Oliver 2008
    Spain Costa Lloguera, Castellon de la Plana [COST3]



    R? Fernández 2006; Gamba 2008; Oliver 2008
    Spain Costa Lloguera, Castellon de la Plana [COST4, COST5, 3COST4]



    H or U Fernández 2006; Gamba 2008
    Spain Costa Lloguera, Castellon de la Plana [3COST1, 3COST3]



    H or RO Fernández 2006
    Spain Malpaso cave, Castellnovo (Castellon) [1MP1]



    D Gamba 2008
    Spain Malpaso cave [4MP12]



    V Gamba 2008
    Spain Malpaso cave [2MP4]



    H20? (reported as L3?) Gamba 2008
    Spain Jovellus sepulchre, Benicassim (Castellon) [1JO1]



    H20? (reported as L3?) Gamba 2008
    Spain Assud de Villareal 2nd sepulchre, Almassora (Castellon) [1AV1]



    H20? (reported as L3?) Gamba 2008

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We discussed them here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Portalon

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Portalon

    This is a discussion of the mtDna at El Mirador:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/08...ria-el_15.html

    This academia article is helpful in showing the early versus the later levels:
    https://www.academia.edu/14679483/An...puerca_Burgos_

    This is particularly interesting:
    :
    "Proofs of Long-Distance Relations between Central Europe and Inland Iberian Peninsula during Neolithic and Bronze Age. Evidences from the Material Culture of the Site of El Portalón"
    http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2015111813360830.pdf

    "The set of archaeological materials presented in this work belongs to two distinct cultural periods, the Early Neolithic on the one hand and the advanced Chalcolithic/Bronze Age on the other hand, the latter with presence of metal objects and both within the same cultural dynamics. The interval phase between these two periods, Middle-Late Neolithic and the pre bell-baker Chalcolithic, is only represented in the Portalón through complex funeral rituals."

    "As for needles and bi-pointed objects, their use seems logical as decorative elements in clothing or hairstyles, although for the latter, its possible use as fishing hooks has also been indicated. In any case, both needles and bi-pointed objects are exotic products, with few parallels in the region and linked to European productions of the Rhine-Rhone valley, Switzerland and northern Italy. We think that in this case the idea of a movement of objects (not just the concepts) over long-distances is justified. At this time in Europe the sociocultural context encourages supra-regional relationships (the Bell Beaker culture is a good example), and the great value of the metals and the need to locate outcrops are another incentives. Furthermore, it is highly suggestive to relate these cultural dynamics to the latest hypotheses derived from genetic studies, which highlight the importance of post-Neolithic demographic processes and the current characterization of the gene pool of recent Europeans (Brandt et al., 2013; Kind, 2010; Ricaut et al., 2012)."

    "Bi-pointed needles and V-perforated buttons point to societies established in the far east of the Pyrenees, Rhone Valley and Switzerland; the buttons with a straight perforation take us there or to the French Atlantic facade. The bony pins and bi-pointed objects were probably sumptuary samples. They could be cloth and/or elaborated hairstyles supplements, with a value beyond the useful (exceeding their traditional cost). All of them were exchanged objects between the Meseta Castellana and Central Europe along these routes. We do not rule out the possibility of the connections actually going in other directions, but archaeological evidence published on the Iberian Peninsula fails to disclose this."

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    I don't know if everyone is aware of this discussion on using nMonte to look at Bell Beaker samples:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ications/page3

    This argument that there was a movement from Iberia to central Europe which might have brought more mtDna "H" (Brandt et al) isn't supported by the above paper, is it? The influence seems to all be coming from northern Italy, Switzerland, the Rhone, into Iberia, not out of it. Unless we're talking about a different time period?

    The finding of an extra "Levant like/Natufian like" strand in Iberia is also interesting. Again, the dates have to be checked, but there is definitely an Eastern Med influence in Murcia, in my opinion.

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    @Bicicleur,
    If you're not following this other thread, in this post I quote from Jean Manco's book about copper metallurgy coming to Iberia from steppe people.

    I don't know about that; I've always been a bit skeptical.

    Zambujal has seemed more eastern Med to me than steppe.

  15. #40
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    I hope we'll get some high coverage DNA that can be clearly linked with Early Iberian BB soon.

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