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Thread: Z59+/Z60- is a lonely place at the I1 haplogroup tree

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z59+ CTS8647+

    Ethnic group
    Western Europe
    Country: Belgium



    Z59+/Z60- is a lonely place at the I1 haplogroup tree

    As far as I can see there's only a few people tested Z59+ and Z60-
    I'm CTS8674+ and ordered now F3916 which seems the only relevant SNP I didn't test yet. Unless I overlook something?

    Is there anyone else here Z59+/Z60-?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Nordtvedt gives a good visualization of Z58+ Z60-, including Z59+ Z60-, here on his "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-."

    What's unusual doesn't seem to be Z59+ Z60-, since that includes the AS3, AS10, AS13, and Sw clusters, along with assorted outliers. What's unusual is CTS8647+ Z60-. Nordtvedt lists only two families who have tested like that: Callewaert and Fueller, neither closely related to one another. Both are singleton outliers dating back some 3500 years! You're right that F3916 seems to be all that you have left to test... not enough people to compare against to find any more SNPs.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z59+ CTS8647+

    Ethnic group
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    Thank you for the confirmation.
    I am Callewaert indeed and the other one Fueller is F3916+ I believe.
    How did you get that age of 3500 years? Is that the supposed age of Z60?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
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    U4a (Cornish)

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    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wimpy View Post
    Thank you for the confirmation.
    I am Callewaert indeed and the other one Fueller is F3916+ I believe.
    How did you get that age of 3500 years? Is that the supposed age of Z60?
    Nordtvedt has those ages in his tree. He gets them using your STR data and his Generations method. Obviously it's an estimate that's particularly volatile when using so few samples. The age is the approximate TMRCA of CTS8647, which Nordtvedt gives at actually a bit over 3500 years, with Z60, Callewaert, and Fueller all roughly just as far from each other.

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    Country: Netherlands



    Hi , I am CTS8647+ Z60+ Z59+ and a lot more. rgds Arthur

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z59+ CTS8647+

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    Thanks Arthur.
    Last week I received my F3916 result, I'm negative for that SNP.
    Where did your oldest known ancestor came from?

    Wim

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-Z2003 and I1-PF856
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1 and H69

    Ethnic group
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    We're Z59+ Z60- but also PF856+. FTDNA says we're CTS8674- (but we didn't test for yet it).

    I agree it's a lonely place, in that I can't seem to find more information and I want more! :) Patience, I know. What I get out of what I've seen is that this is Saxons who didn't migrate to England, etc. Does that sound right?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z59
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H42

    Ethnic group
    British
    Country: Canada



    I-Z59 here. Father's paternal line from near Swaffham, NW Norfolk, left in 1854. Viking blood, I guess. Love to hear from other I-Z59 men.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
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    U4a (Cornish)

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    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
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    Quote Originally Posted by eslmeister View Post
    I-Z59 here. Father's paternal line from near Swaffham, NW Norfolk, left in 1854. Viking blood, I guess. Love to hear from other I-Z59 men.
    Welcome eslmeister!

    I'd guess I1-Z59 to be Anglo-Saxon rather than Viking, especially for someone with a paternal line from a place as Anglo-Saxon as Norfolk. Do you know if you are Z60+ or Z60-?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z59
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H42

    Ethnic group
    British
    Country: Canada



    Reply to Sparky

    Thanks, Sparkey. I don't think I have data on Z60. The familytreeDNA chart (tree?) just has a blue square on the right with the word Add, which I think means I'd have top pay for additional testing. Same for I-X140, I-F2542, I-L592, I-YSC0000261, I-L338 etc. etc. etc. Is it worth it?

    Thanks too for the suggestion re Anglo-Saxon. mtDNA is H42. The hot spot for that nowadays seems to be in Ukraine/Russia. Anything implied here?

    Bill


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by eslmeister View Post
    Thanks, Sparkey. I don't think I have data on Z60. The familytreeDNA chart (tree?) just has a blue square on the right with the word Add, which I think means I'd have top pay for additional testing. Same for I-X140, I-F2542, I-L592, I-YSC0000261, I-L338 etc. etc. etc. Is it worth it?
    Depends on what your goal is. If you're mainly interested in discovering the ancient origins of your paternal line, then you've already found out that it probably comes from a branch of some of the oldest Europeans, that it later probably became associated with Germanic peoples, and that it most likely spread to Britain with the Anglo-Saxons. You don't need a Z60 test to figure out more there.

    But if your goal is to find out precisely where you belong on the Y-DNA tree, and which other families are most closely related to yours, a Z60 test might help. But before I'd suggest for you to purchase a Z60 test, I'd recommend getting further guidance. Assuming that you've taken a STR test (since you're talking about FTDNA) I'd recommend that you join the I1 Project and see where they place you based on your STRs. You may or may not be able to reasonably skip Z60 in favor of a more precise SNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by eslmeister View Post
    Thanks too for the suggestion re Anglo-Saxon. mtDNA is H42. The hot spot for that nowadays seems to be in Ukraine/Russia. Anything implied here?
    I can't say I know much about H42, but I will say that it's more difficult to draw any conclusions from mtDNA, due to the nature of its lesser bottlenecking and lack of STR type measurables.

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    hi I do have Z60/Z189/Z2069/L533

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
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    H1bi

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiggione View Post
    hi I do have Z60/Z189/Z2069/L533
    We don't know. Did you have a DNA test done? If you did, are you able to share with us the name of the test you took and what results you were provided?

    Do you believe that you have y-haplogroup I1? I1 is fairly rare in Turkey, with J2 and R1b being much more common.

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    Z-59

    Quote Originally Posted by eslmeister View Post
    I-Z59 here. Father's paternal line from near Swaffham, NW Norfolk, left in 1854. Viking blood, I guess. Love to hear from other I-Z59 men.

    I am Z59. Believe my paternal line to be from Germany but trying to confirm. My ancestor arrived in the US in the 1700's and then became a Loyalist and moved to Canada.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-FGC24357
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K2a6

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    Hainaut Belgium and Quebec Canada
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    Im first generation american but can trace my paternity to wallonia belgium to 1600. Im z59-z2041-z2040. My surname is a french version of old high german walthari. Im assuming my haplogroup came with the Franks but slight chance maybe with the normans

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z63
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5c

    Ethnic group
    Bošnjak
    Country: Yugoslavia



    i got Iz63 from Geno 2.0
    I'm Bosnian...
    Am I rare like a polar bear?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wimpy View Post
    As far as I can see there's only a few people tested Z59+ and Z60-
    I'm CTS8674+ and ordered now F3916 which seems the only relevant SNP I didn't test yet. Unless I overlook something?

    Is there anyone else here Z59+/Z60-?
    I've tested I-Z59. I presume this is Z59+/Z60-. My earliest paternal ancestor for which I have a paper trail is Johann Friedrich LANGENBERG (1789-1836), of Hochdorf bei Blankenhain, in what was then Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, today the state of Türingen, Germany. Since there were individuals named LANGENBERG in Hochdorf as early as the 16th and 17th centuries, I assume that they were my people. Ultimately, I think the surname comes from the place name Langenberg, near Gera. I speculate that before they were there (in Langenberg/Gera) they had migrated from farther north and west in that Saxon North Sea area where I-Z59 probably comes from.

    David Langenberg
    Newark, DE

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    I-Z59 is about 4600 years old and probably has an origin in Scandinavia since it's found there as well. You should test your lower subclades to see if you are Z2041 -> Z2040 -> Z382 -> S26361 -> S16414 -> FGC24357. Myself and another forum member are FGC24357 a few levels below you.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 20-08-17 at 01:47. Reason: Addition

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z60
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H47

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    British 58%, Eastern European 31%, Southern Europe 10%, Middle Eastern 1%
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    LivingDNA gives my group as Z60. Earliest direct ancestor with paper trail, late 1600's - GAMBRILL (variations of) Kent, England, UK. Possibly came over from France due to fighting during this time. I am also waiting on my 67Y-DNA test from ftDNA, due this month.

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    my ftdna haplogroup is fgc24357 , my paternal family can be traced back to the coast of holland up to 1475 which could be a settlement of vikings (600 years earlier) but it can also be other germanic tribes
    does anybody knows more about z382 and its subclades or where to find information about it

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-Z2003 and I1-PF856
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    H1 and H69

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    We're Z59+, Z60- and CTS8647-

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    Quote Originally Posted by arend View Post
    my ftdna haplogroup is fgc24357 , my paternal family can be traced back to the coast of holland up to 1475 which could be a settlement of vikings (600 years earlier) but it can also be other germanic tribes
    does anybody knows more about z382 and its subclades or where to find information about it
    Hello FGC24357 cousin. That makes 3 of us now on this forum. According to YFULL this subclade has a TMRCA of 1950 years so it probably originated in Scandinavia. It could have arrived in Sardinia, Holland, Belgium, Germany, and the UK multiple ways from its Scandinavian origin.

    It might be impossible to ever truly associate a subclade with a particular ethnicity or occupation like Saxon or Viking because of all the cross migrations over the Millennia. Hopefully, as more people get tested and more recent subclades get discovered we might be able to narrow down the region or country.

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    Hi Arend, welcome from me too! (the other FGC 24357* on the forum)

    Please consider submitting your results to Y Full.

    Cheers, Ade.

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    hello adrian what would it add to submit the data to Y full and how is their policy with respect to privacy
    arend

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    Quote Originally Posted by arend View Post
    hello adrian what would it add to submit the data to Y full and how is their policy with respect to privacy
    arend
    First, did you do “Big Y” with FTDNA? I think YFULL only accepts comprehensive raw data like with “Big Y” and other thorough Y testing companies. Unfortunately, I never did “Big Y” so I am unable to do YFULL. I found out I was FGC24357 through individual SNP tests. If I were eligible I would do YFULL. I believe it only costs around $50 so it’s a reasonable fee. Not sure what their privacy rules are but they are probably similar to other dna testing companies.

    I’m first generation United States so my country of origin would not be too helpful on yfull. However, my father is Belgian and it would be cool to add a Belgian flag to FGC24357 in addition to the current origins of England, Sweden, and Italy.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 10-12-17 at 17:39. Reason: Addition

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