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    Assembling gods, one letter at a time.

    What if the script that started with:

    FADE IN:

    INT./EXT. NOWHERE AND EVERYWHERE – FIRST SECOND (THE BIG BANG)

    will end with:

    Final A C T: God.

    (and everybody here knows what A, C, T and G stand for. Quite some coincidence, huh?)

    I had this research idea for how to asymptotically approach the absolute knowledge (starts with a short introduction): http://caviar4thought.com/ and, as expected, I have a hard time getting funded. Where do YOU guys get the funds from to create your lil gods?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post


    (and everybody here knows what A, C, T and G stand for. Quite some coincidence, huh?)
    It is in english, A, C, T and doG,lets create dog. As for an atheist person you have a huge dose of mysticism.

    I was thinking about engineering humans ever since I heard news that scientists successfully manipulated DNA, I guess 20 long years ago. It will surely come for two important reasons; everyone would like to be smarter, healthier and good looking; second reason even more important, all parents want their children to be the best ever, and good looking, smart and healthy. There is quite big position at the moment from many people who are afraid of this new world, and as eager to go for it as old people embracing smart phones. With new generations however people will get used to this idea, tools will be there, so why not.

    From your website, I know, that you're really pitching this idea. You have to remember though, that at this moment all genetic engineering is in very, very, very experimental stage. It will take hundred of years if not longer to find a way to assemble best genes only, on a fly and make sure they grow into a desired human being, plus make it affordable for masses. At this moment it is even hard for us to design a computer program which doesn't crash, needs constant debugging and updates. Windows 7 has 50 million lines of code. In case of human we are talking about 3 billion "lines" of code where no mistakes are allowed, with responsibility and liability being astronomical.

    What we are going to see for years to come is " introducing extra DNA" to humans, or shutting down some genes, in order to cure diseases only. True designer babies are many, many decades away.



    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I was thinking about engineering humans ever since I heard news that scientists successfully manipulated DNA, I guess 20 long years ago.
    So what stopped you, LeBrok? Look how much suffering and misery around you, why are you torturing us, why didn't you just engineer them purrfect humans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    So what stopped you, LeBrok? Look how much suffering and misery around you, why are you torturing us, why didn't you just engineer them purrfect humans?
    We don't know how, and it will be a very long time to get to this point, so no rush. :)
    To dress it up in some analogy; there was no chance in hell of building smartphones in 50s, even though by electronic and computing progress one could conclude that we will have these type of devices in the future. When time was ripe Steve Jobs had put existing components together and vu a la.
    In genetic engineering we are in phase of building up the knowledge base, long time to making any components though. We just know that it will be possible in the future.

    And just to entertain this idea any further.
    The environment is not ripe either. Pretty much every government on earth would shut down every lab playing with human embryos.

    How about Dr Evil lab in Antarctica or Under the Sea?

    And yes, one more little detail, I don't have few billions to spare, lol. These things are terribly expensive.

    Perhaps first industry to master genetic engineering will be the pet industry. Anyone for a nice Griffin pet, or a 2 feet tall little Dragon?

    Edit:
    What I forgot to express is that it will take all the scientists of the world working together for decades to accomplish this engineering feat. One lab no matter how rich won't make to big of a difference. At this point we barely read genetic code letter by letter, not understanding the language. Now it will take much much longer and much more brainpower to figure out what every gene does and "junk" dna too.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 13-02-14 at 06:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Pretty much every government on earth would shut down every lab playing with human embryos.
    Except for the governments of US, China, Russia, India, Japan, some European and Arab countries, etc. Anyway we weren't talking 'human embryos' here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    And yes, one more little detail, I don't have few billions to spare, lol. These things are terribly expensive.
    While I have a hard time believing that you don't have a "few billions" handy, actually in the beginning about $20,000,000 might be enough, cuz once you show the world/scientific community some outstanding results the investors will line up at our lab's door to beg us to accept funds from them. Like in over 90% of the startups there's more than one round of funding: show some results and the next rounds will come -- Bill Gates will cold-call you asking how much you need ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    Except for the governments of US, China, Russia, India, Japan, some European and Arab countries, etc. Anyway we weren't talking 'human embryos' here.
    That's why we have to look for none embryonic stem cells?



    While I have a hard time believing that you don't have a "few billions" handy, actually in the beginning about $20,000,000 might be enough, cuz once you show the world/scientific community some outstanding results the investors will line up at our lab's door to beg us to accept funds from them. Like in over 90% of the startups there's more than one round of funding: show some results and the next rounds will come -- Bill Gates will cold-call you asking how much you need ...
    What would you exactly do for 50 million with today's technology in regards to engineering humans?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Your style is a bit difficult to wade through, Caviar. Is this a good summary of your thinking here?:


    • Most current attempts at finding improvements (or really anything that affects us) in the human genome involve correlation analyses with existing mutations
    • This is effectively a lottery because odds are low that a positive mutation will arise at any given time
    • We should be aggressively testing mutations by inducing them in patterns


    It's a reasonable proposition, but has the obvious problem that "inducing them in patterns" has serious ethical and technical issues that you'll need to resolve before you'll get funding. Maybe you can start by getting published on ways to resolve those issues. These will probably need to be self-funded efforts unless you are able to work with a researcher at a university or something. Baby steps.

    Not to mention that I think you're underestimating how often new mutations crop up. For a lottery, it's one that you've got pretty good odds in. Remember that there are billions of people in the world.

    I'm also confused: Are you arguing that there are patterns that are inherently beneficial? This seems extremely doubtful. I'd agree with inducing in patterns if only because certain patterns offer good genome coverage potential. So certain patterns may get you positive results faster, but maybe not for the reason you're thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    (and everybody here knows what A, C, T and G stand for. Quite some coincidence, huh?)
    Not really. The usual order of those is alphabetical (ACGT) which doesn't really spell anything. Unless...

    Always Champion the God of Thunder

    Thor in our DNA? Coincidence???

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    .............


    The usual order of those is alphabetical (ACGT) which doesn't really spell anything. Unless...

    Always Champion the God of Thunder

    Thor in our DNA? Coincidence???
    No need to make Gods - they're already here or, at least, already in Asgard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    It's a reasonable proposition, but has the obvious problem that "inducing them in patterns" has serious ethical and technical issues that you'll need to resolve before you'll get funding.
    I tend to care little about ethics at this moment, all I want is to can talk/argue/brainstorm with some fine scientists, and to bring them together in a state of the art lab is not on the cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I'm also confused: Are you arguing that there are patterns that are inherently beneficial?
    Not "inherently", how about probabilistically?

    What I'm saying is that if I bring the right things (say A and B) at the same table, the odds of a positive outcome are incredible high. A= the fundamental numbers that made our universe possible in a way that, at least on planet Earth, (intelligent) life has developed. B= the DNA that made possible (intelligent) life.

    (Intelligent) life needed both A and B to happen, so how about someone will finally use some common sense and put them together (like in being curious as to what is C in the equation A+B=C)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Actually, LeBrok, I can picture you in a lab like Dr. Evil's, under the Alberta ice. Fortunately, you seem to be a much kinder person than Dr. Evil. Not more moral, perhaps, but much more empathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Actually, LeBrok, I can picture you in a lab like Dr. Evil's, under the Alberta ice. Fortunately, you seem to be a much kinder person than Dr. Evil. Not more moral, perhaps, but much more empathetic.
    Lol, you made my evening.

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    First off let me more clearly define what I’m looking for. I’m an atheist and so science is my ‘religion’ and I get tired of mentioning “gOD” as a metaphor that some dudes might not .. ‘get it.’ From the bable (some call it the bible) perspective I’m a strong atheist since, as of my understanding/logic, an all-powerful entity is just an effin’ nonsense. From a non-all-powerful creator perspective I’m an agnostic: I don’t have enough info, but that would be possible, since we (AND IF), humans, CAN become Supreme Entities able to at least, in the beginning, understand and, thus, rule the Milky Way just to warm up for what we should do – rule, totally control the Universe – we’ll just be the damn creator. Did that already happen a trillion (or an infinite) times already? I dunno, but my research idea is designed to find out the darn answer within our lives, rather than waiting 2 more million years for some lucky mutation (that will open our eyes) to happen.

    Anyway, from now on “gOD” is replaced by SuEn (Supreme Entity). Love it or hate it. But let’s just DO IT! It’s up to us to intelligently make things happen OR watch ‘Dancing with the Stars’ for the next 2,000,000 years deep inside our caves until the ‘lucky mutation’ will happen …

    The lucky mutations elevated us to this level. What we did (AND keep doing as of right now) so far was to try to get comfortable in the environment it just happened we inherited. Now how about instead of being the slaves of the environment (like any other worm, cow, fish … you name it) we flex our neurons and dramatically upgrade our status from being the environment’s slaves to being the environment’s masters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    First off let me more clearly define what I’m looking for. I’m an atheist and so science is my ‘religion’ and I get tired of mentioning “gOD” as a metaphor that some dudes might not .. ‘get it.’ From the bable (some call it the bible) perspective I’m a strong atheist since, as of my understanding/logic, an all-powerful entity is just an effin’ nonsense. From a non-all-powerful creator perspective I’m an agnostic: I don’t have enough info, but that would be possible, since we (AND IF), humans, CAN become Supreme Entities able to at least, in the beginning, understand and, thus, rule the Milky Way just to warm up for what we should do – rule, totally control the Universe – we’ll just be the damn creator. Did that already happen a trillion (or an infinite) times already? I dunno, but my research idea is designed to find out the darn answer within our lives, rather than waiting 2 more million years for some lucky mutation (that will open our eyes) to happen.
    Why do you think that super-human will want to rule Milky Way? Give me one example what would you change in Universe in General? I'm not sure they will find a reason to do anything except thinking and run simulations in their super-brains.

    I suppose you don't want to create one god but whole civilization of human-gods.



    Anyway, from now on “gOD” is replaced by SuEn (Supreme Entity). Love it or hate it. But let’s just DO IT! It’s up to us to intelligently make things happen OR watch ‘Dancing with the Stars’ for the next 2,000,000 years deep inside our caves until the ‘lucky mutation’ will happen …
    Perhaps, the self sustainable future lies in variety of human behaviours, not in only god-likes who can come to conclusion that existence doesn't make sense and "turn off" light in whole universe? As much as we praise intelligence and ourselves, a simple bacteria is still most successful life form on earth and most likely in the universe.

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    LeBrok: you keep proposing unreasonable lengths of time for things to happen, while clearly forgetting that, from a scientific perspective, we’re in an ACCELERATED reality (sorry, no better word comes to my mind right now). Our grandpa didn’t do things the way his grand-grand father did. WE don’t do things the way our grandma did.

    It took humans X years (millenniums) to be able to write. Then it took humans X/Y (Y > 100) to figure out how to communicate over distances with the Morse code. And now (X/Y)/Z (Z>1000) we have smart phones. Keyword: ACCELERATION! We just don’t discover ‘new worlds’ at the same speed Columbus discovered (assuming he did it) America 500 years ago.

    How long did it take for the primates to build the first car, 1,000,000 (just to toss a number at you) years? And how long did it take to install A/C in the car, 100 years? Well, 100 = 1,000,000/10,000 and that’d be 10,000 times FASTER! BUT that happened long time ago and, right now, we’re in the position to make things happen 1,000,000,000 (if not trillions) time faster. Stop complaining that it took humans [enter your number here] hundreds of years to discover penicillin, that’s friggin’ irrelevant in the 21st century! Just keep this in mind: scientifically we don’t go ahead at your grandma’s speed …

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    LeBrok: you keep proposing unreasonable lengths of time for things to happen, while clearly forgetting that, from a scientific perspective, we’re in an ACCELERATED reality (sorry, no better word comes to my mind right now). Our grandpa didn’t do things the way his grand-grand father did. WE don’t do things the way our grandma did.
    I'm not sure why you want to convince me that technological progress accelerates? It has positive loop feedback effect with demographics, education, better tools, computers, etc. It's granted, it is a common knowledge.
    However you proposing building god like human in 10 years, and you call it reasonable.


    It took humans X years (millenniums) to be able to write. Then it took humans X/Y (Y > 100) to figure out how to communicate over distances with the Morse code. And now (X/Y)/Z (Z>1000) we have smart phones. Keyword: ACCELERATION! We just don’t discover ‘new worlds’ at the same speed Columbus discovered (assuming he did it) America 500 years ago.
    We also have been on the moon 50 years ago and 70 years from first rocket. According to your supper accelerated point of view we should be flying interstellar missions, not mentioning intergalactic, and at least have a colony on Mars. We didn't even invent much better propulsion system for long flights, with your trillions time faster technological acceleration!
    For 100 billion dollars and 20 years of work we can enjoy pretty much useless International Space Station, with this amazing technological progress.

    How long did it take for the primates to build the first car, 1,000,000 (just to toss a number at you) years? And how long did it take to install A/C in the car, 100 years? Well, 100 = 1,000,000/10,000 and that’d be 10,000 times FASTER! BUT that happened long time ago and, right now, we’re in the position to make things happen 1,000,000,000 (if not trillions) time faster. Stop complaining that it took humans [enter your number here] hundreds of years to discover penicillin, that’s friggin’ irrelevant in the 21st century! Just keep this in mind: scientifically we don’t go ahead at your grandma’s speed …
    Today's reality is (which you tend not to address) that every new medication cost billion dollars and 10 years, and yes this including ever speeding up technological revolution. And you are talking about "realistic" 10 years to redesign human to god like abilities? 3 billion letters, 20 thousand protein coding genes (which we only started to understand), with even more "junk" DNA (with still mysterious functions), different expressions of genes in different body parts, with many more surprises to come.
    Do you understand the complexity of the problem you want to address?!

    Pretty much for the time frame and money you propose Microsoft corporation managed to redesign Windows Vista to Windows 8 with technology much simpler and completely understood, and still way off being a perfect OS. And yes with accelerating progress.

    Don' t forget to address how you are going to test your new designs to make sure they work properly? How long brain has to grow to full development to make sure it thinks in god like way?
    Keep in mind that even all current supercomputers are not able to simulate whole human body through simulated 100 years of temporal dimension, even assuming constant environment and that we know inner working of full DNA (which we don't).

    Things that I mentioned are just tip of an iceberg of complexity of this issue. 10 years it will take you to find willing investors for this project, if you're lucky and extremely skillful salesman.

    I suggest starting process, progress, understanding and making fortune (to further your goals) from making designer pets for people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    However you proposing building god like human in 10 years, and you call it reasonable.
    Yup, like in believing that 2 + 2 = 4 is ... "reasonable."

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We also have been on the moon 50 years ago
    Indeed! That happened cuz Yuri Gagarin ( a ... Russian from ... Soviet Union) was the first one to journey into outer space, which totally humiliated US. So the big time humiliated US tossed the $$ AND the European scientists to NASA to counter the Russians. Meanwhile US still use Russians/European rockets to park their satellites up there ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Today's reality is (which you tend not to address) that every new medication cost billion dollars and 10 years
    Apparently you're either unable or unwilling to understand what I'm talking about. I am NOT trying to cure baldness and so need some FDA approval that might come after your mentioned "billion dollars and 10 years" waiting period.

    I'm talking here about becoming SuEn and anybody with at least a spinning neuron should take a break from playing video games and pay some attention. As quite opposed to some cherry flavored aspirin, SuEn will NEVER ask for any approval. We're not talking about curing hemorrhoids here, but about becoming SuEn and I could never care less about ethics, religion or whatever else is desperately trying to oppose science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caviar4thought View Post
    Yup, like in believing that 2 + 2 = 4 is ... "reasonable."
    I think that somehow this issue looks simple to you like this equation. Sadly I see that you are light years away from reality.
    The logic works as simple 2+2, however the complexity of "god DNA" engineering is astronomical. This latter part evades your attention.

    Indeed! That happened cuz Yuri Gagarin ( a ... Russian from ... Soviet Union) was the first one to journey into outer space, which totally humiliated US. So the big time humiliated US tossed the $$ AND the European scientists to NASA to counter the Russians. Meanwhile US still use Russians/European rockets to park their satellites up there ...
    Point being? Are we still talking accelerated progress or lack of it?


    Apparently you're either unable or unwilling to understand what I'm talking about. I am NOT trying to cure baldness and so need some FDA approval that might come after your mentioned "billion dollars and 10 years" waiting period.
    No, it takes ten years to scientifically/statistical prove validity of a medication. That's what FDA wants. Otherwise how do you know if stuff works? Same proof will be on you to your investors (unless you have billions yourself) to justify their investment.
    Don't avoid my questions. I'm askin you for third time. How will you test engineered DNA? How will you know yourself that you are on the right track?
    Are you going to talk to the DNA in a petri dish to see if it is smart? Right. How will you know then?

    I'm talking here about becoming SuEn and anybody with at least a spinning neuron should take a break from playing video games and pay some attention. As quite opposed to some cherry flavored aspirin, SuEn will NEVER ask for any approval. We're not talking about curing hemorrhoids here, but about becoming SuEn and I could never care less about ethics, religion or whatever else is desperately trying to oppose science.
    That's why every government and ruling scientific body will close you down faster than you open. Your arrogance and short sightedness will scare investor too. Do you remember story about Tesla?
    Unless thanks to trillion fold acceleration in inventions you'll open a base on moon in 5 years with no one jurisdiction stopping you. I shouldn't even tell you this, you know the best how easy it is.

  18. #18
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    LeBrok (my 2 pennies in 2 points):

    1. Obviously you don’t care much about the research idea per se, all you care about is that it’ll take thousands of years (WRONG!) and it’ll be opposed by the FDA (WRONG #2). Lemme give ya a counterexample: do you really think that the R&D Dept of the US Army (or any other military in the world, for that matter) would ever ask or give a flying f**k on what FDA or PETA OR the Pope think?! To give ya an example so cheap that even you can understand: Do you think that Galileo asked for the church permission to build his telescope? Huh?

    2. Nope, it won’t take thousands of years. The ‘Mighty Potato’ experiment that will give us some solid understanding as to what the MML is (yeap, for plants only, at this level, but still a fabulous info) should take less than 2 years, given that we have the right resources (I’m talking $$ here. Smart dudes are all over the place: give them the right incentive and they’ll join your project in the next second). The experiments on primates (to figure out THEIR MML) shouldn’t take longer than 7-8 years (and keep in mind that now, once we proved to the world/scientific community that the potato’s MML makes perfect sense, we’ll have not billions in funding, but unlimited funding. The whole planet will go hysterical.

    So, well, how about you just stop being 101% negative? You really can’t see anything positive in a scientific research idea? From the very beginning all you cared about was to say ‘NO, it won’t work!’ Nothing constructive, everything that comes from you is 101% negative, u’re precisely the dude that nobody will ever want in their research team …

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    You have to add vision and marketing. These were the main skills of Steve Jobs.
    robot flirt with, an ATM's A
    As long as robots have no emotions there will be no flirting, only following the program. Also for that reason "computer god" will be much safer for humankind than "human god" who would have emotions and might get angry and kill us, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    As long as robots have no emotions there will be no flirting, only following the program.
    See the movie "Her," you'll surely love it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    for that reason "computer god" will be much safer for humankind than "human god" who would have emotions and might get angry and kill us, lol.
    You say that cuz you're stuck in monotheism. How about there'll be a few billions of "human gods" all having the power to destroy the universe? -- Now that's what I call fun ...

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