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Thread: Genome of 12,600 year-old boy from Clovis culture confirms origin of Amerindians

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    I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but as I said in the Solutrean hypothesis thread, what I find odd is the geographical distance separating the main Y-dna clade of Native Americans, Q-M3, and its closest branch on the tree, Q-L804. Q-L804 has only been found in northwest Europe, namely England, Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Sweden and German, while Q-M3 has only been found in the Americas. If we assume that their MRCA lived in Siberia around 15,000 years ago and one branch went east to America becoming Q-M3 and the other went west to northwest Europe becoming Q-L804, how come there’s no trace of any ancestors in between? I wonder how common that is. Is there any other known haplogroup clade where the geographical distance separating its closest branch like that is so large?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I'm not sure the Amerindian technologies are proof of late but pre-Columbian contact. Different people have different opinions on the subject but I think the Native American cultivation of crops that originated in the Americas, such as maize, potatoes, squash and tobacco, could easily have been a separate development from farming in the rest of the world. Likewise with the development of pottery. I don't think we really know when bow hunting started - it could be a very old technique. And although Amerindians apparently used cold hammered copper for thousands of years, metallurgy only seems to have developed in South America about 2200 years BP, among groups that were famous for their pottery, such as the Moche. It took close to 1000 years for metallurgy to appear in Mexico, and it doesn't seem to have gone any further north than that during the pre-Columbian period. So I would say that metallurgy was definitely a separate development in the Americas, and pottery and farming could have been.

    I'm not suggesting that these technologies came from Europe necessarily or at all, as in my view they most likely came from Asia, but I don't buy the multi-invention scenario.
    Take ceramic pottery, for example. Identifying high silica content base material, its refinement, tempering, coiling and then maintaining the right temperature/oxygen flow in a kiln to a product that in the end looks Eurasian seems more than coincidental. If cold-hammering native copper or coiling pottery is so naturally intuitive, then why didn't Gravettian or Magdallean people do this?

    So in my mind immigrants must have been coming to America as late as 5-7 kypb regardless if the Americas were originally populated in the LGM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    I'm not suggesting that these technologies came from Europe necessarily or at all, as in my view they most likely came from Asia, but I don't buy the multi-invention scenario.
    Take ceramic pottery, for example. Identifying high silica content base material, its refinement, tempering, coiling and then maintaining the right temperature/oxygen flow in a kiln to a product that in the end looks Eurasian seems more than coincidental. If cold-hammering native copper or coiling pottery is so naturally intuitive, then why didn't Gravettian or Magdallean people do this?

    So in my mind immigrants must have been coming to America as late as 5-7 kypb regardless if the Americas were originally populated in the LGM.
    Recent finds date the earliest known pottery at 20.000 ago.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/sc...hina.html?_r=0

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    If the Americas were populated by hunter/gatherers from Siberia, I don't think farming or pottery making would have been part of the skill set of such people. The archeological information available to date suggests that farming, pottery making and metallurgy in the Americas were local developments. And, once again, we have metallurgy first emerging in the form of copper smelting among people who made high quality pottery than was fired in kilns. That's significant to me because the melting temperature for copper is lower than the firing temperature for glazed pottery (which was only made in certain parts of the Americas).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    If the Americas were populated by hunter/gatherers from Siberia, I don't think farming or pottery making would have been part of the skill set of such people. The archeological information available to date suggests that farming, pottery making and metallurgy in the Americas were local developments. And, once again, we have metallurgy first emerging in the form of copper smelting among people who made high quality pottery than was fired in kilns. That's significant to me because the melting temperature for copper is lower than the firing temperature for glazed pottery (which was only made in certain parts of the Americas).

    I think as you; but the copper is a metal complicated has purified for the get but it is also the case for the gold, and then the mixture to obtain the bronze cannot be improvised., because it does not include only to mix with tin and therefore the aim is to obtain a hard tool and flexible enough; therefore it took a technology to arrive at the result and the bagpiper more sophisticated in the oven of the pottery or the meal would be a good track. But he did not seem appropriate to the Amerindians of industrially use this technology and we have the example in the pieces of steel (between 15th* or 16th century:Study by spectrography) that exchanged the Basques with the Algonquin tribes, and that they used so business has been dominated more as a sign of wealth or a precious stone by burying them with their leader or owner and as for gold it was.
    The Indians seem to have an approach to the metallurgy very different from that of Europeans whose relationship is essentially utility; but it is also so that the deposits of obsidian, flint and basalt rock are very consistent on the America, which makes non-essential the forged metals; and the same for the wheel which seems it also without usefulness in the mountainous regions and should be used only for children's toys. But concerning what is utility to the Amerindian peoples the process is comparable.
    According to my opinion or the belief that me are personal
    * The Americas including the America-north are officially discovered in 1492, and everything that is is official text of gospel (taboo); but I am not a believer.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    But it directly contradicts the Solutrean hypothesis, which states that there is a connection between the Solutrean culture and Clovis in particular. What's of interest is the similarities between Solutrean and Clovis industries, and now there's some genetic evidence (admittedly only 1 sample and we still don't have a true Solutrean sample) that there's no Solutrean-Clovis genetic connection. It doesn't disprove Solutrean entirely, but it's very strong evidence against it.
    There is Clovis, Solutrean and Dyuktai, all 3 cultures have similar spearpoints.
    Before this study, I believed there was a connection between Dyuktai and Clovis, now I doubt that.
    It seems to me these spearpoints were develloped seperately by people who had advanced skills in working the stones and who had megafauna on their tundra hunting grounds.
    Once the megafauna got extinct, the spearpoints dissapeared or diminished in size to hunt smaller game (bisons in North-America with Folsom points, reindeer in Europe with atlatl and bow and arrow).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I was utterly shocked that Raghavan et al., who consist of population geneticists from assorted European and American universities, could think that the Mal'ta boy was such a blend. I was even more dismayed when the scientific press meekly repeated those absurdities without thinking.

    I told many times, some Native Indians are R1, and descending from Mal'ta.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929707612932

    The same thing happened here : the researchers mentioned the possiblity that R1 was the result of admixture by European colonisers.
    But everyone started aceepting this as a fact without proof.

    I agree, there probably was some admixture, but it does not explain the 25 % R1 in Native Americans, and upto 80 % in some Northamerican tribes.

    This study proves Clovis were not R1, but there must have been multiple migrations from Siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I told many times, some Native Indians are R1, and descending from Mal'ta.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929707612932

    The same thing happened here : the researchers mentioned the possiblity that R1 was the result of admixture by European colonisers.
    But everyone started aceepting this as a fact without proof.

    I agree, there probably was some admixture, but it does not explain the 25 % R1 in Native Americans, and upto 80 % in some Northamerican tribes.

    This study proves Clovis were not R1, but there must have been multiple migrations from Siberia.
    That's the study I was looking for. Thanks.

    Interesting that there is even 5% of R1a1a among the Guaymi (aka Ngäbe) of Panama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    There is Clovis, Solutrean and Dyuktai, all 3 cultures have similar spearpoints.
    Before this study, I believed there was a connection between Dyuktai and Clovis, now I doubt that.
    It seems to me these spearpoints were develloped seperately by people who had advanced skills in working the stones and who had megafauna on their tundra hunting grounds.
    Once the megafauna got extinct, the spearpoints dissapeared or diminished in size to hunt smaller game (bisons in North-America with Folsom points, reindeer in Europe with atlatl and bow and arrow).
    this is the effect of a disaster of a giant asteroid that explodes by hitting the resistive layer of the lower atmosphere and the huge fire forests that covered the plains and were similar to the Siberian forest. And to destroy it needed only a few weeks.
    R* can be originally in the region of the Lake Baikal, they find R1 in regions Siberian and even R2 who would have been born there and would have follow migrated southward.
    Can to be the forefather of Q and R had made the road of Pakistan to northward and would have then become divided.
    But it makes go back up much more in time far but can be it is necessary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    And this is exactly why, Kalash are a good source population. L is not Indian nor is G exclusively Iranian. Ultimately L, R, H and J have ultimately one ANE origin. People are so excited about the R* found in the Mal'ta individual while they completely forget that Kalash have 7% of R* and 2.5% R1* themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The only solace I find is a hint of Irano-Gedrosian admixture in the Anzick-1 sample's K=11 admixture. The Anzick boy has nearly 100% of Native American admixture, 0% of Siberian, 0% East Asian (Chinese, Japanese), BUT 1 or 2% of the admixture that peaks in the Kalash, and is also found at high frequency in the Hazara, Sindhi, Balochi, Burusho, Persians, etc., and at a lower (10-15%) frequency in all Caucasian and European populations, except the Sardinians. This part of the original admixture of Y-DNA R, and could confirm that R1* was indeed present alongside X2a in the Upper Palaeolithic North American population that was replaced by the Clovis people.

    Mal'ta has a large (37%) Kalash component so the small Kalash component may actually be proof of gene flow from Malta people to proto-amerindians:

    http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png


    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but as I said in the Solutrean hypothesis thread, what I find odd is the geographical distance separating the main Y-dna clade of Native Americans, Q-M3, and its closest branch on the tree, Q-L804. Q-L804 has only been found in northwest Europe, namely England, Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Sweden and German, while Q-M3 has only been found in the Americas. If we assume that their MRCA lived in Siberia around 15,000 years ago and one branch went east to America becoming Q-M3 and the other went west to northwest Europe becoming Q-L804, how come there’s no trace of any ancestors in between?
    Afontova Gora is a find that was rather contaminated. They found markers for R1a and Q. R1a is considered to be due to the contaminations.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...tova-R1a/page7

    Also, with globe 13 you see a tiny American Indian admixture in Swedish hunter-gatherers. So it may very well be possible that ANE brought Q to the west as well as eastward.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Aif8O5EXGN...00/globe13.png

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    Thanks, epoch. It's kind of a crap shoot but maybe it's an ancient admixture within those ancient Swedish hunter gatherer samples. We seem to be having relatively good success with those high latitude ancient dna samples, so I suspect a Q will eventually turn up sometime.

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    @epoch: I just noticed something. In the Swedish hunter-gatherer Ajv70 globe13 breakdown you gave:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Aif8O5EXGN...00/globe13.png in addition to the 3.1% Amerindian, it also shows 3.5% Australasian. And in the link you gave of the 9-component breakdown of MA-1, it looks like MA-1 came out as 16% Amerindian and 4% Papuan/Melanesian: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png I wonder if it has to do with the MP internal node that joins haplogroups M,P,Q and R together on one branch of the tree: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/...geny-from.html
    And y-dna M is certainly centred around Melanesia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_M-P256

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Thanks, epoch. It's kind of a crap shoot but maybe it's an ancient admixture within those ancient Swedish hunter gatherer samples. We seem to be having relatively good success with those high latitude ancient dna samples, so I suspect a Q will eventually turn up sometime.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    @epoch: I just noticed something. In the Swedish hunter-gatherer Ajv70 globe13 break
    down you gave:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Aif8O5EXGN...00/globe13.png in addition to the 3.1% Amerindian, it also shows 3.5% Australasian. And in the link you gave of the 9-component breakdown of MA-1, it looks like MA-1 came out as 16% Amerindian and 4% Papuan/Melanesian: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png I wonder if it has to do with the MP internal node that joins haplogroups M,P,Q and R together on one branch of the tree: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/...geny-from.html
    And y-dna M is certainly centred around Melanesia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_M-P256
    It will be extremely interesting to see what the oldest Siberian genome of the Ust-Ishim femur will be like, when it will published. Already information is provided that it contains larger chunks of Neanderthal DNA than current day populations. It appears to be a very good example so admixture results could be a surprise.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/03/...m-siberia.html

    On account of the Australasian, Papuan and Melanesian admixture of MA-1 and Ajvide an idea came up: Could that be actually Denisovan admixture? Mind you, this is a wild assumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    It will be extremely interesting to see what the oldest Siberian genome of the Ust-Ishim femur will be like, when it will published. Already information is provided that it contains larger chunks of Neanderthal DNA than current day populations. It appears to be a very good example so admixture results could be a surprise.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/03/...m-siberia.html

    On account of the Australasian, Papuan and Melanesian admixture of MA-1 and Ajvide an idea came up: Could that be actually Denisovan admixture? Mind you, this is a wild assumption.
    I don't expect any connection with the Clovis boy, Ust-Ishim is western Siberia and the time difference is almost 30.000 years.

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    Yes, the Ust-Ishim genome should be interesting. I'm glad that this time they seem to have gotten good Neanderthal dna quantifications. And yes, maybe Denisovan dna was carried by y-dna M. It will be interesting to see how all this sorts out in the end - if we ever get enough samples.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't expect any connection with the Clovis boy, Ust-Ishim is western Siberia and the time difference is almost 30.000 years.
    Mal'ta has partly Amerindian admixture. He was also 24.000 years old, that is before the generally assumed 15.000 years ago that America was populated. So, an Amerindian ancestry was part of middle Siberians before America was settled. If the oldest, the most original of all Siberians does not carry it, then where did Mal'ta's Amerindian part came from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Mal'ta has partly Amerindian admixture. He was also 24.000 years old, that is before the generally assumed 15.000 years ago that America was populated. So, an Amerindian ancestry was part of middle Siberians before America was settled. If the oldest, the most original of all Siberians does not carry it, then where did Mal'ta's Amerindian part came from?
    No. No. No. Mal'ta Boy was not partly Amerindian admixture. He was related to people who became the ancestors of other people, including Amerindians. Some of his relatives may have had descendants who hung around Siberia until they moved to the Americas, or they may have migrated south then moved up the coast to the Americas - we don't really know. People probably moved around a lot as hunter/gatherer types living in a lightly populated world. But look at the time frame - Mal'ta Boy and his relatives clearly came before there were any Amerindians, so they couldn't have been partly Amerindian. Mal"ta Boy died too young to leave descendants but some of his relatives would have formed part of the ancestry of several other groups, including Amerindians.

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    I gotta admit, was there a conflict when Haplogroup N entered Central Asia 12,000 years ago? I find it quite a coincidence that Paleo Native Americans were crossing the Bering landbridge around that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No. No. No. Mal'ta Boy was not partly Amerindian admixture. He was related to people who became the ancestors of other people, including Amerindians. Some of his relatives may have had descendants who hung around Siberia until they moved to the Americas, or they may have migrated south then moved up the coast to the Americas - we don't really know. People probably moved around a lot as hunter/gatherer types living in a lightly populated world. But look at the time frame - Mal'ta Boy and his relatives clearly came before there were any Amerindians, so they couldn't have been partly Amerindian. Mal"ta Boy died too young to leave descendants but some of his relatives would have formed part of the ancestry of several other groups, including Amerindians.
    O, perhaps I should have phrased that differently. However, Mal'ta carried DNA that shows relations to Amerindians. He is older than settlement in America. I think that means that bicicleurs idea that the ancient West-Siberians DNA shows no Mal'ta affinity may not be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    I gotta admit, was there a conflict when Haplogroup N entered Central Asia 12,000 years ago? I find it quite a coincidence that Paleo Native Americans were crossing the Bering landbridge around that time.
    I thought they reached the americas earlier.

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