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Thread: Mapping admixtures

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some aspects are interesting, but as Dienekes said, it contradicts the archeological evidence.

    For instance 'Scottish' has overwhelming 'Irish' ancestry (no surprise), but 'Welsh' have zero 'Irish'.
    The 'Welsh' are about half 'Italian', but 'Scottish' are zero 'Italian'.
    That makes no sense. Or it shows only very recent admixtures.
    Interesting though again the 'Baloch' and 'Lezgin' link for 'Scottish'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Some aspects are interesting, but as Dienekes said, it contradicts the archeological evidence.

    For instance 'Scottish' has overwhelming 'Irish' ancestry (no surprise), but 'Welsh' have zero 'Irish'.
    The 'Welsh' are about half 'Italian', but 'Scottish' are zero 'Italian'.
    That makes no sense. Or it shows only very recent admixtures.
    Interesting though again the 'Baloch' and 'Lezgin' link for 'Scottish'.
    The Welsh show 26% Italian, not half italian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The Welsh show 26% Italian, not half italian.
    You are right, thanks for correction. Yet my basic point remains.

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    it has has sense, when they writes you Basque are in 96 % Spanish; purpose Spanish are in 12 % Basque? Especially when they know that basques are has big part of ancient Gaulishes of France.
    Last edited by martiko; 14-02-14 at 17:40.

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    Hmm this makes no sense to me, i did notice some of the samples are really low.
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I haven't plowed through the supplement yet, but I did look at the companion site quickly to check the results for northern Italians and Tuscans, as those are my two ancestral groups.

    I find the ratio of "Cypriot" like, to "Welsh" like for the northern Italians, and "Cypriot" like and "French" like for the Tuscans a little surprising:
    Northern Italians: 33/63
    Tuscans: 45/55

    I'm assuming that the "Cypriot" like population is the pre-Gallic "native" population? So, does that mean that the Italics, including the Romans, were "Cypriot" like, or just that the Italics were so low in number that they didn't change the prior EEF population very much, to use a Lazaridis term?

    I suppose you could say that the 48% specifically English and Welsh for the northern Italians could be correlated with the Gallic invasions. The paper's date for the admixture, which is approximately in the middle of the first millennium B. C. would fit. But if the 8.6% German is a stand in for the Longobard admixture, that would have arrived much later in the AD/CE period.

    Things are even more confusing for the Tuscans. It makes sense that their English and Welsh would be less, about 27% versus 48% for the northern Italians, but why do Tuscans have almost double the amount of German as the northern Italians? Everything I know says that the Langobard presence was stronger in the north. And why is the admixture dated so late in the Common Era for them, much later than for the northern Italians? The lowest edge of the range barely overlaps with the Lombard invasion, but what about the "British" admixture? Unless, as these dating programs seem to do, it's only picking up the last admixture date and folding in the older ones. That still doesn't explain why the specifically German one is higher than in northern Italians, however.

    There's also the conflict with the Ralph and Coop paper to consider. While they did pick up the Gallic admixture in the middle of the first millenium B.C., they are very clear that they saw very minimal admixture in Italy after that time. So, which approach is more accurate? Perhaps Ralph and Coop as they are looking at specific, very small "bites" of the genome?

    Well, if this paper is correct, it would explain why earlier work showed that while modern Tuscans are very similar to early medieval Tuscans, they're not similar at all, at least in terms of mtDNA, to the Etruscans. So, we full or half Tuscans have the Renaissance, but not the Etruscans, at least genetically? What a disappointment if that's true.

    Also, it would prove how unreliable phenotypes can be...I constantly see people who look as if they are Etruscan statues come to life. The power of dominant genes perhaps?

    It also occurs to me to wonder how this correlates to the yDNA signatures in Italy, especially R1b U-152. Is it Gallic then? If it is, what does that say about the millions of words expended trying to explain the arrival of the Indo-European languages like Italic into Europe with steppe herders in the second millennium B.C.? And what haplogroup would have carried the "Germanic" input? In northern Italy, you might say U-106, but what about in Toscana?

    And how does this correlate to Lazaridis et al proportions for all the European populations?

    Tons of questions, I know, but I wanted to put them out there...


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hello Angela!
    I did not read these papers, I will and shall do
    concerning physical aspect don't forget genuine Etruscans of eastern origin seem having been only a narrow elite population - it seems confirmed by surveys about mt DNA showing the links between central Italy and Anatolia Near-East for mt DNA are OLD links and not recent history ones for the most - more neolithical - and mt DNA says nothing about global phenotype - historical Etruscans (as depicted and not depicted) were more an autochtonal population + some I-E italics (Umbrians) than a true etruscan one
    more genrally I have some defiance against these comparisons with local populations like -'welsh', 'irish', 'german', 'basque'... no sense for me: only components have some value (and yet...) not global modern state or districts populations

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Hello Angela!
    I did not read these papers, I will and shall do
    concerning physical aspect don't forget genuine Etruscans of eastern origin seem having been only a narrow elite population - it seems confirmed by surveys about mt DNA showing the links between central Italy and Anatolia Near-East for mt DNA are OLD links and not recent history ones for the most - more neolithical - and mt DNA says nothing about global phenotype - historical Etruscans (as depicted and not depicted) were more an autochtonal population + some I-E italics (Umbrians) than a true etruscan one
    more genrally I have some defiance against these comparisons with local populations like -'welsh', 'irish', 'german', 'basque'... no sense for me: only components have some value (and yet...) not global modern state or districts populations
    Good points, Moesan. Let us know what you think after you read the paper.

    I suppose part of my problem is that I've identified as purely Mediterranean my whole life. I should know better, of course...there's no "pure" anything. Still, these "northern" percentages seem really high. If I average the two groups, I come out about 39/61. My poor father, God rest his soul, must be turning over in his grave!

    Ed. I don't mean any offense...absolutely nothing wrong with having northern ancestry, and much of which to be proud. It's just that my father was convinced and had me convinced when I was younger that we were the "pure" descendents of the Etruscans and the Romans. So much for that! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I haven't plowed through the supplement yet, but I did look at the companion site quickly to check the results for northern Italians and Tuscans, as those are my two ancestral groups.

    I find the ratio of "Cypriot" like, to "Welsh" like for the northern Italians, and "Cypriot" like and "French" like for the Tuscans a little surprising:
    Northern Italians: 33/63
    Tuscans: 45/55

    I'm assuming that the "Cypriot" like population is the pre-Gallic "native" population? So, does that mean that the Italics, including the Romans, were "Cypriot" like, or just that the Italics were so low in number that they didn't change the prior EEF population very much, to use a Lazaridis term?

    I suppose you could say that the 48% specifically English and Welsh for the northern Italians could be correlated with the Gallic invasions. The paper's date for the admixture, which is approximately in the middle of the first millennium B. C. would fit. But if the 8.6% German is a stand in for the Longobard admixture, that would have arrived much later in the AD/CE period.

    Things are even more confusing for the Tuscans. It makes sense that their English and Welsh would be less, about 27% versus 48% for the northern Italians, but why do Tuscans have almost double the amount of German as the northern Italians? Everything I know says that the Langobard presence was stronger in the north. And why is the admixture dated so late in the Common Era for them, much later than for the northern Italians? The lowest edge of the range barely overlaps with the Lombard invasion, but what about the "British" admixture? Unless, as these dating programs seem to do, it's only picking up the last admixture date and folding in the older ones. That still doesn't explain why the specifically German one is higher than in northern Italians, however.

    There's also the conflict with the Ralph and Coop paper to consider. While they did pick up the Gallic admixture in the middle of the first millenium B.C., they are very clear that they saw very minimal admixture in Italy after that time. So, which approach is more accurate? Perhaps Ralph and Coop as they are looking at specific, very small "bites" of the genome?

    Well, if this paper is correct, it would explain why earlier work showed that while modern Tuscans are very similar to early medieval Tuscans, they're not similar at all, at least in terms of mtDNA, to the Etruscans. So, we full or half Tuscans have the Renaissance, but not the Etruscans, at least genetically? What a disappointment if that's true.

    Also, it would prove how unreliable phenotypes can be...I constantly see people who look as if they are Etruscan statues come to life. The power of dominant genes perhaps?

    It also occurs to me to wonder how this correlates to the yDNA signatures in Italy, especially R1b U-152. Is it Gallic then? If it is, what does that say about the millions of words expended trying to explain the arrival of the Indo-European languages like Italic into Europe with steppe herders in the second millennium B.C.? And what haplogroup would have carried the "Germanic" input? In northern Italy, you might say U-106, but what about in Toscana?

    And how does this correlate to Lazaridis et al proportions for all the European populations?

    Tons of questions, I know, but I wanted to put them out there...
    I think people need to look deeper into what the "buttons" refer to.......like, the north-Italian button is the Bergamo admixture one, which refers to also tyrolese and eastern swiss ( as well as north italian ) people.
    The hungarian would incorporate slovaks, ancient pannonia area etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Good points, Moesan. Let us know what you think after you read the paper.

    I suppose part of my problem is that I've identified as purely Mediterranean my whole life. I should know better, of course...there's no "pure" anything. Still, these "northern" percentages seem really high. If I average the two groups, I come out about 39/61. My poor father, God rest his soul, must be turning over in his grave!

    Ed. I don't mean any offense...absolutely nothing wrong with having northern ancestry, and much of which to be proud. It's just that my father was convinced and had me convinced when I was younger that we were the "pure" descendents of the Etruscans and the Romans. So much for that! :)
    I read these mixture reading as going both ways. how are you reading it?

    as an example. my ftdna haplogroup origns ( a very powerful indicator as mentioned by experts) under ydna has only 2 names, italy and ireland, to me it refers to irish have my italian mix and my italian has irish mix.
    These buttons on this admixture map refer to the same system ( going both ways)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I read these mixture reading as going both ways. how are you reading it?

    as an example. my ftdna haplogroup origns ( a very powerful indicator as mentioned by experts) under ydna has only 2 names, italy and ireland, to me it refers to irish have my italian mix and my italian has irish mix.
    These buttons on this admixture map refer to the same system ( going both ways)
    But the admixture doesn't go both ways in this analysis unless I missed something. Northern Italians are 48% English and Welsh, but those groups are not 48% Italian. By all means check the other nationalities...maybe I got something wrong. I did it late last night.

    As for yDNA haplogroups, they're far less informative in my opinion than autosomal DNA. It's only one marker. Someone could share the exact same subclade as you do, and because it is unusual in his country, he could share very little recent autosomal admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    But the admixture doesn't go both ways in this analysis unless I missed something. Northern Italians are 48% English and Welsh, but those groups are not 48% Italian. By all means check the other nationalities...maybe I got something wrong. I did it late last night.

    As for yDNA haplogroups, they're far less informative in my opinion than autosomal DNA. It's only one marker. Someone could share the exact same subclade as you do, and because it is unusual in his country, he could share very little recent autosomal admixture.
    ?
    I just checked some samples
    welsh to north-italian = 12.1%
    north-italian to welsh = 11.6%

    ok its not 100% , but .5 of a percent is close enough for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ?
    I just checked some samples
    welsh to north-italian = 12.1%
    north-italian to welsh = 11.6%

    ok its not 100% , but .5 of a percent is close enough for me
    O.K., we're comparing apples and oranges. The 48% which I jotted down and posted about is the total for English (36.2) and Welsh (12.1). I see the correspondence for the Welsh, but the English aren't listed as having any Italian admixture at all.

    The English do have Welsh admixture according to this (41%), but even if you take 41% of the Welsh southern and northern Italian total (about 25%) you don't get anywhere near 36%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    O.K., we're comparing apples and oranges. The 48% which I jotted down and posted about is the total for English (36.2) and Welsh (12.1). I see the correspondence for the Welsh, but the English aren't listed as having any Italian admixture at all.

    The English do have Welsh admixture according to this (41%), but even if you take 41% of the Welsh southern and northern Italian total (about 25%) you don't get anywhere near 36%.
    we differ on what we read
    The more you delve into it the more you get out of it, especially the eastern european markers with the different split you can get ( top right corner)

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    I can not get the links to work on my computer .What does it say about england?thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    I can not get the links to work on my computer .What does it say about england?thanks
    sometimes its takes 10 seconds to load and sometimes 2 minutes

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Some aspects are interesting, but as Dienekes said, it contradicts the archeological evidence.

    For instance 'Scottish' has overwhelming 'Irish' ancestry (no surprise), but 'Welsh' have zero 'Irish'.
    The 'Welsh' are about half 'Italian', but 'Scottish' are zero 'Italian'.
    That makes no sense. Or it shows only very recent admixtures.
    Interesting though again the 'Baloch' and 'Lezgin' link for 'Scottish'.

    Thats what I thought too. It explains well the relation of populations by modern "admixture" but it completely ignores how these admixture portions are made up themselves. I mean, I see ~20% Scottish in Kalash, yet no Kalash in Scots. Why especially Scottish? And I doubt that any Scott moved down the South-Central Asia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    so English people had a lot of Welsh but French people has a lot of English without Welsh.....................................
    I'm too old!...
    my poor brain is heating too much when I try to understand these "admixtures" calculations - as others here I have the impression carrots, potatoes and bananas have been mixed -
    perhaps the new basic elements of comparisons are banarrots, potananas, carrotoes, potarrotonas...??? I'm going to take my pills and go to bed without supper nor even a drink!
    I'm destroyed!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    so English people had a lot of Welsh but French people has a lot of English without Welsh.....................................
    I'm too old!...
    my poor brain is heating too much when I try to understand these "admixtures" calculations - as others here I have the impression carrots, potatoes and bananas have been mixed -
    perhaps the new basic elements of comparisons are banarrots, potananas, carrotoes, potarrotonas...??? I'm going to take my pills and go to bed without supper nor even a drink!
    I'm destroyed!
    I have my issues with the conclusions drawn in this paper, but even with papers that make sense to me, like Lazaridis et al or Ralph and Coop, while I try to blunder through the math, at a certain point I just have to take it on faith...that or spend all my time on this. I thought I was pretty good at mathematics, but either I've forgotten a lot, or they've gone beyond me, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    so English people had a lot of Welsh but French people has a lot of English without Welsh.....................................
    I'm too old!...
    my poor brain is heating too much when I try to understand these "admixtures" calculations - as others here I have the impression carrots, potatoes and bananas have been mixed -
    perhaps the new basic elements of comparisons are banarrots, potananas, carrotoes, potarrotonas...??? I'm going to take my pills and go to bed without supper nor even a drink!
    I'm destroyed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have my issues with the conclusions drawn in this paper, but even with papers that make sense to me, like Lazaridis et al or Ralph and Coop, while I try to blunder through the math, at a certain point I just have to take it on faith...that or spend all my time on this. I thought I was pretty good at mathematics, but either I've forgotten a lot, or they've gone beyond me, lol.
    Lol, it sounds so human and you make my heart soft. This surely takes extreme brain gymnastics.
    Thanks for opening up.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have my issues with the conclusions drawn in this paper, but even with papers that make sense to me, like Lazaridis et al or Ralph and Coop, while I try to blunder through the math, at a certain point I just have to take it on faith...that or spend all my time on this. I thought I was pretty good at mathematics, but either I've forgotten a lot, or they've gone beyond me, lol.
    What maths do you need?

    The arrows go in one direction..........example some of Tuscany ( arrow going to tuscany )
    English (18.6%)GermanyAustria (15.0%)Welsh (8.1%)NorthItalian (6.5%)French (4.4%

    You don't expect 15.0% of tuscans to go back to Germany..........do you.? the 15% germans would be replaced by someone else. That shows how migrations work

    Basically each marker is separate and not aligned with each other...makes sense to me

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    Why trust a genetic atlas with samples of SIX or EIGHT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post

    For instance 'Scottish' has overwhelming 'Irish' ancestry (no surprise), but 'Welsh' have zero 'Irish'.
    The 'Welsh' are about half 'Italian', but 'Scottish' are zero 'Italian'.
    That makes no sense. Or it shows only very recent admixtures.
    Interesting though again the 'Baloch' and 'Lezgin' link for 'Scottish'.
    The Welsh dilemma is kind of a stumper, seeing that 10% of Brits have an Irish grandparent. The sample is realy small only 4 individuals. Going through the different nationalities most samples are small. I don't see how 50 samples could give you an accurate picture of an entire countries autosomal picture. It's a start and will be interesting to periodically take a look and see if their sample base increases.

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    they didnt add the dutch,danes or belguim

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