Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

Sile said:
I do not know until Adriano does my results ........have you seen them?

You can compare yours with Puiatti ............I saw your name, but results for you are all stated as ?

maybe you got them privately.............but Puiatti is in Friuli, in an area where Italians state Carnielo people ( ancient Carni tribe ) live.........Italians still use the phrase for the area in question, basically the friulian alps, East of the Ladini people.
Click to expand...

I downloaded Adriano's 23andMe's results and I saw Puiatti's but not your's yet. On the Geno set of results, not all are listed as "?" just for certain markers...I do have "+" for some. I'll look at them with more detail later.

The Carni were either Gaulish (Celtic) or Venetic, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni. Evidence continues to suggest a possible Indo-European connection to CTS8862 and CTS11984.
 
KFundora said:
I downloaded Adriano's 23andMe's results and I saw Puiatti's but not your's yet. On the Geno set of results, not all are listed as "?" just for certain markers...I do have "+" for some. I'll look at them with more detail later.

The Carni were either Gaulish (Celtic) or Venetic, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni. Evidence continues to suggest a possible Indo-European connection to CTS8862 and CTS11984.
Click to expand...

Italian historians claim the Carni tribe ALWAYS lived in the central austrian alps.
English historians claim the Carni came from Northern Gascon area of South west france .........maybe Bordeaux
 
That means they are most definitely Celtic. Although we cannot state for certain that Puiatti descends from the Carni there is a possibility. Recent TMRCA calculations of mine continues to support a maybe even Celtic or at least Indo-European origin for CTS8862 and maybe even CTS11984. The current geographic ranges of CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ as well as the dates of our common ancestors (around 3,000 years ago, c. 1000 BCE) seem to coincide with their expansion events from Central Europe... Nevertheless, TMRCA estimates between us in the CTS8862 clade give a common ancestry only some 1,000+ years ago, which may hint at a Germanic connection. It's too early to tell for certain until we get more confirmed CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ individuals and their STR data.
 
KFundora said:
That means they are most definitely Celtic. Although we cannot state for certain that Puiatti descends from the Carni there is a possibility. Recent TMRCA calculations of mine continues to support a maybe even Celtic or at least Indo-European origin for CTS8862 and maybe even CTS11984. The current geographic ranges of CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ as well as the dates of our common ancestors (around 3,000 years ago, c. 1000 BCE) seem to coincide with their expansion events from Central Europe... Nevertheless, TMRCA estimates between us in the CTS8862 clade give a common ancestry only some 1,000+ years ago, which may hint at a Germanic connection. It's too early to tell for certain until we get more confirmed CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ individuals and their STR data.
Click to expand...

agreed

maybe natgeno2 was correct in saying south german area
 
plz delete post
 
Last edited:
Hello isatis,

If by "twin" you mean to delete this post because it is the same as the one started by user rene and the one you most recently commented on, then you are mistaken because this post is different. This post most relates to T-L446 and its subclades, as another user and I have been discussing for a year now. Also, I am not aware if regular members can delete posts. That might be in the power of administrators.

-KFundora
 
interesting about T

T1a M70/Pages46/PF5662 [FONT=arial, sans-serif]found in M70+ men but undetermined if more precisely at [/FONT]M193 or M184 levels

The catalan tests , tested for only Pages46 and PF5662 which gives it the usual M70, ............it seems there might beanother split for T1a
ones with M184+ and M193+ in one group
and
others with M184+ and M193- in another group....................I am this one

Both would have M184+ and M70+
 
I thought you had said earlier that you were M184- as am I. We're both M272+. According to my results, I don't have M193 either.

Also, the 3.5 version of YFull's tree now provides TMRCAs for all the branches of T (and likely all other haplogroups) except for our clades: T-L446 and below.
 
Introducing myself, I have my Y Group T-Z710 (M70, L299) - Maternal is J1d1b1. I'm curious as to any Sephardic connections. My last name is Serra, but is rumored to be originally, on the paternal side, Gabriel. This opened up a whole new interest in origins. Any help with research papers, sources, advice, etc. is sincerely appreciated.
 
I also need help deciphering the CTS, etc. numbers. Research papers and sources are appreciated.
 
KFundora said:
I thought you had said earlier that you were M184- as am I. We're both M272+. According to my results, I don't have M193 either.

Also, the 3.5 version of YFull's tree now provides TMRCAs for all the branches of T (and likely all other haplogroups) except for our clades: T-L446 and below.
Click to expand...

correct, I had mine done at natgeno and send them under C.Morley ..I do have M184+ , but confirmed M193-..........it seems ftdna assume we all have M184+ because we are T , but they do not test it.
so...in ftdna it says neither + or - for M184

have you done 23andme .....if so, get felix programs which converts all your 23andme numbers into positive or negative SNP's.........private email me if you have problems

below are all my SNP ...up to L446...green confirmed positive...red confirmed negative....others untested

 
Richard Serra said:
Introducing myself, I have my Y Group T-Z710 (M70, L299) - Maternal is J1d1b1. I'm curious as to any Sephardic connections. My last name is Serra, but is rumored to be originally, on the paternal side, Gabriel. This opened up a whole new interest in origins. Any help with research papers, sources, advice, etc. is sincerely appreciated.
Click to expand...

hi,

where you from in Italy , only gabriel is in italian riviera ......unless the surname is misspelt
 
Sile, I recently checked on the Y-DNA T composite tree that you linked a while back that was updated 28 Apr 2015. https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

They for some reason updated the information for the dating of T-CTS8862 and 2 of its subclades! They state CTS8862 originated 4,500 years ago! Very recent!!
 
KFundora said:
Sile, I recently checked on the Y-DNA T composite tree that you linked a while back that was updated 28 Apr 2015. https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

They for some reason updated the information for the dating of T-CTS8862 and 2 of its subclades! They state CTS8862 originated 4,500 years ago! Very recent!!
Click to expand...

thanks , so 2485BC or also noted as

2700–2200: EBA III ..................Early bronze-age 3 by archaeologists


You will also note, that we IIRC are both negative in the SNP's for the branches downstream from CTS8862.
We sit at this spot

I received a note from T project manager Gareth.

I have done a bit more restructuring and have rearranged the groups so that all the most likely CTS8862 clusters are next to each other. Unfortunately, of all the names you mentioned, only Kevin Fundora has a confirmed CTS8862+ result. The genetic distance widens at 37 markers (matches at 12 markers aren't always an indicator of a close relationship). I will try to contact some of the others over the weekend.

Until we get more CTS8862+ results there isn't much for you to do except wait


I also discussed the DYS390=22 complex
this site below has tested only 67markers or more markers and all , are European ( or USA ) except 1 "Anatolian turk "

http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/600/

I also scanned all the ftdna T project for this #22 and again found all european except 1 in Anatolia .
All are North European , except the Italian ones.

I suspect this number 22 was German in origin and settled in britain , it also went to Italy. The strange thing is , you are the only one from Iberia with this DYS390=22 that I have found.


The site I linked using 67 markers ............still gives me links with the italian with surname Da Lessio ( ftdna tested who will not join the project ) and a new one kit# 194479 German with name Daniel Hof circa 1610- 1663
 
Yes 2485 BCE is consistent with Early Bronze Age Europe especially the Corded Ware culture of Central Europe, for which I am researching to see a link.

Of all the subclades of CTS8862 I could not find any positive SNPs in my raw data that placed me more downstream so we stay at this node. Before we had mentioned the interesting nature of the DYS390=22 for the individuals in our clade and I see its significance and I agree, it must have appeared in Germany or somewhere in Central Europe in association with the appearance of the CTS8862 SNP and then spread outward especially to the British Isles and Italy where our clade seems most prevalent. I may be the only Iberian with DYS390=22 so far. YFull has a Spaniard and Puerto Rican as being CTS8862 equivalent but may belong to the downstream T1a2b1a3 and T1a2b1a4 subclades marked in the composite tree as "Iberians" and "Hispanics" and we do not have their SNPs available.
 
On SMGF, 5 of my top matches for the maximum SNPs I could compare on the site had DYS390=22:
  • Martins (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil)
  • Lippi (Arezzo, Italy)
  • Dell Plain (NY, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Deakin (Warwickshire, England)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Miller [Mueller] (Hesse, Germany)[/FONT]
    [/LIST]

    [FONT=tahoma]On Ysearch:[/FONT]
    [LIST]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Frush (MD, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Frush [Froschauer] (Germany)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Russo (Naples, Italy)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Carvalho [Pinto] (São Paulo, Brazil)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Madrigal (Madrid, Spain)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Atwell (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Owens (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Sizemore (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Stockdell (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]McKee (SC, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Mitchell (NC, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Hill (GA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Powell (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Fakes (England?)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Milligan (NC, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Rodríguez (Puerto Rico)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Riols (Riols, France)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Rossi (Alvignano, Italy)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Santagata (Molise, Italy)[/FONT]
    [/LIST]
    [FONT=tahoma]as well as the other confirmed CTS8862+ and several individuals with the same surnames as above

    I will analyze the Hispanic and Brazilian individuals in terms of TMRCA to see any connections.
    [/FONT]
 
KFundora said:
On SMGF, 5 of my top matches for the maximum SNPs I could compare on the site had DYS390=22:
  • Martins (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil)
  • Lippi (Arezzo, Italy)
  • Dell Plain (NY, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Deakin (Warwickshire, England)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Miller [Mueller] (Hesse, Germany)[/FONT]
    [/LIST]

    [FONT=tahoma]On Ysearch:[/FONT]
    [LIST]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Frush (MD, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Frush [Froschauer] (Germany)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Russo (Naples, Italy)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Carvalho [Pinto] (São Paulo, Brazil)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Madrigal (Madrid, Spain)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Atwell (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Owens (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Sizemore (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Stockdell (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]McKee (SC, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Mitchell (NC, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Hill (GA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Powell (VA, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Fakes (England?)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Milligan (NC, USA)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Rodríguez (Puerto Rico)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Riols (Riols, France)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Rossi (Alvignano, Italy)[/FONT]
    [*][FONT=tahoma]Santagata (Molise, Italy)[/FONT]
    [/LIST]
    [FONT=tahoma]as well as the other confirmed CTS8862+ and several individuals with the same surnames as above

    I will analyze the Hispanic and Brazilian individuals in terms of TMRCA to see any connections.
    [/FONT][/QUOTE]

    Are all these on ysearch CTS8862+ confirmed?

    DaLessio is also confirmed as CTS8862+ in Ftdna ............the name is Da Lessio ( or Lessio as Da is meaning of from ) ..........Americanisation always joins these ( poor fellows ) into one surname ...............I explained in previous posts this dalessio who migrated to USA in previous posts

    anyway, this Lessio is a relative of mine ......original birth document below:
    States: Department of Tagliamento province of Treviso, Canton of Treviso, community of Treviso, District of Lancenigo on the 7th of February 1806 , etce etc..Giovanni Lessio 31 years old had a daughter he named Maria ..............mothe rof daughter is Catterina Vettori
    [URL="http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/marialessio_zps7f6b8be1.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/marialessio_zps7f6b8be1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
    I might be wrong if this dalessio was originally spelled D'Alessio ..........then I have no link



    And below, Natgeno is the only people that have predicted my ydna and mtdna

    [URL="http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/natgenonew_zps3ff4a8c9.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/natgenonew_zps3ff4a8c9.jpg[/IMG][/URL]



    BTW, I was given another who I am related to , from Italy, Marche region from town called genga

    Piangerelli from Genga, Italy kit# 8JJY7
    Have you anything on this person?

    I do see on ysearch, he is the only person which matches my DYS464 at 11-11-11-11 ................but from what I read DYS464 is usually part of an option to be excluded in search sites
Click to expand...
 
None of those were CTS8862+ then again many individuals don't update their Y-DNA info even when SNPs and branches are revised. So as of now, those were just DYS390=22 but we are not sure if they are part of our clade.

Are all these new individuals you're finding that you are related to CTS8862+??

Do you have a "story" on Nat Geno?? Because I do and I am not sure if I see yours. The two users closest to me are claremontbirdman (CTS11984+, CTS8862-) and robazza (CTS11984+, CTS8862?) but Nat Geno grouped us with other individuals with stories that are of subclades of T1a1 branches for some odd reason.
 
KFundora said:
None of those were CTS8862+ then again many individuals don't update their Y-DNA info even when SNPs and branches are revised. So as of now, those were just DYS390=22 but we are not sure if they are part of our clade.

Are all these new individuals you're finding that you are related to CTS8862+??

Do you have a "story" on Nat Geno?? Because I do and I am not sure if I see yours. The two users closest to me are claremontbirdman (CTS11984+, CTS8862-) and robazza (CTS11984+, CTS8862?) but Nat Geno grouped us with other individuals with stories that are of subclades of T1a1 branches for some odd reason.
Click to expand...


My son put the story on Nat geno for me using our sopranomme of Robazza ............sopranomme is a name used when many families in a town had the same surname , so we have very very old birth and marriage certificates for my family line that has after my surname it has " detto Robazza" ( detto means some say ) . This system is done in a very high percentage in North-East Italy ( unsure about other parts of Italy )
Robazza for my part was a line of my family line was attached via a maternal part of my paternal side in the 18th century...................the oldest I found for Robazza surname proper is that they where merchants in Venice in 1345.


I am unsure if the 2 new individuals , Hof and Piengerelli have CTS8862 ..............but both are zero GD from me, but so is your Martin, Lippi and Miller ( mueller )...BTW, Lippi comes from Brescia originally ( east Lombard )
 
Oh I see, so you were Robazza all along... we are the only CTS8862+ in Nat Geno that have a story.

Hof and Piengerelli are at 0 GD for how many markers? 67?

I did the comparisons to other Iberians who were DYS390=22 and possibly CTS8862+ and I noticed that the Spaniard-Hispanics were most distant from me, followed by Portuguese-Brazilians, and then an Azorean with a Galician surname. The TMRCAs are of course relative and can change depending on the reference but this seems to suggest a Galician origin for my paternal line.

SMGF matches (DYS390=22, all)
MARTINS #1 (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil) – 24/26, 434 years (ca. 1561)
MARTINS #2 (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil) – 23/26, 651 years (ca. 1344)

Ysearch matches (DYS390=22, all)
MADRIGAL (Madrid, Spain) – 25/37, 990 years (ca. 1005)
RODRÍGUEZ (Puerto Rico) – 24/37, 1,080 years (ca. 915)
CARVALHO (PINTO São Paulo, Brazil) – 29/37, 690 years (ca. 1305)

FTDNA matches (DYS390=22[?], all)
LEMAS (Azores, Portugal) – 33/37, 360 years (ca. 1635)

I will look into the other individuals with which we match and see how distantly we are all related. This way, I can attempt to associate geographically the possible migratory paths of our branch and when it occurred. Because TMRCA for STRs is different than for SNPs.
 
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