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Thread: Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

  1. #501
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    It seems this person is not a sizemore as the sizemore family are mostly hap. Q
    Ftdna test for this person in Y111 found 109 STR matches with the Powell T1a2 family, the assumptions is that the sizemore T1a2 in yfull was adopted from a Powell family in 1829

    ............................
    .
    I traced this line to Thomas Powell 1478-1525 in Brecon Wales.
    His father had a welsh surname....William Pwyll 1453 who married Catherine John.
    There is a french person ( from Lorraine ) as well as many others who have family trees with this person...
    .
    .
    In ftdna all the Powell family and the one sizemore are in their own group
    it is a dead group as it is negative for CTS8862 ......so until they find more non-family members, this group will remain as is
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  2. #502
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
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    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Another T1a2 match ( distant )

    .
    John McKee 1801 North carolina married, Ann Baahne
    his father was
    Jack Mckee born Virginia
    his father
    Robert Brown McKee 1692 - 1774 from Drumbo Ireland
    died 11/6/1774 Virginia,

    hi father
    Alexander Williams MacKey 1668 born Strathnaver Scotland
    died 1740 Ireland
    married Miriam Brown

  3. #503
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    another

    T1a2-CTS8862
    from shkoder , between albania and montenegro ( for 300 years ) ..........now lives in Kosovo

    I think he is the recent kosovo noted person

  4. #504
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    a yfull find for a match for me
    .
    YF06979 .......Henry Sizemore b. 1810 and d.1877
    must be the father of Henry William Sizemore
    Could you please clarify what kind of “match” you are referring to?

    At your Leisure, No pressure


    Technically: Henry with id:YF06979 is haplo cts54, so all clades below that are a match by default.

    - or, Does it means that Henry is presumed to be at least Z19945?

    - If not, what’s the meaning of a “Match” detached by 2-3 steps away from the Final clade?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS54*/

  5. #505
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Could you please clarify what kind of “match” you are referring to?

    At your Leisure, No pressure


    Technically: Henry with id:YF06979 is haplo cts54, so all clades below that are a match by default.

    - or, Does it means that Henry is presumed to be at least Z19945?

    - If not, what’s the meaning of a “Match” detached by 2-3 steps away from the Final clade?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS54*/
    he is a match to me in yfull.......but his CTS54 has a * behind it in yfull, indicating a dead line or unfinished line..........as I said , he seems to be not a sizemore , but a powell
    search net for powell sizemore DNA ........
    I do report if they match or do not match me in being close to our hapo line

  6. #506
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    Hey guys, do you have any idea why someone would get the result of belonging to T haplogroup without any subclade info from 23andme?

  7. #507
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caucasus View Post
    Hey guys, do you have any idea why someone would get the result of belonging to T haplogroup without any subclade info from 23andme?
    It would be very interesting to know where he comes from.

  8. #508
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    Salento, he has ancestors from Turkey and northwest Iran if that helps.

  9. #509
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caucasus View Post
    Salento, he has ancestors from Turkey and northwest Iran if that helps.
    Unless something has changed, I am only aware of one Man with a basic Y T (T-M184) still alive, and he’s from Armenia.


  10. #510
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    My applologies, I made a mistake. It is his mtdna Haplogroup T that does not have a sub-clade. He has no Armenian ancestors and does not have any matches from Armenia. He is an Iranian Azeri.
    Last edited by Caucasus; 26-02-19 at 19:30.

  11. #511
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @salento

    Has there been a change to the T tree in ftdna
    I was told that T1a3 became T1a2 ...and the T1a2 merged with T1a1

    someone said I am now
    T1a1b1a1a1b2 - Z19945*

    I am also positive CTS6071 like CL23 ( he is also T1a1 branch now )


    can you check ?

  12. #512
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    @salento
    Has there been a change to the T tree in ftdna
    I was told that T1a3 became T1a2 ...and the T1a2 merged with T1a1
    someone said I am now
    T1a1b1a1a1b2 - Z19945*
    I am also positive CTS6071 like CL23 ( he is also T1a1 branch now )
    can you check ?
    We both match CL23 as positive at CTS6071.

    At FT they were doing something to the Tree this morning.

    At Isogg CTS8862 it is still under T1a2 (Strangely, I could swear T1a1, became T1a2 after refreshing the page, unless ...)






    10 minutes later. Notice that L446 shifted from Gold to Green.




    Part of the Tree, see if you can figure out if they merged.


  13. #513
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    We both match CL23 as positive at CTS6071.
    At FT they were doing something to the Tree this morning.
    At Isogg CTS8862 it is still under T1a2 (Strangely, I could swear T1a1, became T1a2 after refreshing the page, unless ...)


    10 minutes later. Notice that L446 shifted from Gold to Green.



    Part of the Tree, see if you can figure out if they merged.

    CL23 was also changed to T1a1 in this link of ancient T-M184 samples ............see the red one
    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#4/41.77/28.96
    .
    BTW, purple ones seem origins of marker of the ones that do not belong to T1a1, T1a2 or T1a3

  14. #514
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    just check in yfull ...they have no amended the tree yet..............but have given me a new SNP branching out from Z19945
    .
    Haplogroup SNP
    − YF07608 BY32027 / Y70078
    − T-Z19945 Z19945
    .
    .
    Have to wait and see if the BY32027 is ok......this is due to Yfull going from HG19 to HG38 system

  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    CL23 was also changed to T1a1 in this link of ancient T-M184 samples ............see the red one
    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#4/41.77/28.96
    .
    BTW, purple ones seem origins of marker of the ones that do not belong to T1a1, T1a2 or T1a3
    Unless they use a different nomenclature standard. Maybe?


    ... Collegno 1350 yBP ( Early Medieval ) Longobard Period



    CL23 ( 1310 -1380 yBP )
    Phase: I
    Y-DNA: T1a1b1a1-CTS6071
    mtDNA: H
    Strontium Sr: Non-local
    Coverage: 2,952
    Other IDs: COL001

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4

    doi https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-01 ...

  16. #516
    Regular Member Huracan's Avatar
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    I did a deep dive into this paper and its supplementary material to get a better understanding.

    CL23 (T-CTS6071 aka CTS933) and SZ36 (T-PF5620) were the only two Y-DNA T individuals found at the two Lombard burial sites dated to the mid 6th century CE -- CL23 from Collegno, Italy and SZ36 from Szólád, Hungary (Pannonia). Isotope ratio analyses showed they both were not local to the areas where they were buried. They were part of a genetically-distinct group of individuals that had mostly or entirely Southern European (SE) ancestry that was different than the Northern European (NE) Lombards that shared the cemetery. Their burial practices (lack of grave goods and plots being grouped together away from the Lombards) and nutritional data suggest they were of lower social status and did not really mix with the others.

    At the Szólád site, all individuals seemed to be non-local, which is consistent with the highly mobile history of the Lombards and their launching point from this area to invade Italy in 568 CE.
    "In summary, the small Longobard period cemetery from Szólád is the necropolis of a small, wealthy, highly mobile and population from the middle of the sixth century. In grave construction and grave goods at least two groups can be distinguished, which suggest the integration of different traditions. The small population settled for only one generation in Pannonia at the shore of Lake Balaton and therefore appears to have been very mobile..." (Supplemental Information).
    The paper suggested that these SE individuals (including SZ36) could've migrated with the Lombards from elsewhere, but did not originate from the same area (different isotope ratio patterns). Supplemental info stated that the SE people could have still been from the area around Lake Balaton, but then went on to say that they were not local and migrated to the area with the Lombards (a little confusing). This could mean that these SE peoples could have been serfs, slaves, or non-Germanic soldiers in their mixed ranks (very difficult to know at this point ... or to even guess).

    The Collegno site showed greater evidence of multigenerational family burials, hinting at the settlement and dominance of the Lombards in this region. The majority of those buried here were local, even the SE peoples who were suggested to be actual residents due to their genomic closeness to modern populations in the area. Only two SE individuals were non-local, one of them being CL23 (our main interest) who was from phase I: 570/590 to 630/640 CE and had high (>70%) Tuscan and Iberian (TSI+IBS) ancestry, one of a few in the cemetery to have this background. No inferences were made regarding his origin but what we can conclude was that he was of lower status, high Southern European ancestry, and not local to the area around Collegno.

    The best I could do to get a better understanding of CL23 was looking at the PCA plots comparing ancestry to reference samples provided in the Supplemental Information. This was difficult to do and I realize this can lead to misleading conclusions.

    • Supp Figure 23: CL23 clusters among samples of the overlap area between Switzerland and Italy while SZ36 clusters with Italian samples. Additionally, CL23 is closest to HUs2 and SZ36 HUs 3, both Bronze Age Hungarian samples.
    • Supp Figure 25: CL23 clustered more with Bergamo, Tuscan, and Bulgarian with some proximity to Iberian while SZ36 was strongly Tuscan with close proximity to Albanian.

    Supplementary Data 4 calculated the most likely modern population assigned to each ancient sample test using PAA. CL23 was assigned Portugal (probability 0.13) and Bulgaria (0.31) while SZ36 was assigned France (0.45) or Tuscany (0.29). Just as a reinforcement to what the paper stated, the local SE people buried at Collegno (CL25, 30, 31, 38, and 121) match Italy the most and with high probability (0.66-0.97), supporting their actual local origin.

    This is what I could get from it. Feel free to review the sources and get a handle on the info (it is a lot).

    Sources:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4.pdf
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...of-migrations/
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a8532796.html

  17. #517
    Regular Member Huracan's Avatar
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    Just realized this was discussed in the other T thread as well, interesting that other genetic comparisons and analyses showed him as more like a North Italian Bell Beaker.

  18. #518
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    The hierarchy in letters of the SNPs maybe is changing because NEW Z19859 is above L131.

    M70 - T1a
    —L162 - T1a1
    -—Z19859 - T..???
    -——L131 - was/is T1a2???
    ———L1255 -was/is T1a3???

    Used to be:
    M70 - T1a
    —L162 - T1a1
    -—L131 - T1a2
    ——L1255 T1a3

  19. #519
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huracan View Post
    Just realized this was discussed in the other T thread as well, interesting that other genetic comparisons and analyses showed him as more like a North Italian Bell Beaker.
    yes, CL23 is the closest sample from the lombard paper that plots next to the North-Italian bell Beaker sample

  20. #520
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The hierarchy in letters of the SNPs maybe is changing because NEW Z19859 is above L131.

    M70 - T1a
    —L162 - T1a1
    -—Z19859 - T..???
    -——L131 - was/is T1a2???
    ———L1255 -was/is T1a3???
    from T project admin...............Z19859 sits right in the middle of DYZ19 region which is harder to sequence. In Yfull one has a mixture of C and G reads.
    haplogroup T2 ( Bhutan and armenia ) and T1a3 ( oldest origin in south Kazakhstan ) are clean of the SNP , while T1a1 and T1a2 have mixed reads for this.
    So, Z19859 could be equal to M70 ..........Z19859 is over 16k years ago

    .
    meaning that T2-PH110 and T1a3 are completly split from T1a1 and T1a2 as they do have SNP Z19859 .................maybe this connection is why it looks like they will merge T1a2 into T1a1

  21. #521
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    T-CTS6071 is about 7000 ybp old, but the CL23-Man is 1310 -1380 ybp old.

    Add more clades to go to T-CTS8862 that is about 3700 ybp old.

    There’s a gap of about 3300 years between the 2 Clades.

  22. #522
    Regular Member Huracan's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    T-CTS6071 is about 7000 ybp old, but the CL23-Man is 1310 -1380 ybp old.

    Add more clades to go to T-CTS8862 that is about 3700 ybp old.

    There’s a gap of about 3300 years between the 2 Clades.
    Yes so this is significant as it actually confirms that L446 and CTS933 were present in Europe at this time and based on CL23's matching to Bell Beaker people, the clades were involved in the Neolithic spread from the Near East as well.

    CTS933/CTS6071 formed 7,700 ybp (5750 BCE) | TMRCA 6,700 ybp (4750 BCE), which is within the range of expansion of Neolithic cultures into Europe. Its possible presence among the Bell Beaker means it was involved in this movement of peoples and cultural elements from Atlantic Europe eastward into the rest of Europe. Descendants of those that arrived in Italy (especially the Po Valley) would've included CL23? becoming the substrate of the "Roman" population that remained there through the Lombard invasion.

    Based on online searches, not sure if this means CTS933 was involved in the Corded Ware too (which they say is the predecessor of Bell Beaker) in which case stems from the Yamna and ultimately supporting a Caucasus origin in a way (or it was picked up in SE Europe from the previous Neolithic substrate). Want to know what you all think about this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/neoli...rope_map.shtml

  23. #523
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    my closest ancient matches in regards to samples
    distance%: 0.16
    .
    Germany_Medieval 21.41
    Balkans_ChL 10.11
    LBK_N 9.87
    Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul 9.63
    Vinca_MN 7.14
    Baltic_BA 5.68
    Sweden_Viking_Age 5.28
    Gonur1_BA 4.45
    Sintashta_MLBA 4.15
    Tisza_LN 4.07
    LBK_N_Austria 3.83
    Anatolia_MLBA_low_res 3.71
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno 3.42
    Cimmerian_Moldova 3.29
    Scythian_Moldova 3.06
    Tepe_Hissar_ChL 0.91

    ................................
    further breakdown using central european only samples from above
    Here is a model that seemed OK with Lombards, Medieval Germans, and Scythians:
    distance%: 0.65
    .
    Scythian_Hungary_DA198 36.65
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL63 21.28
    Germany_Medieval_STR_486 14.08
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL36 13.64
    Scythian_Moldova_scy197 8.53
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23 3.33
    Scythian_Moldova_scy300 2.49

  24. #524
    Regular Member Huracan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    my closest ancient matches in regards to samples
    distance%: 0.16
    .
    Germany_Medieval 21.41
    Balkans_ChL 10.11
    LBK_N 9.87
    Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul 9.63
    Vinca_MN 7.14
    Baltic_BA 5.68
    Sweden_Viking_Age 5.28
    Gonur1_BA 4.45
    Sintashta_MLBA 4.15
    Tisza_LN 4.07
    LBK_N_Austria 3.83
    Anatolia_MLBA_low_res 3.71
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno 3.42
    Cimmerian_Moldova 3.29
    Scythian_Moldova 3.06
    Tepe_Hissar_ChL 0.91

    ................................
    further breakdown using central european only samples from above
    Here is a model that seemed OK with Lombards, Medieval Germans, and Scythians:
    distance%: 0.65
    .
    Scythian_Hungary_DA198 36.65
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL63 21.28
    Germany_Medieval_STR_486 14.08
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL36 13.64
    Scythian_Moldova_scy197 8.53
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23 3.33
    Scythian_Moldova_scy300 2.49
    How did you do this? What calculator or site did you use?

  25. #525
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huracan View Post
    How did you do this? What calculator or site did you use?
    Its a 2 step process ...........I have to recheck who it was and what I paid...........then the one above was done for free ...............i have to get back to you

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