Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

[Sile]

Originally Posted by Sile
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...



I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

• Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
• Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
• Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
• Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
• Germany (Surname: Rauch)
• Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
• Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
• Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
• Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
• Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
• Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
• Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
• Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
• Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
• Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
• Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
• Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
• Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
• Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
• Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
• Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)

Predicted L131+:

• Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
• Sicily, Italy (?)
• Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
• Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
• Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
• Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
• Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
• County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
• Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
• Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)

Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):

• KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
• VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
• VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
• Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
• Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
• Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
• FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
• Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
• NC, USA (Surname: Knox)

I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

I have a ancestor from 1745 from Morfumo Veneto with the surname Forner ..............which is similar

of the list you gave
Rapalje is not his true name, Guerra was originally Goera ( same meaning of war), Corson, ancestors are from Sondrio Lombardia and name originates from Corse which means corsican, Blarer is from the 12th century, Hohenfeld is a Prussian,

none of the L131 list are L446

Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
Kile not related to me.
Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
Knox could have some ties.

If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/all-snp-maps/
select SNP above and see the L446 in the world....info is gathered from all testing sites..BUT only 67 markers and above ( seems they want to ensure accuracy)

[Huracan]

Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
Kile not related to me.
Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
Knox could have some ties.

If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/all-snp-maps/
select SNP above and see the L446 in the world....info is gathered from all testing sites..BUT only 67 markers and above ( seems they want to ensure accuracy)

How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them)

And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded.

I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?

[Sile]

How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them)

And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded.

I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?

I wrote to them. In ftdna there are for each individual, an email icon, a note icon and 2 others

Chris will reply , earlier than gareth....sometimes you need to email other contact instead of Gareth....I think other guy is Finnish

yes I presume the danube is one avenue, there are also T in estonia, so up the dniepr river and other could be a view. I believe T was part of the hunter gatherers with some farming of late. Some believe T was hunter and herders.

Since you are positive L446 , you will be negative P322 and P328 ...................nat geo2 does not give ftdna any negative markers

[Huracan]

But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (L446) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.

I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.

[Huracan]

Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)

[Sile]

But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (L446) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.

I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.

Celts came down into the alps from central germany, Gauls came from swiss and french areas ( from the west ). Raetians are stated as speaking a branch of west-semetic language , akkadian ( assyrian ).......!?


Natgeno2 states basal origins of L131 as Caucasus and south germany.............they state a migrational link ( path)

eupedia states
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

I have no issue with your theories............

[Sile]

Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)

I can only imagine L446 to have always appeared as 1 part of the L131 branch but was never "discovered"...........Its like the new Y tests being done.....new SNPs are being found in certain Haplotypes that have always been there.

[Samaniego]

I like to share informs
My ancestors are both from de Baque Country

[Huracan]

@Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.

[Sile]

@Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.

you stated you have T-CTS11984 which is downstream from L446 ( Its one of the 5 sub-branches of L446 ). Your branch is Tyrolese/Trentino/Grison group..........I do not know why you are thinking its Spanish. You ancestors most likely left for the new world in the mid 18th Century.

[Sile]

@fundora

My natgen 2 marker is CTS8862 , which is another step lower in the branch than your CTS11984

[Sile]

After some discussion with project managers,
due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar).
But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.

I do not know what to make of this

[Huracan]

Wait, how did you know it was one of the 5-sub-branches? Where did you find this information? I would greatly appreciate this, Sile.

I didn't think it was Spanish. All I can guess at right now was that the parents of my earliest known paternal ancestor were Spanish, as most Cubans are. I have yet to pinpoint my exact origins. Thanks for your input! :)

[Huracan]

Oh, did you recently test with Nat Geno? I can't remember if you said in a past post, it's been about a month or more since I have been active on Eupedia.

And this is interesting information!!!

[Huracan]

After some discussion with project managers,
due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar).
But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.

I do not know what to make of this

I too am only positive for M272.

[Huracan]

@fundora

My natgen 2 marker is CTS8862 , which is another step lower in the branch than your CTS11984

Oh turns out I am also CTS8862+, I would greatly appreciate the information and source regarding these sub-branches! I am getting excited!

[Huracan]

you stated you have T-CTS11984 which is downstream from L446 ( Its one of the 5 sub-branches of L446 ). Your branch is Tyrolese/Trentino/Grison group..........I do not know why you are thinking its Spanish. You ancestors most likely left for the new world in the mid 18th Century.

Y-DNA T Tree 2014.jpg
Sile, I recently found the 5 sub-branches you were talking about. This is interesting stuff! Currently on ysearch trying to investigate the genetic distance between me and other old T1b (L131+) members from FTDNA.

[Sile]

Y-DNA T Tree 2014.jpg
Sile, I recently found the 5 sub-branches you were talking about. This is interesting stuff! Currently on ysearch trying to investigate the genetic distance between me and other old T1b (L131+) members from FTDNA.

As I mentioned in other T thread ...............ftdna are wrong in SNP - Pages00113 and L25

Pager00113 is in the L group
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2...hrY%3Adatabase

and L25 is in the J group

Pages00011 is correct in that it is T group .................but since you are CTS8862 , you will be negative for Pages00011 , UNLESS ftdna tree in that area is in error

[Huracan]

And @Sile, interesting news! Fundora instead may come from (di) Fondora, a surname that seems to emanate from Lucca in Tuscany and may have prior connections in Emilia-Romagna (I think Sorbano [now Sarsina or part of it] but I have yet to interpret the translations in full yet). The Fondoras were bankers, as was the prime business of Lucca, and had connections with nearby Genoa (Lucca is very close to Genoa/Liguria). They would have spread to Genoa or simply migrated in association with them to the Canary Islands in the 15th and 16th centuries and from there to Cuba. This makes my CTS8862 marker more in line with an Alpine origin of Northern Italy. Still working out everything and getting in touch with more Fundoras but this seems to be a promising theory regarding my ancestry. :)

[Sile]

And @Sile, interesting news! Fundora instead may come from (di) Fondora, a surname that seems to emanate from Lucca in Tuscany and may have prior connections in Emilia-Romagna (I think Sorbano [now Sarsina or part of it] but I have yet to interpret the translations in full yet). The Fondoras were bankers, as was the prime business of Lucca, and had connections with nearby Genoa (Lucca is very close to Genoa/Liguria). They would have spread to Genoa or simply migrated in association with them to the Canary Islands in the 15th and 16th centuries and from there to Cuba. This makes my CTS8862 marker more in line with an Alpine origin of Northern Italy. Still working out everything and getting in touch with more Fundoras but this seems to be a promising theory regarding my ancestry. :)

I know Lucca as I have an aunt from my maternal side living there.

The genoese where the merchant bankers of the Crown of Spain during the renaissance. You should check spanish archives for genoese bankers in employment for Spain



only cts8862 in crimson colour which are also L446............the pink is only L446


In my opinion CTS8862 will be moved to a minor SNP marker and we will get L1322 or Pages00011 once its available for testing . These will be the only 2 lines coming out from L446+

[FrankN]

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

• Germany (Surname: Rauch)

The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:

1. Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.
2. from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.
3. possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc.

Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:

9ddb27ce1a570b573eb47a5bd66e2f9c_de.jpg
Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).

Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.

[Sile]

The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:

1. Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.
2. from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.
3. possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc.

Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:

9ddb27ce1a570b573eb47a5bd66e2f9c_de.jpg
Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).

Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.

roca, rocca = tower ............as in a rook in chess
Rocca translated into English = fortress, rock, stronghold

rocce = rocks in Italian............sassi = stones

thanks for the link...Rauch a person who has minor links with me.........similar to the northern German named Kile

What does the map state?

I do have some genetic links with a town called Ravenstein .....IIRC the person who told me says its in Baden-Baden

[Huracan]

Sile, a recent discussion with a man, whose wife's four-times great grandmother was named Flora Fundora Y Abad, revealed that she was born in the Canary Islands and her family was from there and have been there for as long as anyone can remember but had originated in Spain. The wife's grandmother, Flora's granddaughter, said after asking around in Spain that Fundora means something along the lines of founder or foundry but do not know where exactly in Spain it comes from.

So now my question is, how would L446, let alone CTS11984 and CTS8862. would have made it into Spain?

[Sile]

Sile, a recent discussion with a man, whose wife's four-times great grandmother was named Flora Fundora Y Abad, revealed that she was born in the Canary Islands and her family was from there and have been there for as long as anyone can remember but had originated in Spain. The wife's grandmother, Flora's granddaughter, said after asking around in Spain that Fundora means something along the lines of founder or foundry but do not know where exactly in Spain it comes from.

So now my question is, how would L446, let alone CTS11984 and CTS8862. would have made it into Spain?

I do not know about Spain as i cannot find any names similar to yours there, but in Italy

Antica famiglia lucchese, detta nel secolo XIII de' Bujoli, e chiamata poi dei Fondora dai luoghi di loro proprietà. Ebbe numerosi Anziani nella Repubblica dal secolo XIV al XVIII, e nel secolo XV alcuni maestri della zecca di Lucca. Il più noto della famiglia è Lazzaro de Fondora, dovizioso mercante, che fece erigere nel 1309 la chiesa di S. Maria e S. Francesco nei borghi della città, donandola ai Frati .... continua

From Lucca italy above, year from 1309..............Zecca = mint , where money is made

or

Le memorie di questa famiglia ricordano come capo stipite delle due linee, milanese, cioè, e veneto-dalmata, un Tommaso de Fondra che da Sigismondo imperatore con diploma datato a Milano, fu nel 1413 creato barone dell'impero. Si stabilì in Venezia sul principio del secolo XVI, ove un Lorenzo fu dal doge Pasquale Cicogna fatto conte palatino. Il primo di questa casa che si fermasse in Sebenico fu un Ferdinando cancelliere nel .... continua

Origin Milanese with links with Veneto and Dalmatia .

If you think they are bankers, check Spain archives

[FrankN]

What does the map state?

I do have some genetic links with a town called Ravenstein .....IIRC the person who told me says its in Baden-Baden

The map displays the relative frequency of the name among all telephone book entries. Geographical base unit is the county (German: Landkreis). The frequencies here are given as x per million (Rauch is a relatively rare name), the colouring goes from 10-155 occurrences per million (light orange) to more than 620 occurrences per million (dark red).

Ravenstein is in Baden-Würtemberg, approx. 90 km NNE of Stuttgart and 70 km SSW of Wurzburg. On the Rauch name frequency map, you will note a dark red county in south-central Germany (Main-Spessart County), surrounded by a few darker orange counties. If you go to the one directly south, and a bit beyond its SW corner, that's where Ravenstein is located.