Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

found this line from Lombardy Italy...........they sent a family line to the greek islands held by Italy after the 1911-1912 Turco-italian war.
Do you see any in regards to matches
FONDRA

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alphabetical order

1.o Alfonso2.
o Eugénia & Mario Pierre Isidore SUMMA 1910-19733.
o Giovanna4.
o
Innocenzo & Teresa VENINI
o
Ferdinando ca 1826-1888 & ? ?
o
Alfredo 1866-1895
oGiovanni1829-1908 & Luisa Ou Luigia BORETTI 1845-1923
o
Enrico 1864-
o
Joachim (Giovacchino) 1865-1926 & Argyro CARIDHIA
o
Giovanni1894-1894
o
Luisa 1895-1921
o
Elfrida Anna 1896- &1922 Antonio PREDONZAN ...
o
Elena Anna Cristina 1897-1897
o
Arturo 1898-1971 &1924 Giovanna PREDONZAN
o
Elvira Luisa
oJoachim (Giovacchino) 1865-1926 &1918 Maria PIROLOVOS
o
Ettore1903-1924
o
Eugenia1905- &1925 Guy FIOROVICH
o
Giovanni1908- &1935 Maria FRAGIACOMO
o
Adolfo 1867-1924 &1893 Teresa FILINESI 1872- 5.
o
Teresa


in cuba
this is the oldest line 1847

genovapete19691FUNDORA
1847 - 1847San Antonio de Los BanosCuba

o Rosario
owner of line is Peter Genova .....city is San Antonio de Los Banos

red print is Fundora or Fondra person

Unfortunately no I do not see any familiar people or anyone possibly related to me in that Fondra family. Remember, my earliest ancestor that we know was born around 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

I contacted Peter not too long ago and his Fundora ancestor is his great-great-great grandmother named Rosario Fundora. Her son, his great-great-grandfather, was born in San Antonio de los Baños in 1847. Comparing temporal data, we may be distantly related. The earliest account of Fundora in Cuba comes from 1773, when Antonio Fundora (b. 1759) enlisted in the Cuban-Spanish Army. He fought against the British in the Anglo-Spanish War in Louisiana and Florida, part of the American Revolutionary War. I also recently found a Santiago Jose Fundora y Cabrera baptized in Bejucal, La Habana from 1770-1780 (his record was found in a general church record entry).

These two sites provide information regarding Fundora:
http://www.xn--apellidosespaa-2nb.com/apellido/fundora.html -> this one says that Fundora has a Spanish heraldic shield and is common in the Canary Islands
http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-fundora-leon.html -> this one says that there are between 337-358 people in Barcelona Province with the surname Fundora Leon.
 
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Fondera is a surname that appears in Pyrenees-Orientales, France since the late 1500s and early 1600s. Fundera, its variant, also appears in the same areas. Fondora, another variant, if I remember correctly also goes back to the same time period and area (as per World Vital Records). Most of this information I got from FamilySearch.org. It also appears in records from Gerona since the mid-1600s and into the 1700s. In Barcelona province, it continues to the modern-day.

Thus, a Catalan-French origin seems to be the best option for the origin for Fundora, especially since Fundora is also found in a lot of Latin American countries (i.e. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama, Ecuador, Chile, and Brazil), being distributed by Catalan and Spaniard settlers in the New World.
 
Unfortunately no I do not see any familiar people or anyone possibly related to me in that Fondra family. Remember, my earliest ancestor that we know was born around 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

I contacted Peter not too long ago and his Fundora ancestor is his great-great-great grandmother named Rosario Fundora. Her son, his great-great-grandfather, was born in San Antonio de los Baños in 1847. Comparing temporal data, we may be distantly related. The earliest account of Fundora in Cuba comes from 1773, when Antonio Fundora (b. 1759) enlisted in the Cuban-Spanish Army. He fought against the British in the Anglo-Spanish War in Louisiana and Florida, part of the American Revolutionary War. I also recently found a Santiago Jose Fundora y Cabrera baptized in Bejucal, La Habana from 1770-1780 (his record was found in a general church record entry).

These two sites provide information regarding Fundora:
http://www.xn--apellidosespaa-2nb.com/apellido/fundora.html -> this one says that Fundora has a Spanish heraldic shield and is common in the Canary Islands
http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-fundora-leon.html -> this one says that there are between 337-358 people in Barcelona Province with the surname Fundora Leon.

thanks

The year 1759 for Antonio makes sense in that the story is no catalan or basque went to the new world via spanish ships due to some type of legality/rules. this was changed in ~1720

whats your plan?

I have registry records from 1689 to now for me..........plus another document from Rovereto from 1610 .............I just need to trace this Gaspar guy from 1545 , again in Val di Cembra Trentino Italy...............we might only be linked via a paternal marriage of sisters long long time ago...or ...?
 
Also @Sile, I wish to refresh myself on the possible origins for L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862. I remember you saying and reading elsewhere that M272 (our line) migrated north of the Caspian and it was in the northern Caucasus (Pontic-Caspian steppe) that L131 appeared. Despite the predominant L446 presence in Europe, I see on Family Tree DNA that there are lots of L446+ individuals in Saudi Arabia, meaning that L446 originated in Eurasia, likely the same place as L131. Now CTS11984 and CTS8862 both seem to be only found in the European but could have either appeared also in the north Caucasus or in Europe. Although the age for the T subclades goes back to the Neolithic, I cannot find any source of Neolithic culture/peoples spreading from the Caucasus, into north of the Black Sea, and entering Europe. I may be wrong, but is there a possibility that the northern L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 lineages were dispersed by the Indo-Europeans?

I know the Indo-Europeans were predominantly haplogroup R (R1a + R1b) but the compelling hypotheses for the origins of the Indo-Europeans seem to point to a Pontic-Caspian steppe/north Caucasus area of origin, the same as L131. Also, the presence of L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 in the British Isles, which have some of the least Neolithic influence (typical of Northern Europe), can be explained by an introduction via the Celts (supported by the presence of these lineages in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England). Even the presence of L446 sister clade P322/P328 in Scandinavia, Shetland, and Orkney Islands can be attributed to an Indo-European introduction, namely the Germanic peoples (Norse, Vikings, etc.). And when you said that the T-project managers told you that your line came into the Venice area when the Italics came in via the eastern Alpine passes, it appears to support these hypotheses. And when they said that your line also came from the Black Sea area, it also coincides with an Indo-European introduction.
Also, even Maciamo suggested that L131 was absorbed by the Indo-Europeans as they spread eastward into Central Asia, owing to its presence in Xinjiang (extreme western China, next to Kazakhstan).

Therefore, what I see is that L131 and it's European oriented lineages originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe north of the Caucasus. Later or around the same time, they were absorbed and assimilated into the Proto-Indo-European substrate and then migrated along with the Indo-Europeans in their successful expansions into Europe.
 
Since we share a genetic distance of 0, but have a different surname (and largely different national ancestries), we likely share a common male ancestor that lived centuries to thousands of years ago.
 
Also @Sile, I wish to refresh myself on the possible origins for L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862. I remember you saying and reading elsewhere that M272 (our line) migrated north of the Caspian and it was in the northern Caucasus (Pontic-Caspian steppe) that L131 appeared. Despite the predominant L446 presence in Europe, I see on Family Tree DNA that there are lots of L446+ individuals in Saudi Arabia, meaning that L446 originated in Eurasia, likely the same place as L131. Now CTS11984 and CTS8862 both seem to be only found in the European but could have either appeared also in the north Caucasus or in Europe. Although the age for the T subclades goes back to the Neolithic, I cannot find any source of Neolithic culture/peoples spreading from the Caucasus, into north of the Black Sea, and entering Europe. I may be wrong, but is there a possibility that the northern L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 lineages were dispersed by the Indo-Europeans?

I know the Indo-Europeans were predominantly haplogroup R (R1a + R1b) but the compelling hypotheses for the origins of the Indo-Europeans seem to point to a Pontic-Caspian steppe/north Caucasus area of origin, the same as L131. Also, the presence of L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 in the British Isles, which have some of the least Neolithic influence (typical of Northern Europe), can be explained by an introduction via the Celts (supported by the presence of these lineages in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England). Even the presence of L446 sister clade P322/P328 in Scandinavia, Shetland, and Orkney Islands can be attributed to an Indo-European introduction, namely the Germanic peoples (Norse, Vikings, etc.). And when you said that the T-project managers told you that your line came into the Venice area when the Italics came in via the eastern Alpine passes, it appears to support these hypotheses. And when they said that your line also came from the Black Sea area, it also coincides with an Indo-European introduction.
Also, even Maciamo suggested that L131 was absorbed by the Indo-Europeans as they spread eastward into Central Asia, owing to its presence in Xinjiang (extreme western China, next to Kazakhstan).

Therefore, what I see is that L131 and it's European oriented lineages originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe north of the Caucasus. Later or around the same time, they were absorbed and assimilated into the Proto-Indo-European substrate and then migrated along with the Indo-Europeans in their successful expansions into Europe.

The predominate T areas in the middle-east areas today are.......assyrians 16%, armenians 7%, Azeri 9%, lezkins 7%, dagestan 6%, there are far less % in saudi arabia ( except the "saudi nobility" ) ......I was once told the saudi nobility cam south from Persia.

The pontic-caspian area includes the
this is what Maciano correctly states....T1a2 has been found as far east as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. This branch probably penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe during the Neolithic (perhaps alongside G2a3b1 and J2b2) ......T1a2 is L131 line

You also need to remember that T along with L, G and J broke off early from its parent K before K ever thought about forming P which later formed the R group. these "west-asian" TLGJ, could have been the first in europe ...the scouts/hunter gathers/ herders

R dominated europe because they brought along "dynastic" system of concubines , something the hunter gather herders did not have


In regards to 1 project manager states ............"i thought you had slavic, you do not, I thought you had iberic or balkan, you don't ., no african or ashkenazi ?!
the other states alpine ....either east or west alpine
 
Since we share a genetic distance of 0, but have a different surname (and largely different national ancestries), we likely share a common male ancestor that lived centuries to thousands of years ago.

I was told 0 means not older than 800 years
 
Yes, I may have jumped the gun regarding the distribution of T in Europe, especially T-L131. An old Neolithic origin and distribution is the more likely situation.

Now, I updated to 37 Y-STRs and we are no longer closely related at all. The closest match I have now is a man from the Azores, with surname Lemas, who is a genetic distance of 4 from me. Otherwise, I have no close matches in any respect. The 25 Y-STRs showed that I was a distance of 1 from Lemas and several Frush/Froshour (German/German-Americans); no individuals with a distance of 0.
 
Yes, I may have jumped the gun regarding the distribution of T in Europe, especially T-L131. An old Neolithic origin and distribution is the more likely situation.

Now, I updated to 37 Y-STRs and we are no longer closely related at all. The closest match I have now is a man from the Azores, with surname Lemas, who is a genetic distance of 4 from me. Otherwise, I have no close matches in any respect. The 25 Y-STRs showed that I was a distance of 1 from Lemas and several Frush/Froshour (German/German-Americans); no individuals with a distance of 0.

in the project site where we sit , you need to ignore the fast mutating red DYS ones and check the others , ...the darker the blue the slower the mutation change.

we miss in DYS447..........you are like 15% of the world, I am 2% of the world

we then have 5 misses in 37 markers , so we fit here

[SIZE=+2]Re: Y Chromosome Marker Details: DYS 447[/SIZE]

As an administrator ( not me ) with a study with persons who have tested with Family Tree, DNA Heritage, Ancesrty.com and SMFG, we use the following simple guidelines to apply to all:

37 Marker level:
. A 37/37 match: Very Tightly Related.
. A 36/37 match: Tightly Related. Family Tree states that very few people achieve this close of a match.
. A 35/37 or 34/37 match: Related.
. A 33/37 or 32/37 match: Marginal.
. A 31/37 match and beyond: You are not related and the odds are that you have not shared a common male ancestor with anyone in this group within thousands of years.



we are in the marginal group
 
KF

do you match any of mine below, some are in ysearch search, most are not. these are surnames and origins ( i have left you out , it did have you as cuba, but in haplo-origins ( ydna ftdna) you are now spain )

Da Lessio, north italy
Fava, North italy
Mozentic, Slovenia .............stated venetian from name Mozen ( IMO , could be like the austrian below)
Schales, South Germany
Molzen, Austria
Toigo, North Italy
Cemin, North Italy
Viselli, central Italy
Rossi, North Italy
Higuera, Basque
and Benedetto, south Italy

plus 7 from the british isles ( mostly irish and welsh )
 
KF

do you match any of mine below, some are in ysearch search, most are not. these are surnames and origins ( i have left you out , it did have you as cuba, but in haplo-origins ( ydna ftdna) you are now spain )

Da Lessio, north italy
Fava, North italy
Mozentic, Slovenia .............stated venetian from name Mozen ( IMO , could be like the austrian below)
Schales, South Germany
Molzen, Austria
Toigo, North Italy
Cemin, North Italy
Viselli, central Italy
Rossi, North Italy
Higuera, Basque
and Benedetto, south Italy

plus 7 from the british isles ( mostly irish and welsh )

I match the following from your list:

12 Y-STRs:
Mozetič (0)
Schales (0) [FTDNA]
Benedetto (0)
Viselli (1)
Higuera (1)
Rossi (1) [FTDNA]
Rossi (6) [Ysearch]
Schales (6) [Ysearch]

25 Y-STRs:
Schales (6) [Ysearch]
Rossi (6) [Ysearch]

37 Y-STRs:
Schales (6) [Ysearch]
 
in the project site where we sit , you need to ignore the fast mutating red DYS ones and check the others , ...the darker the blue the slower the mutation change.

we miss in DYS447..........you are like 15% of the world, I am 2% of the world

we then have 5 misses in 37 markers , so we fit here

[SIZE=+2]Re: Y Chromosome Marker Details: DYS 447[/SIZE]

As an administrator ( not me ) with a study with persons who have tested with Family Tree, DNA Heritage, Ancesrty.com and SMFG, we use the following simple guidelines to apply to all:

37 Marker level:
. A 37/37 match: Very Tightly Related.
. A 36/37 match: Tightly Related. Family Tree states that very few people achieve this close of a match.
. A 35/37 or 34/37 match: Related.
. A 33/37 or 32/37 match: Marginal.
. A 31/37 match and beyond: You are not related and the odds are that you have not shared a common male ancestor with anyone in this group within thousands of years.



we are in the marginal group

Oh this is interesting... where is the site/source where you got this from?

Is a marginal relation noteworthy?

I have to review the slower mutating STRs, especially in regards to my match on FTDNA that was a distance of 4 from me (Lemas).
 
FTDNA is listing me as Spain? So when you click on haplo-origins it actually shows me as Spain, despite the farthest my documented line goes back is in Cuba. I know it's obvious it could have come from Spain but I didn't confirm or state that.
 
FTDNA is listing me as Spain? So when you click on haplo-origins it actually shows me as Spain, despite the farthest my documented line goes back is in Cuba. I know it's obvious it could have come from Spain but I didn't confirm or state that.

haplogroup origins cannot give me your cuba, ......it will give me Spain along with my other Italy and ireland.

Isogg T is updated...........looks like we will go back under L446
 
Oh ok.

And where is this update? I can't find any updated info on the ISOGG site or on FTDNA
 
Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.
 
Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.

as stated in isogg T - cts8862 and cts11984 will be replaced by L446 .............check other CTS which sit with L446 now

L446 is eastern alps and britain and all in between
 
Table S7. Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.
Ancestry
Y-Chromosome
Haplogroups
Absolute Frequency
Relative Frequency
African
BT
68
17.7
Eurasian
F
96
25.0
K
4
1.0
R1a1
4
1.0
R1b1a2
169
44.0
T1a
1
0.3
R1b1b2a1
40
10.4
Native American
Q1a2a1a1
2
0.5

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004488#pgen.1004488-Brin1

KF...that T1 person must be your family!
 
T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446
• • • T1a3 L1255


  • Moved CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 from Investigation to tree on 21 July 2014.
  • Added CTS1774, CTS2214, CTS3767, CTS6280, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 to Investigation on 21 July 2014.

red text = isogg T today

so, CTS8862 and CTS11984 are under investigation and likely outcome is they will be downstream from L446......

if you have CTS11796, CTS12108 as positive and have L490 , you could be from caucasus instead of levant

Note: M70 is removed as being the originator of T1 , but is originator of T1a

T1 is now under L206 or M193


so for me
T by M272
T1 by M193
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131
T1a2b by L446
 
Table S7. Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.
Ancestry
Y-Chromosome
Haplogroups
Absolute Frequency
Relative Frequency
African
BT
68
17.7
Eurasian
F
96
25.0
K
4
1.0
R1a1
4
1.0
R1b1a2
169
44.0
T1a
1
0.3
R1b1b2a1
40
10.4
Native American
Q1a2a1a1
2
0.5

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004488#pgen.1004488-Brin1

KF...that T1 person must be your family!

I think it is unlikely that they are my family. There is a certain percentage of T individuals in Spain as well as in the Spanish Americas, that T1a individual is probably just one of many. Even if they were T1a2b, it would be still unlikely that they are my family (related to me paternally that is). If I knew their surname, then I could corroborate.
I do note, however, that T is low in Spain and even lower in Cuba. For sure, there are less than a dozen Fundoras from my line still in Cuba and possibly more but we do not have enough genealogical evidence to conclude anything.
 

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