Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

[Huracan]

Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.

[Sile]

Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.

as stated in isogg T - cts8862 and cts11984 will be replaced by L446 .............check other CTS which sit with L446 now

L446 is eastern alps and britain and all in between

[Sile]

Table S7. Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.

Ancestry	Y-Chromosome Haplogroups	Absolute Frequency	Relative Frequency
African	BT	68	17.7
Eurasian	F	96	25.0
K	4	1.0
R1a1	4	1.0
R1b1a2	169	44.0
T1a	1	0.3
R1b1b2a1	40	10.4
Native American	Q1a2a1a1	2	0.5

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/....1004488-Brin1

KF...that T1 person must be your family!

[Sile]

T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446
• • • T1a3 L1255

• Moved CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 from Investigation to tree on 21 July 2014.
• Added CTS1774, CTS2214, CTS3767, CTS6280, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 to Investigation on 21 July 2014.

red text = isogg T today

so, CTS8862 and CTS11984 are under investigation and likely outcome is they will be downstream from L446......

if you have CTS11796, CTS12108 as positive and have L490 , you could be from caucasus instead of levant

Note: M70 is removed as being the originator of T1 , but is originator of T1a

T1 is now under L206 or M193


so for me
T by M272
T1 by M193
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131
T1a2b by L446

[Huracan]

Table S7. Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.

Ancestry	Y-Chromosome Haplogroups	Absolute Frequency	Relative Frequency
African	BT	68	17.7
Eurasian	F	96	25.0
K	4	1.0
R1a1	4	1.0
R1b1a2	169	44.0
T1a	1	0.3
R1b1b2a1	40	10.4
Native American	Q1a2a1a1	2	0.5

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/....1004488-Brin1

KF...that T1 person must be your family!

I think it is unlikely that they are my family. There is a certain percentage of T individuals in Spain as well as in the Spanish Americas, that T1a individual is probably just one of many. Even if they were T1a2b, it would be still unlikely that they are my family (related to me paternally that is). If I knew their surname, then I could corroborate.
I do note, however, that T is low in Spain and even lower in Cuba. For sure, there are less than a dozen Fundoras from my line still in Cuba and possibly more but we do not have enough genealogical evidence to conclude anything.

[Huracan]

T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446
• • • T1a3 L1255

• Moved CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 from Investigation to tree on 21 July 2014.
• Added CTS1774, CTS2214, CTS3767, CTS6280, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 to Investigation on 21 July 2014.

red text = isogg T today

so, CTS8862 and CTS11984 are under investigation and likely outcome is they will be downstream from L446......

if you have CTS11796, CTS12108 as positive and have L490 , you could be from caucasus instead of levant

Note: M70 is removed as being the originator of T1 , but is originator of T1a

T1 is now under L206 or M193


so for me
T by M272
T1 by M193
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131
T1a2b by L446

Oh this is interesting! I used MorleyDNA again to see where my tested SNPs fall under and I get this:

T by M272
T1 by L490
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131 (also CTS11796 and CTS12108)
T1a2b by L446

Does this mean I am Caucasus instead of Levant, as you stated?

And this is what I see now on the ISOGG site:"CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014" also that CTS11796 and CTS12108 are equivalent to L446

[Sile]

Oh this is interesting! I used MorleyDNA again to see where my tested SNPs fall under and I get this:

T by M272
T1 by L490
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131 (also CTS11796 and CTS12108)
T1a2b by L446

Does this mean I am Caucasus instead of Levant, as you stated?

And this is what I see now on the ISOGG site:"CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014" also that CTS11796 and CTS12108 are equivalent to L446

I am truly unsure if you are caucasus...I am reading on texts for the DYS390 marker .........there is a lot of talk from many haplogroups regarding DYS390 as a geographical indicator

on Morley

morley has stopped work on MorleyDNA ( what you got is accurate) and is only doing clarifyDNA which is based on bigY
he said

The "Morley" tab you speak of gets inserted on your BigY results page by a third-party Chrome extension. I have no part in that extension, nor did I ever. I was not notified ahead of time that the extension would, for the purpose of BigY analysis, try to harness ytree.MorleyDNA.com's functionality.

The tool at ytree.MorleyDNA.com was built for Geno 2.0 data. The online predictor and its underlying dataset haven't been modified since July or August of 2013 -- before BigY's announcement. The output of the ytree.MorleyDNA.com tool is essentially static: the classifications and lists of unplaced SNPs will not change, even as new data becomes available. I don't have any enhancements scheduled for ytree.MorleyDNA.com, but the tool will remain online, primarily as a service to those who ordered Geno 2.0. www.clarifYDNA.com is my current focus.

BigY data is more complicated to work with. And there are known basal discrepancies between the phylogeny implied by Geno 2.0 data (or, at least, FTDNA's Geno 2.0 calls), and the one implied by "next-gen" data. Using a Geno-tuned predictor on next-gen data can produce some strange results.

[Sile]

@KF

Try the new Beta YHRD.org site , do the manual imput selection, select the middle option ( 17 STR marker) and place your heat map when you are finished in here.

YHRD.org is the most accurate Ydna test that is done..........they get 5 different samples from every individual tested and throw all out if 1 sample is corrupt.

below is my heat map for 16/17 exact markers ( red )...........blue indicates all other T people with 12 to 15 exact markers which match me.

I have only 1 person which is 17/17 with me ........from linz, Austria ...............I think it is my relative Carlo who left for salzburg in 1871.



the only issue with YHRD is that they never reveal the owner that was tested.

BTW...I never tested in YHRD

[Huracan]

I couldn't do the 17 markers because I only did 37 Y-STRs and not 67. Some of the ones included in the 17 marker option I hadn't tested for so it was impossible for me to do. Since FTDNA gave me 13-13-16 for DYS385a and b, I used the two situations (13, 13) and (13, 16).

Here is when I did 13 and 13 for the 10 marker option (SWGDAM):
Heat Map.jpg
The 3 matches were: Oberöstereich (Austria), Ljubljana (Slovenia), and an Australian

Here is when I did 13 and 16:
Heat Map 2.jpg
The 4 matches I got were: Prague, Albania (Tosk), Athens, and India

How did you find out how many markers they shared with you?? The larger the red glowing areas, the closer the relation correct? Then for the first map, the Austria one was slightly bigger than the Croatia one and the Australia one was really dim, while the second map its Greece and India, followed by Albania then Prague.

[Huracan]

Also @Sile, my closest match for 37 Y-STRs is a man from the Azores of surname Lemas (Galician) who is 4 steps away. Recent research likely puts my paternal family in the Canary Islands in the early 1700s and my surname may now be Galician or Portuguese (from fundura "depth").

I was wondering once again (if I haven't asked before) how L446 could have been brought to Spain? (for I and Espinoza from Peru [CTS11984+] are the only of Spanish descent to be L446 that I have seen) You think it could have been brought by far-wandering Neolithic farmers from Central Europe (as L446's distribution seems to suggest a correlation with the Danubian culture) all the way to Iberia? Or maybe by the Celts as they moved from Central Europe into Iberia? Or even Roman settlers or slaves brought to Iberia?

The thing is that L446 is so uncommon beyond its distribution in the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, and parts of Eastern Europe.

The closest matches I have at 25 Y-STRs were Germans of the same surname (Frush, Froshour) [1-2 steps, all 1 except one which was 2] and the Lemas individual [1 step].

By 100 BC, the Romans had conquered the majority of Iberia (especially the western Atlantic coast [Lusitania and Gallaecia]) and during this time or after, slaves from the Alps or north of the Alps could have been taken to this area and give rise to my paternal line. Or they could simply have been Roman settlers. Mind you, these are just suggestions and I may be going out on a limb here. I was leaning earlier to the Celtic idea but the Roman scenario seems more likely because even with 25 Y-STRs, these individuals show a high degree of relation, which hints at a recent common ancestor not too long ago (on the order of centuries or even a millennia).

[Sile]

I couldn't do the 17 markers because I only did 37 Y-STRs and not 67. Some of the ones included in the 17 marker option I hadn't tested for so it was impossible for me to do. Since FTDNA gave me 13-13-16 for DYS385a and b, I used the two situations (13, 13) and (13, 16).

Here is when I did 13 and 13 for the 10 marker option (SWGDAM):
Heat Map.jpg
The 3 matches were: Oberöstereich (Austria), Ljubljana (Slovenia), and an Australian

Here is when I did 13 and 16:
Heat Map 2.jpg
The 4 matches I got were: Prague, Albania (Tosk), Athens, and India

How did you find out how many markers they shared with you?? The larger the red glowing areas, the closer the relation correct? Then for the first map, the Austria one was slightly bigger than the Croatia one and the Australia one was really dim, while the second map its Greece and India, followed by Albania then Prague.

read attachment as you tested with this SWGDAM

http://swgdam.org/SWGDAM_YSTR_Guidel...2014_FINAL.pdf

All I was told about the heat map variations , is that the hotter the heat map the more it reflects the most important STR ..................but I need to confirm this via other sources

Your DYS385 issue is in the attachment

[Sile]

Also @Sile, my closest match for 37 Y-STRs is a man from the Azores of surname Lemas (Galician) who is 4 steps away. Recent research likely puts my paternal family in the Canary Islands in the early 1700s and my surname may now be Galician or Portuguese (from fundura "depth").

I was wondering once again (if I haven't asked before) how L446 could have been brought to Spain? (for I and Espinoza from Peru [CTS11984+] are the only of Spanish descent to be L446 that I have seen) You think it could have been brought by far-wandering Neolithic farmers from Central Europe (as L446's distribution seems to suggest a correlation with the Danubian culture) all the way to Iberia? Or maybe by the Celts as they moved from Central Europe into Iberia? Or even Roman settlers or slaves brought to Iberia?

The thing is that L446 is so uncommon beyond its distribution in the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, and parts of Eastern Europe.

The closest matches I have at 25 Y-STRs were Germans of the same surname (Frush, Froshour) [1-2 steps, all 1 except one which was 2] and the Lemas individual [1 step].

By 100 BC, the Romans had conquered the majority of Iberia (especially the western Atlantic coast [Lusitania and Gallaecia]) and during this time or after, slaves from the Alps or north of the Alps could have been taken to this area and give rise to my paternal line. Or they could simply have been Roman settlers. Mind you, these are just suggestions and I may be going out on a limb here. I was leaning earlier to the Celtic idea but the Roman scenario seems more likely because even with 25 Y-STRs, these individuals show a high degree of relation, which hints at a recent common ancestor not too long ago (on the order of centuries or even a millennia).

The person named Silesian, post a trail of the Alans people from the caucasus ................I will see if I can find it .

Galicia does have a few L446 ( especially Cantalabria area) , but Galicia is very old celtic lands from migrating celts from Central Europe .............maybe Lebrok can help here of the Iberian posters

[Sile]

@KF

YhRD

I did the 4th in line and had 1 match in Wels Austria

did the centre and had 2 matches, Wels Austria and Enego in Veneto Italy

did the 2nd and 1st ones and they where the same and had 3 matches , Wels Austria, Enego in Veneto Italy, and Rovte in Slovenia

apparantly I stuffed up how DYS385 should be imputed .....and also never found DYS635 anywhere in my markers

after fixing yesterday stuff up ...I moved from SouthEast European to an equal split of east European and west European ............this is confusing .............maybe they should have had a central European

[Huracan]

The person named Silesian, post a trail of the Alans people from the caucasus ................I will see if I can find it .

Galicia does have a few L446 ( especially Cantalabria area) , but Galicia is very old celtic lands from migrating celts from Central Europe .............maybe Lebrok can help here of the Iberian posters

Where did you find that these places had L446?? I have never found anywhere that said that. Regardless, I am glad that it can be found there because that makes me less of an anomaly and my paternal line easier to explain.

Yes indeed, Galicia is very old Celtic... should I message Lebrok?

[Huracan]

Yeah, I am not very familar with YHRD so I am a bit confused as to what you're saying, but it's ok. And the results from the heat map may be significant but since I could only compare with 10 markers, it's nowhere near as accurate as the other marker amounts.

[Sile]

Where did you find that these places had L446?? I have never found anywhere that said that. Regardless, I am glad that it can be found there because that makes me less of an anomaly and my paternal line easier to explain.

Yes indeed, Galicia is very old Celtic... should I message Lebrok?

there are L446 in all the Caucasus, from people in dagestan to the lezkins to the azeri to the armenians ( unsure for georgians), Balkar people in the mountains of north caucasus has also some L446 .

Ask anyone , maybe the iberian posters are your best bet , as I am unsure when northern Spain became celtinized ..............there are L446 in central and southern germany , the alps, hungaria .

Try
http://www.smgf.org/index.jspx

many Iberians test here .........its free, but allows anyone to try their site only twice per day.

[Sile]

Yeah, I am not very familar with YHRD so I am a bit confused as to what you're saying, but it's ok. And the results from the heat map may be significant but since I could only compare with 10 markers, it's nowhere near as accurate as the other marker amounts.

YHRD due to their stringent testing methods are the only genetic company used by all nations for forensic testing .

the only problem with YHRD is that they will never reveal the name of the origin of the sampler. But I was told last week that they do reveal the geographical ancestry.

I am stating in my post#88, that I tested all the 5 tests.
Starting from right to the left.

the furthest , the right one , the 5th , showed zero markers for me
the 4th showed 1 match
the 3rd showed 2 matches
the 1st and 2nd showed 3 matches.
meaning that the further right in the tests you go the more accurate would be you geographical ancestors..............not to say that test #1 is in error, which it is not.

[Huracan]

there are L446 in all the Caucasus, from people in dagestan to the lezkins to the azeri to the armenians ( unsure for georgians), Balkar people in the mountains of north caucasus has also some L446 .

Ask anyone , maybe the iberian posters are your best bet , as I am unsure when northern Spain became celtinized ..............there are L446 in central and southern germany , the alps, hungaria .

Try
http://www.smgf.org/index.jspx

many Iberians test here .........its free, but allows anyone to try their site only twice per day.

I used it yesterday and today and the closest match I got was a man from Brazil with surname Martins (Portuguese) with whom I had a 23/26 match using 13-13 for DYS385. I was given the following data for that result:
Most likely TMRCA - 21 generations - 651 years
25% Cumulative Probability -18 gens - 558 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 26 gens - 806 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 35 gens - 1085 years
Note: I only differed with him at DYS385b, YCAIIb, and DYS442

Using 13-16 for DYS385, I got a 24/26 match with the same man and this was the new TMRCA data:
Most likely TMRCA - 14 generations - 434 years
25% Cumulative Probability -13 gens - 403 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 19 gens - 589 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 27 gens - 837 years
Note: I only differed with him at YCAIIb, and DYS442

Mind you, the other results I got where an Italian man (Lippi), several Englishmen, and a Mexican which were close in relation (80-70%) but were nowhere near as the 88 and 92% with this individual.

[Huracan]

Which value for the TMRCA should I pay most attention to? the "Most likely TMRCA" or the "75% Cumulative Prob."??

[Sile]

I used it yesterday and today and the closest match I got was a man from Brazil with surname Martins (Portuguese) with whom I had a 23/26 match using 13-13 for DYS385. I was given the following data for that result:
Most likely TMRCA - 21 generations - 651 years
25% Cumulative Probability -18 gens - 558 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 26 gens - 806 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 35 gens - 1085 years
Note: I only differed with him at DYS385b, YCAIIb, and DYS442

Using 13-16 for DYS385, I got a 24/26 match with the same man and this was the new TMRCA data:
Most likely TMRCA - 14 generations - 434 years
25% Cumulative Probability -13 gens - 403 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 19 gens - 589 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 27 gens - 837 years
Note: I only differed with him at YCAIIb, and DYS442

Mind you, the other results I got where an Italian man (Lippi), several Englishmen, and a Mexican which were close in relation (80-70%) but were nowhere near as the 88 and 92% with this individual.

thanks

I only got lippi from your above tests...........I contacted him. he is from Brescia ( north of , as stated) in east lombardy, Italy
I will check again against lippi late and let you know

remove the fast mutating STR and your GD might be closer or test again without the fast mutating STR

[Huracan]

thanks

I only got lippi from your above tests...........I contacted him. he is from Brescia ( north of , as stated) in east lombardy, Italy
I will check again against lippi late and let you know

remove the fast mutating STR and your GD might be closer or test again without the fast mutating STR

When I excluded DYS385, DYS439, DYS458, DYS449, and DYS464, I got Lippi and Martins as my closest matches. This time, it says Lippi and I have a most likely TMRCA of 20 generations (620 years) while Martins is 21 generations (651 years).

[Huracan]

Going along with my Celtic-distribution theory, Brescia was occupied by a Gallic tribe in the 7th century BC. When the Romans came in 225 BC, the tribe (Cenomani) submitted. In 202 BC, it became part of a Celtic confederation against the Romans but suddenly switched allegencies and attacked their long-time allies, the Gallic Insubres. Afterwards, they became allies, maintained a certain administrative freedom, and, in 41 BC, they were given Roman citizenship (becoming Romanized), in Brescia (which became a Roman city in 89 BC).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia

[Huracan]

Not to go off on a tangent, but I'm starting to consider more and more at least some of the L446 lineages were spread by the migrating Celts from southern Germany and Austria (Alpine region). The close relation (anywhere between 0-3, maybe 4, steps) of T-L446 individuals from Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Germany, and Italy seems to indicate a more recent TMRCA than the Neolithic times, when you would ordinarily expect a Neolithic haplogroup to spread throughout Europe.

I do not know if this hypothesis is applicable to all cases. For instance, the Espinoza individual from Peru (who is T-CTS11984) is 0-1 steps from individuals from Russia and East Europe, but that was using only 12 Y-STRs. He stated in his Nat Geno 2.0 story that "he was surprised to find that his father had Ashkenazim roots." I always thought that meant his paternal grandmother's side, but it could actually be his father's too; this would explain why his line has 0-1 steps from Belarusians, Poles, and Russians. I honestly do not know what to make of it though. These are all assumptions.

[Sile]

Going along with my Celtic-distribution theory, Brescia was occupied by a Gallic tribe in the 7th century BC. When the Romans came in 225 BC, the tribe (Cenomani) submitted. In 202 BC, it became part of a Celtic confederation against the Romans but suddenly switched allegencies and attacked their long-time allies, the Gallic Insubres. Afterwards, they became allies, maintained a certain administrative freedom, and, in 41 BC, they were given Roman citizenship (becoming Romanized), in Brescia (which became a Roman city in 89 BC).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia

before the cenomani arrived in the brescia/verona areas........they lived in southern france...between Marseilles and the spanish border...............and even before that, their origin is in Vendee in NW France near brittany

[Huracan]

@KF

Try the new Beta YHRD.org site , do the manual imput selection, select the middle option ( 17 STR marker) and place your heat map when you are finished in here.

YHRD.org is the most accurate Ydna test that is done..........they get 5 different samples from every individual tested and throw all out if 1 sample is corrupt.

below is my heat map for 16/17 exact markers ( red )...........blue indicates all other T people with 12 to 15 exact markers which match me.

I have only 1 person which is 17/17 with me ........from linz, Austria ...............I think it is my relative Carlo who left for salzburg in 1871.



the only issue with YHRD is that they never reveal the owner that was tested.

BTW...I never tested in YHRD

Sile, would you say that those red individuals are also T-L446?? If so, this would help in pin-pointing my paternal origins. Also, I messaged Lebrok (who wasn't Iberian) and he said that without enough or further research, it is too early to tell about the distribution of L446 in at least Spain.