Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

[Sile]

Sile, would you say that those red individuals are also T-L446?? If so, this would help in pin-pointing my paternal origins. Also, I messaged Lebrok (who wasn't Iberian) and he said that without enough or further research, it is too early to tell about the distribution of L446 in at least Spain.

yes, but this map is only the minimal tests (12 marker test). as I go to the next test, everything disappears except the north italy , slovenia, Austria and hungary markers


In the bigY.........there are 3 x L446, one from Faenza in italy bordering tuscany and emilia-romagna..........and 2 in peru..........you might have some luck there. but I do not have the kit numbers ( i only have the tuscan kit#).............none of these are Yhrd tested

[Huracan]

I recently reevaluated my STRs using YHRD (this time uploading my STRs via an Excel file) and used the Yfilter Plus, but I only got results from the Minimal Haplotype Database since no one matches me at the higher resolutions. I got the same results as last time.

For 13-16 for DYS385:
1 Greek (from Athens)
1 Tosk Albanian
1 Czech (from Prague)
1 Bhil Indian (from Gujarat)

I noticed this for the matches, does this mean they match all the markers I put in?
YHRD 2.jpg

Further, using 13-13 for DYS385, I got 2 matches at the SWGDAM level:
1 Austrian (from Oberöstereich)
1 Slovenian (from Ljubljana)

Note these were brighter and closer to me than the Prague or Albanian sample. The Greek, Indian, Austrian, and Slovenian were the brightest and closest to me.

Does this make the Bhil Indian L446+? If so, this would expand the range of L446 and possibly L131 very far east indeed. L446 has already been confirmed in some Saudi Arabian individuals but comparing our STRs, they are not closely related to us at all. If I were to guess, the Bhil Indian's L446 likely arrived in India from a Neolithic migrant from the Near East. I had previously thought of the Hellenic Greeks (due to his relation to the Greek sample) with their widespread empire being a possibility but the empire never reached into India.

[Huracan]

Also, considering everything, my hypothesis on the origin of L446 in Spain and the origin of my paternal line is via the Cardial Ware culture of the Early Neolithic. It reached as far west as the Mondego on Portugal's Atlantic coast. L446 would have accompanied L131 migrants and could likely be found at small frequencies all over Spain (an assumption).

Then, as Neolithic populations expanded, the descendants of the Cardial (Epi-Cardial) and subsequent Megalithic culture (originating from southern Portugal) would have brought agriculture (and L446) into Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria. As sources state that these regions were only introduced to agriculture via the Megalithic culture, then it would have most likely carried T with it.

I am not saying this is the only option and numerous other sources could have introduced T to these regions, but for L446, I see this is as a plausible scenario.

What confirms this is the relation my STRs and paternal line has to Galicians (1), Portuguese (2), and Italians (1-2 from northern parts and 2-3 from southern parts), indicating at least a distant paternal relation likely established by the expanding Cardial through the Mediterranean.

[Sile]

yes, but this map is only the minimal tests (12 marker test). as I go to the next test, everything disappears except the north italy , slovenia, Austria and hungary markers


In the bigY.........there are 3 x L446, one from Faenza in italy bordering tuscany and emilia-romagna..........and 2 in peru..........you might have some luck there. but I do not have the kit numbers ( i only have the tuscan kit#).............none of these are Yhrd tested

oops error...not peru ,........ but iberia ( galicia) and puerto rico

[Sile]

I recently reevaluated my STRs using YHRD (this time uploading my STRs via an Excel file) and used the Yfilter Plus, but I only got results from the Minimal Haplotype Database since no one matches me at the higher resolutions. I got the same results as last time.

For 13-16 for DYS385:
1 Greek (from Athens)
1 Tosk Albanian
1 Czech (from Prague)
1 Bhil Indian (from Gujarat)

I noticed this for the matches, does this mean they match all the markers I put in?
YHRD 2.jpg

Further, using 13-13 for DYS385, I got 2 matches at the SWGDAM level:
1 Austrian (from Oberöstereich)
1 Slovenian (from Ljubljana)

Note these were brighter and closer to me than the Prague or Albanian sample. The Greek, Indian, Austrian, and Slovenian were the brightest and closest to me.

Does this make the Bhil Indian L446+? If so, this would expand the range of L446 and possibly L131 very far east indeed. L446 has already been confirmed in some Saudi Arabian individuals but comparing our STRs, they are not closely related to us at all. If I were to guess, the Bhil Indian's L446 likely arrived in India from a Neolithic migrant from the Near East. I had previously thought of the Hellenic Greeks (due to his relation to the Greek sample) with their widespread empire being a possibility but the empire never reached into India.

do you have same areas as my post #83?


bhil india has 50% of european stock
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0032546


check the help guide for other information.

You might need to wait until all the drop down areas are finished and working, then see your admixture

[Sile]

Also, considering everything, my hypothesis on the origin of L446 in Spain and the origin of my paternal line is via the Cardial Ware culture of the Early Neolithic. It reached as far west as the Mondego on Portugal's Atlantic coast. L446 would have accompanied L131 migrants and could likely be found at small frequencies all over Spain (an assumption).

Then, as Neolithic populations expanded, the descendants of the Cardial (Epi-Cardial) and subsequent Megalithic culture (originating from southern Portugal) would have brought agriculture (and L446) into Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria. As sources state that these regions were only introduced to agriculture via the Megalithic culture, then it would have most likely carried T with it.

I am not saying this is the only option and numerous other sources could have introduced T to these regions, but for L446, I see this is as a plausible scenario.

What confirms this is the relation my STRs and paternal line has to Galicians (1), Portuguese (2), and Italians (1-2 from northern parts and 2-3 from southern parts), indicating at least a distant paternal relation likely established by the expanding Cardial through the Mediterranean.

ok

I have no doubt that T went with G, L, I and J into europe in the per-neolitihic times .

Why are you not placing L446 under L131 and its other branches? and seeing where they went. Subclades usually moved together with other haplogroups

T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446

P322 and P328 IIRC are germanic

[Huracan]

ok

I have no doubt that T went with G, L, I and J into europe in the per-neolitihic times .

Why are you not placing L446 under L131 and its other branches? and seeing where they went. Subclades usually moved together with other haplogroups

T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446

P322 and P328 IIRC are germanic

Actually, I kind of overlooked that. That makes total sense. I will look over where L131 is found in Iberia see where that leads me.

The fact that P322 and P328 being Germanic makes complete sense given their distribution (Netherlands, northern Germany, Scandinavia, and Poland)

[Huracan]

oops error...not peru ,........ but iberia ( galicia) and puerto rico

Interesting!!! The L446 in Galicia is starting to seem more promising

[Huracan]

do you have same areas as my post #83?


bhil india has 50% of european stock
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0032546


check the help guide for other information.

You might need to wait until all the drop down areas are finished and working, then see your admixture

In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.

What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.

[Sile]

In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.

What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.

The admixture part as well as others parts of Yhrd have not been finished yet...you will need to wait

[Sile]

In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.

What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.

check ftdna projects for Azores , galicia and spain ..................see if the T there matches you.........it does not match me

[Huracan]

I checked the FTDNA Projects for the Azores, Portugal, Galicia, and Spain. Only one person out of all those projects was T-L446, a man from the Azores project whose earliest ancestor was Antonio Dutra born in Portugal but is 6+ steps away from me. If you analyze his surname, it means someone from Utra in Flanders or Utrecht, meaning his L446 likely came from the Belgium-Netherlands area of Western Europe and technically not of Iberian stock.

I checked YFull, I wonder if you know about it already. I looked at their experimental tree and noticed the only individuals that were downstream of L446 were a Puerto Rican and a Spaniard (they were listed as CTS10538+, equivalent to CTS8862).

[Sile]

I checked the FTDNA Projects for the Azores, Portugal, Galicia, and Spain. Only one person out of all those projects was T-L446, a man from the Azores project whose earliest ancestor was Antonio Dutra born in Portugal but is 6+ steps away from me. If you analyze his surname, it means someone from Utra in Flanders or Utrecht, meaning his L446 likely came from the Belgium-Netherlands area of Western Europe and technically not of Iberian stock.

I checked YFull, I wonder if you know about it already. I looked at their experimental tree and noticed the only individuals that were downstream of L446 were a Puerto Rican and a Spaniard (they were listed as CTS10538+, equivalent to CTS8862).

I have checked YFull, but am unsure if its worthwhile. I have 2 of the CTS for the iberian and puerto rican, but have negative for the others. I think I sit between the TSI tuscan and these 2.

I figure I need to wait until they sort out their tree to match Isogg new July tree

YHRD is now only 1 step to go to complete new system...the admixture one. I reran it and only match , Austria, slovenia and north-east Italy .......all the rest have disappeared

[Sile]

how do you count genetic distance?

the infinite system or the step system

example if we have DYS390 of 22 for me and 24 for you ..........and every other SNP is identical

then IIRC, infinite system means a GD of 1 and
a step system means a GD of 2

this is why Ftdna GD numbers are different from ysearch GD numbers


it amazes me that in ftdna we have a 0 GD,
a 6 GD in ysearch and a
4 GD in ftdna T project

[Sile]

@ fundora

I got my negative rsults from Natgeno2 ( the long way round)

I have no M184 at all
negative for L25 and page00113 and many others

let me know what you got

[Huracan]

how do you count genetic distance?

the infinite system or the step system

example if we have DYS390 of 22 for me and 24 for you ..........and every other SNP is identical

then IIRC, infinite system means a GD of 1 and
a step system means a GD of 2

this is why Ftdna GD numbers are different from ysearch GD numbers


it amazes me that in ftdna we have a 0 GD,
a 6 GD in ysearch and a
4 GD in ftdna T project

I think I was using the step system...

[Huracan]

@ fundora

I got my negative rsults from Natgeno2 ( the long way round)

I have no M184 at all
negative for L25 and page00113 and many others

let me know what you got

FTDNA has me as "presumed positive" for M184 but positive for M272. Morley DNA confirmed I am negative for M184 and for L206. I'm also CYS9984+ which I believe you used to be designated as. I am also CTS12108+ as you are, but ISOGG places that as equivalent to L446... wouldn't you want to use a more downstream or terminal SNP?

[Sile]

FTDNA has me as "presumed positive" for M184 but positive for M272. Morley DNA confirmed I am negative for M184 and for L206. I'm also CYS9984+ which I believe you used to be designated as. I am also CTS12108+ as you are, but ISOGG places that as equivalent to L446... wouldn't you want to use a more downstream or terminal SNP?

I have these "presume positives" all cleared up..........basically, for me, I have no M184 or M193 or L206 or L455 at all



.i do not have the basal M184 for T
M183 Y A A
M185 Y C C
M186 Y I I
M187 Y D D
M188 Y C C

but have the other basal for T
M272 Y G G

I do not have M193
M190 Y A A
M191 Y T T
M192 Y C C
M194 Y T T
M195 Y A A


i do not have L206
L204 Y C C
L205 Y A A
L208 Y C C
L209 Y C C
L21 Y C C



I do not have L455
L451 Y G G
L453 Y C C
L454 Y C C
L455 Y - -
L456 Y A A
L457 Y G G
L458 Y C C
L46 Y A A

I do have L25 ........but I am negative ..........I am also negative for Page000113
L25 Y T T

To conclude the term "presumed positive" in ftdna means... although I do not have these markers I have equivalent markers in the same group

Some noted people, want me to Test BigY or Y prime as they think I have entered Europe in Mesolithic times and my genes would indicate where and when L446 began ..............I said, when I can afford it, having my father ill and sending a son to Europe has strained the coffers.

---Have you found your ancestral trail?


the correct marker call is what you have CTS8862...........I am positive for this as well. I will change mine soon in this forum

- Do you have matches with Reddick, Mozetic, or Dalessio and Fava
I am in a long email discussion with reddick...they are german from Hesse, with names Retgen, Rettig, Ruddoch and others.....I have 0 GD with this person.
Mozetic is Mozetti from south tyrol...I have 0 GD with this person

Dalessio as above, his parents from Molise italy, boy was born in 1879 in Salerno Campania Italy, left for USA in 1882, ............I have a 2 GD in ftdna with this person and a 15GD in ysearch ?!?!?!?!

[Huracan]

I have these "presume positives" all cleared up..........basically, for me, I have no M184 or M193 or L206 or L455 at all



.i do not have the basal M184 for T
M183 Y A A
M185 Y C C
M186 Y I I
M187 Y D D
M188 Y C C

but have the other basal for T
M272 Y G G

I do not have M193
M190 Y A A
M191 Y T T
M192 Y C C
M194 Y T T
M195 Y A A


i do not have L206
L204 Y C C
L205 Y A A
L208 Y C C
L209 Y C C
L21 Y C C



I do not have L455
L451 Y G G
L453 Y C C
L454 Y C C
L455 Y - -
L456 Y A A
L457 Y G G
L458 Y C C
L46 Y A A

I do have L25 ........but I am negative ..........I am also negative for Page000113
L25 Y T T

To conclude the term "presumed positive" in ftdna means... although I do not have these markers I have equivalent markers in the same group

Some noted people, want me to Test BigY or Y prime as they think I have entered Europe in Mesolithic times and my genes would indicate where and when L446 began ..............I said, when I can afford it, having my father ill and sending a son to Europe has strained the coffers.

---Have you found your ancestral trail?


the correct marker call is what you have CTS8862...........I am positive for this as well. I will change mine soon in this forum

- Do you have matches with Reddick, Mozetic, or Dalessio and Fava
I am in a long email discussion with reddick...they are german from Hesse, with names Retgen, Rettig, Ruddoch and others.....I have 0 GD with this person.
Mozetic is Mozetti from south tyrol...I have 0 GD with this person

Dalessio as above, his parents from Molise italy, boy was born in 1879 in Salerno Campania Italy, left for USA in 1882, ............I have a 2 GD in ftdna with this person and a 15GD in ysearch ?!?!?!?!

I am also negative for L206, L445, L452, M184, and M193. I am positive for M272 as you are.

Comparing 12 Y-STRs, I have 0 GD with Reddick and Mozetic (DYS385: 13, 13). I cannot find Dalessio or Fava on Ysearch or FTDNA.

In regards to my ancestral trail, I found that likely all Fundoras in Cuba came from the Canary Islands, as early as the 1730s. This means that my paternal line also came from the Canary Islands to Cuba. The recent migration of a Fundora family (friend's uncle's family) to Cuba from Galicia or Asturias in the 20th century points to a likely Iberian origin for Fundora... most likely Galician since:
(1) the closest genetic match I have (in fact that only one I have) at 37 Y-STRs is the Lemas individual from the Azores. His surname can be traced back to A Coruña, Galicia to the medieval times
(2) other close matches I had (especially SMGF) were from Portugal, next in line after Lemas
(3) migrational history increases the likelihood that my surname (and that my paternal family) would have come from Galicia, both in recent migrations of poor Galicians to Cuba and the early migrations of Galicians to the Canaries (15-16th centuries)

I think my paternal line will have no paper trail after my earliest current known paternal ancestor (Luis) because his parents were likely from the predecessor of the town Luis was born in. That predecessor town was abandoned and likely burnt to the ground in the 1890s.

[Huracan]

But that Mesolithic link that they are suggesting is very interesting! And I wish you the best of luck with your family :)

[Huracan]

A bit of a sidetrack, the previous statement of yours regarding to the presence of L446 in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria, especially the Cantabria area, may have some connection to the Franco-Cantabrian refugium but that's more Paleolithic.... never mind

[Sile]

I am also negative for L206, L445, L452, M184, and M193. I am positive for M272 as you are.

Comparing 12 Y-STRs, I have 0 GD with Reddick and Mozetic (DYS385: 13, 13). I cannot find Dalessio or Fava on Ysearch or FTDNA.

.

Dalessio ysearch .............YSU4S

[Huracan]

Dalessio ysearch .............YSU4S

He is greater than 6 steps away from me. I don't know, my genetic match list keeps on changing and seems confusing sometimes

[Sile]

He is greater than 6 steps away from me. I don't know, my genetic match list keeps on changing and seems confusing sometimes

what do you mean by keeps changing?.....in ysearch?

6 steps away from you, well......15 steps away from me.........yet ftdna who once had Dalessio zero GD from me, now sits at 2 GD from me.

reddick is still zero from me as well as 3 other "hessians", Smelser, Belser and Pelser..............I wonder if they are all related

Clearly something is amiss in the computations that these sites use

[Sile]

@ Fundora

do you have the following zero GD of these people in ftdna.

Charles Jones, David Hill, Thomas Jones ( not related to other Jones), Richard perry, William Atherholt, Enoch Scales, Johannes "Jhon" Schafer ...................all from USA, all from Virginia, South-Carolina or Georgia.......only Charles Jones claim british descent ( scot ). .............and Reddick, whose ancestors are hessian with names Rettig, retgen and ruddoch
The matrix links a few together