Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

[Huracan]

Hello everyone,

I have been an avid reader and follower of most of the posts and contents on this site... and now I finally joined it!

A bit of background:
My father first tested his Y back in 2007 with National Geographic's The Genographic Project, which revealed that he and I (as well as our paternal lineage) belonged to K2. As everything updated, we became M70. Then, last summer (2013), I tested myself this time with their Geno 2.0 Beta kit and it was revealed that I was T-CTS11984. The map shows my terminal SNP as L131* but the marker displayed for my profile and kit is CTS11984. I looked it up and it means "Chris Tyler-Smith", the scientist who recently discovered these SNPs and named them after himself. - Does this mean that CTS11984 is equivalent to L131*?

Beyond this, I have been undergoing deep and intense investigation regarding the origin of my surname (Fundora) and of my deep paternal ancestry. The earliest info I have is regarding my four-times great-grandfather, Luis Fundora, born about 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

The only other people that share the same SNP as I who have "stories" on the Nat Geno site are two men: one with a Peruvian father, born in Callao, Peru (with supposed Ashkenazim roots) and one of Irish paternal heritage with surname Sullivan.

I appreciate any help! Thanks!

[LeBrok]

Welcome to Eupedia KFundora.

[Huracan]

Thank you, LeBrok! :)

[Sile]

Hello everyone,

I have been an avid reader and follower of most of the posts and contents on this site... and now I finally joined it!

A bit of background:
My father first tested his Y back in 2007 with National Geographic's The Genographic Project, which revealed that he and I (as well as our paternal lineage) belonged to K2. As everything updated, we became M70. Then, last summer (2013), I tested myself this time with their Geno 2.0 Beta kit and it was revealed that I was T-CTS11984. The map shows my terminal SNP as L131* but the marker displayed for my profile and kit is CTS11984. I looked it up and it means "Chris Tyler-Smith", the scientist who recently discovered these SNPs and named them after himself. - Does this mean that CTS11984 is equivalent to L131*?

Beyond this, I have been undergoing deep and intense investigation regarding the origin of my surname (Fundora) and of my deep paternal ancestry. The earliest info I have is regarding my four-times great-grandfather, Luis Fundora, born about 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

The only other people that share the same SNP as I who have "stories" on the Nat Geno site are two men: one with a Peruvian father, born in Callao, Peru (with supposed Ashkenazim roots) and one of Irish paternal heritage with surname Sullivan.

I appreciate any help! Thanks!

no CTS11984 marker in T tree ( last update 30 Jan. 2014)
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

Did they give you any other markers?

[Huracan]

Sile,

I too noticed that the 2014 ISOGG tree did not have that marker. If not CTS11984, then I would just be L131.

[Huracan]

And no, the only markers given were CTS11984 and L131. I just finished transferring my Nat Geno info to FamilyTree DNA and it placed me in T-L131. Will test later for P322 and P327.

[Sile]

And no, the only markers given were CTS11984 and L131. I just finished transferring my Nat Geno info to FamilyTree DNA and it placed me in T-L131. Will test later for P322 and P327.

below is natogeno2 bracket for your SNP

K473 equivalent
// K474, CTS525, CTS1028, CTS1351, CTS1465, CTS3640, CTS7046, CTS8690, CTS11984

what is K473?

[Huracan]

Hold on, I just uploaded my transferred results into the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP Terminal Subclade Predictor and it came up as "most likely" T1a2b-L446! (using the author's experimental tree) Using the ISOGG Tree it came up also as T1a2b-L446. I just copied and pasted the SNP results from FamilyTree DNA and I never noticed that among the SNPs I was positive for, it said: L446+.

Below are the SNP results uploaded to FTDNA:
CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11358+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS11796+, CTS11984+, CTS12108+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1774+, CTS1848+, CTS1996+, CTS2157+, CTS2336+, CTS2888+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3767+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8862+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS9828+, CTS9984+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1493+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L131+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+

Also, on the Y-SNP predictor, when using the experimental tree, the results were (in order): T1a1, N1c1a1a1a1~2, R1b1a2a1a2b~1, and R1b1a2a2~2. I wonder what this means...if it means anything at all.

[Huracan]

below is natogeno2 bracket for your SNP

K473 equivalent
// K474, CTS525, CTS1028, CTS1351, CTS1465, CTS3640, CTS7046, CTS8690, CTS11984

what is K473?

Siles, when I looked it up, it came up on a page talking about Y-DNA Haplogroup O2b1a, with K473 being downstream of it. That makes no sense. I cannot post links yet, but it is the first result when you type in "K473 SNP" into Google and the fourth result when you type in "K473 equivalent SNP." It places it as a subgroup to O-47z. I wonder if this is a mistake or something...

Also, I just looked up on the ISOGG Tree (2014) and I came up positive also for CTS2157, CTS11796, and CTS12108, all possibly equivalent to L446.

[Sile]

Siles, when I looked it up, it came up on a page talking about Y-DNA Haplogroup O2b1a, with K473 being downstream of it. That makes no sense. I cannot post links yet, but it is the first result when you type in "K473 SNP" into Google and the fourth result when you type in "K473 equivalent SNP." It places it as a subgroup to O-47z. I wonder if this is a mistake or something...

Also, I just looked up on the ISOGG Tree (2014) and I came up positive also for CTS2157, CTS11796, and CTS12108, all possibly equivalent to L446.

I too am T-L466, although I was tested by Ftdna via the T project manager..Gareth Henson. Someone you need to contact once joining the T project.

T-L466 as advised by Mr. Henson and also on wiki T-M184 is basically british isles and eastern alps. This agrees with my ftdna haplo-origins as I only have Ireland and Italy.
T-L466 is nowhere to be seen in Iberia and the lowest I have found on any Ydna site is in La Rochelle France. It does arch in a northern path around to Romania. with low countries, British Isles, Germany, Scandinavia and Poland being in majority.

Since you are USA, their are 6 people in USA ranging from Washington, Maryland to south Carolina.......All those I contacted there are from Scotland, Ireland or wales only ( unusual that no English are among them )

On ysearch, there are 3 iberians with some markers as myself, but all come from galicia or cantabria...but none are L446 ydna

[Huracan]

I too am T-L466, although I was tested by Ftdna via the T project manager..Gareth Henson. Someone you need to contact once joining the T project.

T-L466 as advised by Mr. Henson and also on wiki T-M184 is basically british isles and eastern alps. This agrees with my ftdna haplo-origins as I only have Ireland and Italy.
T-L466 is nowhere to be seen in Iberia and the lowest I have found on any Ydna site is in La Rochelle France. It does arch in a northern path around to Romania. with low countries, British Isles, Germany, Scandinavia and Poland being in majority.

Since you are USA, their are 6 people in USA ranging from Washington, Maryland to south Carolina.......All those I contacted there are from Scotland, Ireland or wales only ( unusual that no English are among them )

On ysearch, there are 3 iberians with some markers as myself, but all come from galicia or cantabria...but none are L446 ydna

Nice to finally meet someone who is in the same haplogroup (and the same SNP) as me!
-And I just contacted Gareth from the FTDNA site, thanks for telling me.

I did notice how L446 is found in "Northwest Europe and Eastern Alps" as per wiki, I did not know that its Northwest European distribution was basically the British Isles. The other people on FTDNA who had L446+ (but were identified as L131) had their earliest paternal ancestors in (or with surnames originating from) England, Scotland, Germany, Austria, and Italy. My results on the list stick out like a sore thumb, haha. Yet I am very intrigued with the absence of L446 in Iberia and my supposed "Spanish" origins.

Now, my surname Fundora is considerably rare. It is currently found in its highest numbers in Cuba and the U.S. (Florida and New Jersey). Other places where Fundora is also found is in Puerto Rico and Mexico (supposedly), Venezuela, the Canary Islands, and maybe Spain. The proposed origins of Fundora are: (1) Catalán, coming from Fondera/Fundera (first recorded in 1657), but maybe ultimately hailing from France (Fonder, found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) and (2) Italian, coming from Fondra in Bergamo, Italy, which is pronounced Fundra in the local Bergamo dialect.

Unfortunately, my family does not have a paper trial beyond my earliest known paternal ancestor (Luis Fundora Miranda) and I cannot use the FTDNA haplo-origins or ySearch since I have yet to actually test myself with FTDNA.

[Sile]

Now, my surname Fundora is considerably rare. It is currently found in its highest numbers in Cuba and the U.S. (Florida and New Jersey). Other places where Fundora is also found is in Puerto Rico and Mexico (supposedly), Venezuela, the Canary Islands, and maybe Spain. The proposed origins of Fundora are: (1) Catalán, coming from Fondera/Fundera (first recorded in 1657), but maybe ultimately hailing from France (Fonder, found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) and (2) Italian, coming from Fondra in Bergamo, Italy, which is pronounced Fundra in the local Bergamo dialect.

Unfortunately, my family does not have a paper trial beyond my earliest known paternal ancestor (Luis Fundora Miranda) and I cannot use the FTDNA haplo-origins or ySearch since I have yet to actually test myself with FTDNA.

Since Bergamo is east lombard dialect with 350 years of venetian dialect thrown in, the words that come to mind are fondaor = welder
fondar = sink
fonde = foundations
fondo = deep
fondaria = foundry........but this is lombard word as venetian word for foundry is G(h)eto which comes from the word getar = pour .......as example, to pour as in for a mold for cannons

there is a town in bergamo called isola di fondra ..........so its very easy in italy for someone to be named after a town where they came from

There is no word I know of in the Italian dialect which comes to mind


Italian heraldry sites do say -

Origine del cognome Fondra, provenienza: Italia
Titolo	Conti - Nobili
Le memorie di questa famiglia ricordano come capo stipite delle due linee, milanese, cioè, e veneto-dalmata, un Tommaso de Fondra che da Sigismondo imperatore con diploma datato a Milano, fu nel 1413 creato barone dell'impero. Si stabilì in Venezia sul principio del secolo XVI, ove un Lorenzo fu dal doge Pasquale Cicogna fatto conte palatino. Il ... continua Family is recorded from 2 lines...........Milanese family, who's origins are venetian-dalmatian from Thomas of Fondra who Sigismund ( holy Roman Emperor) made a baron in 1413. other is , in the second part of the 16th Century, a Lorenzo ( de fondra) was made a count of the Palatin order after the death of the doge Pasquale Cicogna

fu = dead ......Latin word was quondam


The year above, 1413, is significant, due to Venetian ownership reached Verona in 1420. the East-lombard areas of Cremona, Brescia and Bergamo was fought for between Venetian and Milanese forces. The venetians having decisively beaten the Milanese took East-Lombard lands and held them from 1431 to ~1800.
So Thomas had already left the venetians much earlier.

[Sile]

there are 9 Fondra people in town called Ormelle, Veneto, in italy

http://www.mundia.com/it/Search/Resu...rthPlace=Italy

[Huracan]

Wow! Thank you very much, Siles! This will help a lot in my family research.

Also, when I first researched Fondra when I got into genealogy years ago, I found that the name of the hamlet comes from the Latin fundere, referring to the historical mining and foundry-working of the area. Below is what two sites can tell me about the history of Fondra:

1. From the actual comune's website:


Dati storici

Il comune unisce due centri di antica fondazione: soprattutto Fondra dove erano miniere di ferro, pirite, rame e metalli argentiferi. Del resto l'etimologia di Fondra sembra convalidare l'originaria esistenza delle fonderie che lavoravano i minerali estratti. Si ha notizia che nel '600 l'abilità dei valligiani era conosciuta ed apprezzata fuori provincia e all'estero, dove molti emigravano stagionalmente uniti in gruppi familiari: Paganoni, Michetti, Vitali, Scuri, ... E questo nonostante le minacce di Venezia, che per ragioni strategiche ostacolava l'emigrazione delle maestranze qualificate fuori dal suo territorio. Le contrade di Pusdosso, Comelli, Foppa e Forcella, che nelle decorazioni affrescate degli intonaci documentano il fastigio di un passato fiorente, erano allineate sulla "Via del Ferro", ancora leggibile in diversi tratti per l'ampiezza del tracciato e la regolare connessione dell'acciottolato.

Ritrovamenti archeologici

Nella primavera del 1999, durante i lavori di restauro della chiesa parrocchiale di Trabuchello sono state rinvenute una necropoli altomedioevale e una fortificazione civile di epoca tardo romana.
Gli scavi archeologici hanno portato alla luce nella navata centrale sei tombe, di cui una molto piccola, di forma antropoide, cioè con restringimento in corrispondenza della testa e degli arti inferiori .
Le tombe litiche sono delimitate da pietre poste di taglio e con la copertura in lastre di pietra locale.
Altri tre scheletri, probabilmente risalenti al XVII secolo, in cassa lignea e una cripta con funzione di ossario sono stati ritrovati ai piedi del presbiterio.
Al centro della chiesa è inoltre emersa anche una struttura muraria dalla larghezza di un metro collocabile tra il tardoantico e l’alto medioevo.
Dovrebbe trattarsi dei resti di un insediamento civile,forse una torre di guardia a forma rettangolare o comunque di una piccola fortificazione.
A supportare tale tesi sarebbe anche la posizione strategica del luogo dove sorge la chiesa , un dosso che domina un tratto di valle.
L’importanza dei ritrovamenti archeologici è notevole: conferma le ipotesi che l’Alta Valle Brembana fosse abitata fin dall’alto medioevo



2. From the Bergamo Province site:

Notizie Storiche di Isola di Fondra

Le alterne vicende della Valle Brembana investirono anche la Valfondra che sembra aver subito la dominazione di Etruschi, Romani e le successive invasioni barbariche. Con ogni probabilita', anticamente era abitata da popolazioni dedite alla pastorizia e all'attivita' mineraria. Solo del periodo dopo il 1000 si hanno notizie storiche documentate. Un atto del 1148 dice: "Sizio e Aspello di Fondra furono investiti dal Vescovo Gerardo di ogni diritto in Valle di Fondra, nel monte Scanicola fino a Branzi e valle del Leffo fino all'Arete e per la valle Sasso fino al fiume Brembo". Verso la fine dell'XI secolo infatti il Vescovo di Bergamo esercitava diritti feudali in quasi tutta la Valfondra. Lo statuto di Bergamo del 1331 fa riferimento all'accorpamento dei Comuni di Branzi, Valleve, Cambrembo, Foppolo e Carona con Fondra. Dopo il periodo tumultuoso delle Signorie, nel 1428 la Valle passa sotto la Repubblica Veneta. Nella relazione che il capitano Giovanni da Lezze invio' al Senato si legge: "La Valfondra e' una valle in mezzo ai monti e attraversata dal Brembo........ Le terre e le contrade sono divise in 3 parrocchie: S.Giovanni, S.Bartolomeo e S.Lorenzo. A quest'ultima appartengono Fondra, Soprafondra, Trabuchello, Forcella, Foppa, Via Piana, Cornelli e Posaldosso (Pusdosso). Esistono forni e fucine per la lavorazione del ferro estratto nelle miniere. Il ferro viene comodamente lavorato grazie alla presenza dell'acqua del fiume Brembo che peraltro viene usata per far funzionare mulini, peste del grano e segherie......." Con il tratto di Campoformio (1797) va a far parte della Repubblica Cisalpina. Il regime napoleonico porto' un certo risveglio nazionale e il riordino dell'amministrazione, della giustizia e della legislazione. Successivamente il Congresso di Vienna segno' il passaggio della Lombardia all'Austria. La Valfondra divenne parte del distretto di Piazza Brembana. Infine nel 1859, con la seconda guerra d'indipendenza, entro' a far parte del Regno d'Italia e ne segui' le vicende.

Antiche vie di comunicazione

Anticamente la strada di collegamento della Valfondra (un ramo della Via del Ferro) con la Piana di Lenna e con la via Mercatorum, era una mulattiera che saliva dall'attuale Lago di Moio fino a Bordogna. Qui, in frazione Forcella, superava il passo per poi transitare nel centro di Fondra in riva sinistra e scavalcare il Brembo alcune centinaia di metri a monte dell'abitato su una passerella che nel 1715 venne sostituita da un manufatto di pietra, in stile romano , chiamato il Ponte dei Canali. La strada poi proseguiva per Trabuchello e per tutti gli altri centri della Valfondra e si collegava con quegli itinerari che attraverso i passi delle Orobie (Tartano, Venina e Publino) portavano in Valtellina. Nel 1834, ad opera degli austriaci venne costruita una carreggiabile tra Lenna e Branzi che correva sulla destra orografica della valle. La realizzazione della nuova strada e la costruzione di un ponte nel centro di Fondra (1805) portarono all'abbandono del Ponte dei Canali che fu presto soggetto a degrado. Nel 1998 il ponte e' stato restaurato con il ripristino delle spallette.

Le Miniere

L'attivita' mineraria fu per molti secoli una tra le principali risorse economiche di Fondra, come ne attesta il nome che deriva dal latino "fundere". L'escavazione del rame e del ferro si reputa sia iniziata in tempi antichissimi. Che in epoca romana fossero praticamente cava di rame o di calcopirite, un minerale di rame, nella terra bergamasca lo attestano Plinio il Vecchio, e il minerologo Giorgio Agricola. Che alcune piccole miniere si trovassero nel territorio di Fondra, lo scrive il Mairone da Ponte: "Quivi e' dove ammirasi grandi antiche e abbondanti escavazioni e grandi artificiali spaccature di montagna. Esse vanno attribuite a lavori praticativi al tempo che la patria apparteneva al dominio romano ". Durante la dominazione veneta Fondra era sicuramente un centro minerario importante con diverse miniere di ferro e gli "assali" (barre di ferro), informa il Lezze, venivano vendute a Genova, Milano e Bergamo. Nelle miniere si lavorava da ottobre a maggio perche' d'estate l'eccessiva umidita' e le acque che coprivano il fondo rendevano impossibile la presenza dei minatori. E' certo che nel 1600 a Fondra erano attive 17 miniere, delle quali 3 di piombo e 14 di ferro, mentre Trabuchello contava 2 minieredi ferro. All'inizionel '700 l'industria mineraria entro' in crisi, specialmente nelle vallate Oltre la Goggia, anche a causa dei particolari oneri fiscali a cui era soggetta e della mancanza di legname per alimentare i forni. Nel 1742 risultavano concesse sul nostro teritorio 4 miniere di ferro a Trabuchello e 5 a Fondra, ma il vicario delle miniere confessava di non saper quali fossero funzionanti e quali abbandonate. In particolare nel '700 e nei primi decenni del 1800 il ferro che veniva estratto era lavorato in piccole officine lungo il Brembo per la produzione dei chiodi.


A Venetian origin (subsequently emigrating from Venice or Genoa) for Fundora and my earliest paternal family is consistent with the historical Italian immigration to Cuba. The first Italians came to Cuba with the Spanish conquistadores after Columbus discovered it in 1492. Most were missionaries and the rest were soldiers of fortune. It can be assumed that most of these Italians were Genoese due to Columbus being Genoese and their favorable position with the Spaniards (especially since in 1528 its new constitution made it a satellite of the Spanish Empire). Later, in 1605, shipwrecked Italian sailors (Genoese and Venetian) founded Mantua, Cuba on the far west side of the island (Pinar del Rio Province) - interestingly, there are localities in this area named Fundora, including a known tobacco farm owned by a Fundora family in Dimas, not too far away from Mantua, that was bought in 1958 and made the basis for the U.S. Taino Cigar company. The only other Italian immigration movements occurred in the mid-1850s, which is too late in terms of my family records. Another possible route is from the Canary Islands. Conquistador Alonso Fernández de Lugo "oversaw extension immigration to Tenerife and La Palma during a short period from the late 1490s to the 1520s from mainland Europe, and immigrants included Castilians, Portuguese, Italians, Catalans, Basques, and Flemings. At subsequent judicial enquiries, Fernández de Lugo was accused of favoring Genoese and Portuguese immigrants over Castilians." (wiki)

On another note, does this mean that, due to the distribution of L446, the French-Catalán origin for Fundora is less likely?

[Huracan]

I have also been wondering, what are origins of L446? If you know of them. Would it be associated with remnants of Neolithic settlers coming into Europe or would have it been introduced from the Balkans as the Indo-Europeans (R1b) nestled there for a long time and then swept westward, possibly bringing with them a minority of Neolithic lineages with T among them? (The latter idea was inspired by the "Genetic Histories" articles on this site)

[Sile]

Wow! Thank you very much, Siles! This will help a lot in my family research.

Also, when I first researched Fondra when I got into genealogy years ago, I found that the name of the hamlet comes from the Latin fundere, referring to the historical mining and foundry-working of the area. Below is what two sites can tell me about the history of Fondra:

A Venetian origin (subsequently emigrating from Venice or Genoa) for Fundora and my earliest paternal family is consistent with the historical Italian immigration to Cuba. The first Italians came to Cuba with the Spanish conquistadores after Columbus discovered it in 1492. Most were missionaries and the rest were soldiers of fortune. It can be assumed that most of these Italians were Genoese due to Columbus being Genoese and their favorable position with the Spaniards (especially since in 1528 its new constitution made it a satellite of the Spanish Empire). Later, in 1605, shipwrecked Italian sailors (Genoese and Venetian) founded Mantua, Cuba on the far west side of the island (Pinar del Rio Province) - interestingly, there are localities in this area named Fundora, including a known tobacco farm owned by a Fundora family in Dimas, not too far away from Mantua, that was bought in 1958 and made the basis for the U.S. Taino Cigar company. The only other Italian immigration movements occurred in the mid-1850s, which is too late in terms of my family records. Another possible route is from the Canary Islands. Conquistador Alonso Fernández de Lugo "oversaw extension immigration to Tenerife and La Palma during a short period from the late 1490s to the 1520s from mainland Europe, and immigrants included Castilians, Portuguese, Italians, Catalans, Basques, and Flemings. At subsequent judicial enquiries, Fernández de Lugo was accused of favoring Genoese and Portuguese immigrants over Castilians." (wiki)

On another note, does this mean that, due to the distribution of L446, the French-Catalán origin for Fundora is less likely?

most likely Genoese, as they became close to castilian Spain after losing their East med. empire after the 5th Venetian war and the ottoman take over in 1473 of the Genoese black sea holding of caffa ( kaffa, Crimea). The Genoese basically became the bankers of the Castilian empire as Catalans and Basques ( who where the best seafarers apart form the Portuguese in Iberia) where very much prevented from going to the new world by the Castilian Cortes.

Your ancestor might have been Venetian, but likelyhood is that they would have gone to Genoa for adventure.

and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T


If your family was in a hamlet/borough ( Borgo) then they would have been artisans of some sort and paid relatively well by the noble who ran that Borgo. This Venetian Noble would have on sold his goods to the Venetian Guilds , who sold the goods to the foreign buyers in the auction houses. no Noble was to be involved in any guild for punishment of death.

[Sile]

I have also been wondering, what are origins of L446? If you know of them. Would it be associated with remnants of Neolithic settlers coming into Europe or would have it been introduced from the Balkans as the Indo-Europeans (R1b) nestled there for a long time and then swept westward, possibly bringing with them a minority of Neolithic lineages with T among them? (The latter idea was inspired by the "Genetic Histories" articles on this site)

I see a south caucasus, caspian sea ( south and east side) as the origin of L446. But L446 entered Europe very early, before R group. They most likely came with G . The alps has a high % of T ( and L ).

[Sile]

there are 9 Fondra people in town called Ormelle, Veneto, in italy

http://www.mundia.com/it/Search/Resu...rthPlace=Italy

I have no Fondra surname in all the veneto, birth, death and Marriages registrars from 1800 to 1820 ..........but at this time East lombardy was under a different zone of french rule. ( I have no access to that ).........but once Austria took over Veneto and Lombardy in 1820, they realigned the borders to what we currently have in north Italy today.
So East lombardy went to Lombardy and the friuli border was moved westward to the Livenza river. So these Fondra people in Ormelle Veneto could have moved after 1820.

Ormelle is basically eastern Veneto near Oderzo.

[Huracan]

...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...

I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

• Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
• Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
• Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
• Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
• Germany (Surname: Rauch)
• Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
• Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
• Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
• Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
• Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
• Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
• Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
• Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
• Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
• Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
• Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
• Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
• Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
• Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
• Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
• Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)

Predicted L131+:

• Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
• Sicily, Italy (?)
• Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
• Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
• Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
• Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
• Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
• County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
• Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
• Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)

Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):

• KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
• VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
• VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
• Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
• Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
• Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
• FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
• Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
• NC, USA (Surname: Knox)

I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

[Sile]

This, Pinar del Rio Province, means - Canal of fish fins.
Rio is a boatable canal/river, if it was unboatable it would be a Fos.

Unsure if the Genoese used the word Rio

[Huracan]

Also, I had assumed that Fondera was a non-Catalán surname because it means "barkeeper" or "innkeeper" in Castilian (Spanish). Joseph Fondera could have easily been a Castilian whose name was recorded differently and had migrated to Cataluña in the 1670s and 80s.

[Huracan]

This, Pinar del Rio Province, means - Canal of fish fins.
Rio is a boatable canal/river, if it was unboatable it would be a Fos.

Unsure if the Genoese used the word Rio

At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as Nuevas Filipinas or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed Pinar del Río which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.

However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.

[Sile]

At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as Nuevas Filipinas or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed Pinar del Río which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.

However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.

yes
Pin = Pine

But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect

The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.

[Huracan]

Originally Posted by Sile
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...



I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

• Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
• Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
• Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
• Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
• Germany (Surname: Rauch)
• Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
• Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
• Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
• Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
• Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
• Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
• Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
• Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
• Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
• Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
• Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
• Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
• Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
• Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
• Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
• Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)

Predicted L131+:

• Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
• Sicily, Italy (?)
• Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
• Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
• Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
• Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
• Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
• County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
• Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
• Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)

Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):

• KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
• VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
• VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
• Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
• Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
• Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
• FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
• Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
• NC, USA (Surname: Knox)

I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

[Huracan]

yes
Pin = Pine

But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect

The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.

Oh wow, I will take that into consideration.