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Thread: Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    thats interesting, because polish scholars present this as the goths land over time which are near by.........maybe the goths infiltrated into prussians tribes

    i cannot remember the order, but I think it was
    orange
    blue
    yellow
    and last green

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
    This map shows cultures at 200-300 AD. Maps about Baltic tribes show situation at 1200 AD. A thousand years later.

    There are no written records to tell us what happened with Goths of Pomerania. All we know that most them went down south to the Crimea region around year 300 AD.
    Future genetic research might shine some light on early demographics of this land.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This map shows cultures at 200-300 AD. Maps about Baltic tribes show situation at 1200 AD. A thousand years later.

    There are no written records to tell us what happened with Goths of Pomerania. All we know that most them went down south to the Crimea region around year 300 AD.
    Future genetic research might shine some light on early demographics of this land.
    i did'nt know you could read polish

    But as per all migrations , some number of people always stayed behind to maintain some of that ethnic tribe..............it was not like some type of " red-indian, pack up teepee and go to the next hunting ground" scenario
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    i did'nt know you could read polish

    But as per all migrations , some number of people always stayed behind to maintain some of that ethnic tribe..............it was not like some type of " red-indian, pack up teepee and go to the next hunting ground" scenario
    Yep, I'm Polish and Canadian.

    Some Goths that stayed behind definitely mixed with Balts and Slavs with time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This map shows cultures at 200-300 AD. Maps about Baltic tribes show situation at 1200 AD. A thousand years later.

    There are no written records to tell us what happened with Goths of Pomerania. All we know that most them went down south to the Crimea region around year 300 AD.
    Future genetic research might shine some light on early demographics of this land.
    There is no written records, but there is heavy archaeology, written in the ground, of what centuries later became Poland. As clear, as the wagon trail to Oregon still has from busted wagons wheels buried on the ground. And as for the "East Germanic" or "Polish" Goths, there is enough digs and significant and clear signs within to see, that between the IV and the VI century the material culture that hitherto was employed in, then Poland, for reasons unknown came to appear upstream towards the Ukrajnian and Rumanian river valleys. But questions arise, WHAT were these Goths really, BEFORE the time they arrived on the gates of the Eastern Roman Empire and History? How many have been Balts, Slavs, Rutenians, Sarmatians or "Eastern Germanics"? Goths must have been at the time like the feared multi-ethnic Soviet Army to Roman Empire citizens. And from it, the consequent question... what were the local Goths who remained left behind before becoming Poles... besides those not becoming Gepids after and follow in the war path? We all know what the Goths were during their heyday, ample descriptions and rich records of their Federations and the MULTIPLE PEOPLES who composed their Nation train, as we all know what they became once settled within the Italian and Iberian peninsulas. And if so for the Goths...WHAT or who were those becoming "Slavic" Poles after..... just because which language they switched on to speak? The truth of that land is that most cultures it ever had, move over and leave to somewhere else. Is it so inhospitable, or its strategic position between greater cultural blocks makes it so "risky exposed"? The Poles tribes (and those speaking in it after) became equal to Poland_nation, wherever their borders may shift them, nation is equal to Poland language is equal to land and citizens.... Ethnicity and Genetics seem trivial thus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavrrit View Post
    There is no written records, but there is heavy archaeology, written in the ground, of what centuries later became Poland. As clear, as the wagon trail to Oregon still has from busted wagons wheels buried on the ground. And as for the "East Germanic" or "Polish" Goths, there is enough digs and significant and clear signs within to see, that between the IV and the VI century the material culture that hitherto was employed in, then Poland, for reasons unknown came to appear upstream towards the Ukrajnian and Rumanian river valleys. But questions arise, WHAT were these Goths really, BEFORE the time they arrived on the gates of the Eastern Roman Empire and History? How many have been Balts, Slavs, Rutenians, Sarmatians or "Eastern Germanics"? Goths must have been at the time like the feared multi-ethnic Soviet Army to Roman Empire citizens. And from it, the consequent question... what were the local Goths who remained left behind before becoming Poles... besides those not becoming Gepids after and follow in the war path? We all know what the Goths were during their heyday, ample descriptions and rich records of their Federations and the MULTIPLE PEOPLES who composed their Nation train, as we all know what they became once settled within the Italian and Iberian peninsulas. And if so for the Goths...WHAT or who were those becoming "Slavic" Poles after..... just because which language they switched on to speak? The truth of that land is that most cultures it ever had, move over and leave to somewhere else. Is it so inhospitable, or its strategic position between greater cultural blocks makes it so "risky exposed"? The Poles tribes (and those speaking in it after) became equal to Poland_nation, wherever their borders may shift them, nation is equal to Poland language is equal to land and citizens.... Ethnicity and Genetics seem trivial thus
    To be honest, I'm not really sure what your point is (complicated situation?), and what "equal to" mean in these contexts?

    .. besides those not becoming Gepids after and follow in the war path? We all know what the Goths were during their heyday, ample descriptions and rich records of their Federations and the MULTIPLE PEOPLES
    It is possible that Goths, at the end of their "trip" were a multi ethnic construct. All we know so far that their East Germanic language was a dominant one and that they started their voyage in Pomerania. However archeology of "Poland" tells us that at this time there were two distinct cultures living side by side. Literally side by side, we can find two villages close by of different cultural characters. Therefore it might mean that Goths didn't mix much with natives on their way South.

    There is also a question who the heck were Veneti described by ancient historians as people of this area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    To be honest, I'm not really sure what your point is (complicated situation?), and what "equal to" mean in these contexts?


    It is possible that Goths, at the end of their "trip" were a multi ethnic construct. All we know so far that their East Germanic language was a dominant one and that they started their voyage in Pomerania. However archeology of "Poland" tells us that at this time there were two distinct cultures living side by side. Literally side by side, we can find two villages close by of different cultural characters. Therefore it might mean that Goths didn't mix much with natives on their way South.

    There is also a question who the heck were Veneti described by ancient historians as people of this area.
    I recently read ( i will find the link ) that the Aestii and the Venedi are the same tribes, same coastal lands, same amber gatherers but written differently by different greek and Roman ancient historians.

    And the theory of aestii being estonians is a myth...........these aestii eventually became part of the baltic-prussians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I recently read ( i will find the link ) that the Aestii and the Venedi are the same tribes, same coastal lands, same amber gatherers but written differently by different greek and Roman ancient historians.

    And the theory of aestii being estonians is a myth...........these aestii eventually became part of the baltic-prussians
    Jordanes wrote that Slavs ware under the name of Venedi in ancient sources. Tacitus placed them on east side of Vistula River.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Jordanes wrote that Slavs ware under the name of Venedi in ancient sources. Tacitus placed them on east side of Vistula River.
    Everything I've read by polish historians was inconclusive. They could have been Slavic, Baltic, Celtic (name Kalisz, amber traders, is most likely of celtic origin) or other tribes related to Dacian or Slavic tribes who don't exist anymore. They could have been Germanic, although I would guess that germanic speech would have been recognized by contemporary historians back then.
    If Venedi have been located on west side of Vistula they surely were assimilated by germanic tribes, if they were not germanic to start with. Last germanic tribe located around Kalisz was Vandals.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it all depends on the Przeworsk-culture and who the Vandali/Vandili were;

    Tacitus (Ger.II) refers to the Germanic ancestors/origins to be Mannus son of Tuisto (God) and father of the Ingaevones, Istaevones and Herminones (confederations/multiple tribes) and Pomponius-Mela (III/XXXII) writes 'In eo sunt Cimbri et Teutoni, ultra ultimi Germaniae Hermiones' that the Herminones were dwelling on the extreme boundary of Germania; It was Plinius (IV/XXVIII) that added two more branches as Germanic i.e. the Vandili [Burgundiones, Varini, Carini, Gutones] and the Bastarnae; The Gutones (Goths) are known by manuscripts to have spoken a Germanic language and Jordanes (IV/XXVI) mentions that the Goths from Scandza subjugated the Vandals when they reached the other shore;

    Ptolemy (III/V) added that the Gythones dwelled below the Venedae; Ptolemy, Tacitus and Plinius all describe the Venedae/Venedi to be a vast peoples and locate then on/around the Baltic; And Jordanes is very clear (V/XXXIV) that the Venedi are the ancestors of the Sclaveni and Antes and in his time (6th cen AD) occupied a large area between Vistula, Dniester and Dnieper;

    Germanic and Slavic (Venedi/Wends) are easily determined; What remains a mystery is what happened to the Sarmatians especially between Dniester and Dnieper;

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I think it all depends on the Przeworsk-culture and who the Vandali/Vandili were;

    Tacitus (Ger.II) refers to the Germanic ancestors/origins to be Mannus son of Tuisto (God) and father of the Ingaevones, Istaevones and Herminones (confederations/multiple tribes) and Pomponius-Mela (III/XXXII) writes 'In eo sunt Cimbri et Teutoni, ultra ultimi Germaniae Hermiones' that the Herminones were dwelling on the extreme boundary of Germania; It was Plinius (IV/XXVIII) that added two more branches as Germanic i.e. the Vandili [Burgundiones, Varini, Carini, Gutones] and the Bastarnae; The Gutones (Goths) are known by manuscripts to have spoken a Germanic language and Jordanes (IV/XXVI) mentions that the Goths from Scandza subjugated the Vandals when they reached the other shore;

    Ptolemy (III/V) added that the Gythones dwelled below the Venedae; Ptolemy, Tacitus and Plinius all describe the Venedae/Venedi to be a vast peoples and locate then on/around the Baltic; And Jordanes is very clear (V/XXXIV) that the Venedi are the ancestors of the Sclaveni and Antes and in his time (6th cen AD) occupied a large area between Vistula, Dniester and Dnieper;

    Germanic and Slavic (Venedi/Wends) are easily determined; What remains a mystery is what happened to the Sarmatians especially between Dniester and Dnieper;
    Ptolemy tribes of voltoni and ossosi are in venedi coastal lands........do you have anything on these?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I'd like to say a few words on the Venedi (Baltic Venedi, to specify that, because in the past, people here and elsewhere mixed them up with the Gaulish Veneti and the Adriatic Veneti, which were unrelated): I know that the identification of the Venedi as far as ethnicity and language goes has gone forth and back, but I'd like to point out some of the pieces of evidence:

    - Ptolemy records the Venedi at the Baltic Sea coast, in the area of former East Prussia and Lithuania. He mentions two undoubtably Baltic tribes, the Sudovians and the Galindians, which are attested to live in the same area a millennium later.
    - Tacitus describes the Venedi as sedentary and culturally similar to the Germanic peoples (as opposed to the nomadic Sarmatians), but with a distinct language (as opposed to the Bastarnae, whom describes as having a Germanic language).

    If we take these as facts, then its probable that the Venedi spoke a Baltic language, or, barring that, some form of more undifferentiated Balto-Slavic (its not improbable given the archaic status of Proto-Slavic at that time). Its certain that they didn't speak a Germanic language, and its improbable, given their location at the coast that they were Slavic.

    I might add, Ptolemy possibly mentions of the later Slavic tribes, the Severians (as Savari) but he places them further east, and also further south than the Venedi or the Guthones (Goths).

    As for the fate of the eastern Germanic peoples, I think the linguistic evidence is fairly unambiguous here: the speakers of Proto-Slavic had extensive contact with speakers of Germanic languages (first Proto-Germanic, later East Germanic), and it also seems likely to me that the Slavs absorbed a large number of Germanic-speakers during the Migration Period.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    For the original question of the thread title, wether Poland was more Germanic or more Slavic, I would say the answer should be correctly "both": its just the matter of the timing.

    Before the Migration Period, the area of modern Poland was predominantly inhabited by Germanic-speaking tribes, such as the Rugians, Burgundians and Vandals. The southwest of modern-day Poland also had a vestigial Celtic element in it, see the tribal name "Lugii", as well as place names such as "Calisia", now Kalisz, and "Lugidunum" (perhaps today Legnica, but that identification is far from certain).

    During the Migration Period, the Germanic tribes (in particular the Eastern Germanic ones, including the Goths and the Vandals) entered the territory of the Roman empire and seized - with various successes - parts of it (Vandals in North Africa, Goths in Italy and Spain, Burgundians in Gaul, etc.). In my opinion, its doubtful that the tribes moved as a whole, its more probable that mainly the upper elements of the tribes moved and that a chunk of the population stayed behind and was absorbed by the Slavic tribes in the subsequent centuries (the linguistic evidence, in my opinion, speaks for this). By the 7th century, Slavic tribes inhabited the largest part of former Germanic-speaking Europe, as far west as the modern area of eastern Schleswig-Holstein in the north (bear in mind that the city of Lübeck - one the cities of the Hanseatic league during the Middle Ages, was originally founded by Slavs) to the Elbe and Thuringian Saale rivers in the south. Its clear that before the Eastern Frankish realm (its iffy to genuinely "Germany" at that point already) expanded eastwards, the area of modern eastern Germany (note: I'm talking about the area of the former DDR here, not pre-1945 eastern Germany) was firmly Slavic-speaking. So from that perspective there can be no doubt that the area of modern Poland was predominantly Slavic at the same time. But, wether it was entirely "Polish" or not is a different question, in my opinion.

    It must be argued that a distinct Polish identity/ethnicity certainly could not have exist before the Migration Period. And while speakers of Proto-Slavic no doubt existed (roughly in an area of what today is southeastern Poland, Belarus and the northwestern Ukraine), but we do not know what they called themselves, at least the name "Slav" is unrecorded by Greek or Roman sources before the Migration Period (yes, Jordanes claims that the Slavs were previously called Venedi, but bear in mind his own work dates from the Migration Period). The word 'Slav' itself is derived from the Slavic word for 'speech' or 'language' (see Russian "слова"/"slova", Polish "słowo"), contrasted with 'mute' or 'non-speaker' (Russian "немой"/"nemoj", Polish "niemy"), which was the exonym used by the Slavic peoples for Germanic speakers (hence, in the modern Slavic languages, the name for "Germany" is derived from this word). If you consider this, it stands to reason that the "Slavic" identity (distinct from the speakers of Proto-Slavic, think of the distinction between "Briton" and "Welsh" here for an analogy) was likely a new construct that emerged in the Migration Period.

    Another issue that should be brought up - both with regard for the origins of Poland, and from the perspective of interaction with what was to become Germany, is the issue of religion: the Slavic tribes at the start of the Middle Ages were originally polytheistic (as were the Baltic tribes), while the Franks were Catholics from the 5th century onward. Sadly, you might say that it is no coincidence that the German for 'slave', "Sklave" is similar to the name "Σκλαβηνοι" (Sklavēnoi), used first by the Byzantines for the Slavic peoples during the Migration Period. Thus, the Medieval eastwards expansion of East Francia/Germany into Slavic territories was partially driven (it wasn't the only factor, there were also internal factors of early Medieval East Francia that contributed to this) by what you might consider a 'loophole' in the medieval Christian identity, in the way that it was seen as acceptable (even "necessary") to conquer polytheistic peoples (see also Norther Crusades, against the Baltic peoples, in particular the Prussians). This is - somewhat cynically - one of the factors in the Spanish conquests over the native peoples in the Americas. Therefore, what ultimately spared the area that was to become the nucleus of Poland (the Czechs/Bohemia should be brought up here, but that decisively leads offtopic ) from a similar fate as the other Slavic tribes in Central Europe was the adoption of Christianity: the key issue for the origin of Poland is certainly the conversion of Mieshko I. (in 966 AD) to western Christianity / Catholicism, as opposed to the Orthodox church of the Byzantine Empire that adopted by the eastern Slavic peoples (its technically incorrect though to geniunely talk about "Catholicism" before the Church schism).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    What remains a mystery is what happened to the Sarmatians especially between Dniester and Dnieper;
    This is an interesting point, I would like to point out that some of the Sarmatians - the Alans (or Alanoi, to the Greeks) moved along with the Germanic peoples during the Migration period, the Alans moved together with the Suebi into western Iberia. Purportedly, the origin of the Portuguese town "Alenquer" is "Church of the Alani".
    Last edited by Taranis; 13-03-14 at 22:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    For the original question of the thread title, wether Poland was more Germanic or more Slavic, I would say the answer should be correctly "both": its just the matter of the timing.

    Before the Migration Period, the area of modern Poland was predominantly inhabited by Germanic-speaking tribes, such as the Rugians, Burgundians and Vandals. The southwest of modern-day Poland also had a vestigial Celtic element in it, see the tribal name "Lugii", as well as place names such as "Calisia", now Kalisz, and "Lugidunum" (perhaps today Legnica, but that identification is far from certain).

    During the Migration Period, the Germanic tribes (in particular the Eastern Germanic ones, including the Goths and the Vandals) entered the territory of the Roman empire and seized - with various successes - parts of it (Vandals in North Africa, Goths in Italy and Spain, Burgundians in Gaul, etc.). In my opinion, its doubtful that the tribes moved as a whole, its more probable that mainly the upper elements of the tribes moved and that a chunk of the population stayed behind and was absorbed by the Slavic tribes in the subsequent centuries (the linguistic evidence, in my opinion, speaks for this). By the 7th century, Slavic tribes inhabited the largest part of former Germanic-speaking Europe, as far west as the modern area of eastern Schleswig-Holstein in the north (bear in mind that the city of Lübeck - one the cities of the Hanseatic league during the Middle Ages, was originally founded by Slavs) to the Elbe and Thuringian Saale rivers in the south. Its clear that before the Eastern Frankish realm (its iffy to genuinely "Germany" at that point already) expanded eastwards, the area of modern eastern Germany (note: I'm talking about the area of the former DDR here, not pre-1945 eastern Germany) was firmly Slavic-speaking. So from that perspective there can be no doubt that the area of modern Poland was predominantly Slavic at the same time. But, wether it was entirely "Polish" or not is a different question, in my opinion.

    It must be argued that a distinct Polish identity/ethnicity certainly could not have exist before the Migration Period. And while speakers of Proto-Slavic no doubt existed (roughly in an area of what today is southeastern Poland, Belarus and the northwestern Ukraine), but we do not know what they called themselves, at least the name "Slav" is unrecorded by Greek or Roman sources before the Migration Period (yes, Jordanes claims that the Slavs were previously called Venedi, but bear in mind his own work dates from the Migration Period). The word 'Slav' itself is derived from the Slavic word for 'speech' or 'language' (see Russian "слова"/"slova", Polish "słowo"), contrasted with 'mute' or 'non-speaker' (Russian "немой"/"nemoj", Polish "niemy"), which was the exonym used by the Slavic peoples for Germanic speakers (hence, in the modern Slavic languages, the name for "Germany" is derived from this word). If you consider this, it stands to reason that the "Slavic" identity (distinct from the speakers of Proto-Slavic, think of the distinction between "Briton" and "Welsh" here for an analogy) was likely a new construct that emerged in the Migration Period.

    Another issue that should be brought up - both with regard for the origins of Poland, and from the perspective of interaction with what was to become Germany, is the issue of religion: the Slavic tribes at the start of the Middle Ages were originally polytheistic (as were the Baltic tribes), while the Franks were Catholics from the 5th century onward. Sadly, you might say that it is no coincidence that the German for 'slave', "Sklave" is similar to the name "Σκλαβηνοι" (Sklavēnoi), used first by the Byzantines for the Slavic peoples during the Migration Period. Thus, the Medieval eastwards expansion of East Francia/Germany into Slavic territories was partially driven (it wasn't the only factor, there were also internal factors of early Medieval East Francia that contributed to this) by what you might consider a 'loophole' in the medieval Christian identity, in the way that it was seen as acceptable (even "necessary") to conquer polytheistic peoples (see also Norther Crusades, against the Baltic peoples, in particular the Prussians). This is - somewhat cynically - one of the factors in the Spanish conquests over the native peoples in the Americas. Therefore, what ultimately spared the area that was to become the nucleus of Poland (the Czechs/Bohemia should be brought up here, but that decisively leads offtopic ) from a similar fate as the other Slavic tribes in Central Europe was the adoption of Christianity: the key issue for the origin of Poland is certainly the conversion of Mieshko I. (in 966 AD) to western Christianity / Catholicism, as opposed to the Orthodox church of the Byzantine Empire that adopted by the eastern Slavic peoples (its technically incorrect though to geniunely talk about "Catholicism" before the Church schism).



    This is an interesting point, I would like to point out that some of the Sarmatians - the Alans (or Alanoi, to the Greeks) moved along with the Germanic peoples during the Migration period, the Alans moved together with the Suebi into western Iberia. Purportedly, the origin of the Portuguese town "Alenquer" is "Church of the Alani".
    Current slav papers put the slav origin in what they call the Ukraine-Belarusia Polesine ( basically a heavy forest wet area).
    Below the Fenni as per ptolemy

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    I think most genetics of people from Poland,at least of women,is not Slavic.
    Maybe most of the genetics there is from Baltic people,who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Originally Posted by LeBrokThe best example is Mazovians (Mazowszanie) who didn't call themselves polish till pretty much 16th century.



    What is this statement based on?.
    Here is an interesting discussion about etymology of name Polska (Poland).

    http://archeowiesci.pl/2011/05/31/sk...-nazwa-polski/

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Here is an interesting discussion about etymology of name Polska (Poland).

    http://archeowiesci.pl/2011/05/31/sk...-nazwa-polski/
    A translation would be helpful to me
    thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Here is an interesting discussion about etymology of name Polska (Poland).

    http://archeowiesci.pl/2011/05/31/sk...-nazwa-polski/
    My opinion is that the name "Poland"/Polska meant something like "plain land" in Proto-Slavic. Interestingly, the element *pol- actually has also a cognate in Germanic, namely in the name "Westphalia" (Westfalen), which basically means 'western plain'.

    There's also the name "Pommerania" (Polish "Pomorze", German "Pommern"), which in Slavic has a similar etymology as the Celtic "Aremorica" ('land near the sea').

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    A translation would be helpful to me
    thanks
    Sorry, try Google translator. I got this link specially for Matbir. In this discussion 2-3 professional historians and 1 archeologist of early middle age take part. Listening to this is like being at archeological site and eavesdropping on top archeologists arguing about discoveries. It doesn't get better than this to feel closer to ancient times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    My opinion is that the name "Poland"/Polska meant something like "plain land" in Proto-Slavic. Interestingly, the element *pol- actually has also a cognate in Germanic, namely in the name "Westphalia" (Westfalen), which basically means 'western plain'.

    There's also the name "Pommerania" (Polish "Pomorze", German "Pommern"), which in Slavic has a similar etymology as the Celtic "Aremorica" ('land near the sea').
    Supposedly naming land after field (Pole) is common in Europe. Similar etymology happened to names Campania and Champagnia, I've heard.

    Linguistically, I suspect, that name "Pole" came from word "polesie". Polesie is descriptionary word to explain where forest ends. Po - means after, lesie - means forest in locative case.
    This area in Europe was covered with dense forest, so it was very useful to have a word describing a place at the end of forest for these people. There are still existing locations named just "Polesie". Also little meadow in the middle of forest is called "polana", and it doesn't mean agrarian land. Just place with no woods, well at least in today's meaning.
    I assumed that, in some cases the word "polesie", broke to "pole-sie", and got shortened to just "pole", with meaning empty ground, place with no trees, and agrarian field.



    One of the points I was trying to make at the beginning of the thread was that name Polska (in polish) is only attested around 15 century and not necessarily used to describe the full extent of first known "Poland", the land of Mieszko. For first 4 centuries we only know this name in latin, Polonia, Polania, Polenia, even Bulonia, never as Polska. And in this form only describing land of Polans, the tribe of Polanie, and never the whole dominion of Mieszko or Chrobry. I think we have to wait till 13 century to start to see Polonia used for the whole country, and this without Silesia and West Pomerania, which were separated since.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 21-03-14 at 23:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Supposedly naming land after field (Pole) is common in Europe. Similar etymology happened to names Compania and Champagnia, I've heard.

    Linguistically, I suspect, that name "Pole" came from word "polesie". Polesie is descriptionary word to explain where forest ends. Po - means after, lesie - means forest in locative case.
    This area in Europe was covered with dense forest, so it was very useful to have a word describing a place at the end of forest for these people. There are still existing locations named just "Polesie". Also little meadow in the middle of forest is called "polana", and it doesn't mean agrarian land. Just place with no woods, well at least in today's meaning.
    I assumed that, in some cases the word "polesie", broke to "pole-sie", and got shortened to just "pole", with meaning empty ground, place with no trees, and agrarian field.



    One of the points I was trying to make at the beginning of the thread was that name Polska (in polish) is only attested around 15 century and not necessarily used to describe the full extent of first known "Poland", the land of Mieszko. For first 4 centuries we only know this name in latin, Polonia, Polania, Polenia, even Bulonia, never as Polska. And in this form only describing land of Polans, the tribe of Polanie, and never the whole dominion of Mieszko or Chrobry. I think we have to wait till 13 century to start to see Polonia used for the whole country, and this without Silesia and West Pomerania, which were separated since.
    As recently stated by slavic historians and archeologists.............the slavs originate from
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polesia

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    Slav origins

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    slav movements as per archeology
    Prague archaeological culture expanded from western Ukraine and eastern Poland to eastern Germany and lower Danube. The map from the academy of sciences as per archaeological evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    As recently stated by slavic historians and archeologists.............the slavs originate from
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polesia
    It is most likely place. There is also a question whether all the Slavs originated there, or was there another area close by too, implicated in slavic expansion?

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    The Slavs that reached the Elbe (i.e. all the Slavs east of the Elbe and Saxon limes) were known as the Polabian Slavs (Obotrites/Veleti[WILZEN]/Sorbs); Polabian stemming from the Slavic etymology of the Elbe/Albis river (Łaba); The Sorbs in the Lausitz are still around as such existing; However while Polabian, Kashubian and Polish are collective Lechitic (Lechisch) languages - Sorbish diverges from these; What is also interesting are the accounts of Saxo Grammaticus and Adam von Bremen;

    Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII

    Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

    Adam von Bremen does not use the term Wenden/Winden he collectively uses the term Winuler (for all Slavs) and clearly states that these Winuler stem from the Wandalen(Vandals); We also find amongst the Obotrite (Polabian) Slavs the Warnen which used to be an old Germanic peoples of the same vicinity (Ptolemy II/X) and who Plinius (IV/XXVIII) associated with the Vandals; The interesting part about Winuler/Wandalen is that these terminologies also appear much earlier in the Origins saga of the Langobarden as Winiler in conflict with the Wandalen/Vandals;
    http://postimg.org/image/qv7svsri5/

    So apart from the Venedae and the Balto-Slavic complex the Vandals as well could be a major factor for the rapid expansion; Either subjugated and slavicized or proto-Slavic/semi-Slavic all along; The Przeworsk culture is strongly associated with the Vandals and will ultimately be decisive in whether Germanic, Slavic or Hybrid given that the Przeworsk culture also holds many LaTene (Iron-age) features most prob. very well a Hybrid zone;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The Slavs that reached the Elbe (i.e. all the Slavs east of the Elbe and Saxon limes) were known as the Polabian Slavs (Obotrites/Veleti[WILZEN]/Sorbs); Polabian stemming from the Slavic etymology of the Elbe/Albis river (Łaba); The Sorbs in the Lausitz are still around as such existing; However while Polabian, Kashubian and Polish are collective Lechitic (Lechisch) languages - Sorbish diverges from these; What is also interesting are the accounts of Saxo Grammaticus and Adam von Bremen;

    Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII

    Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

    Adam von Bremen does not use the term Wenden/Winden he collectively uses the term Winuler (for all Slavs) and clearly states that these Winuler stem from the Wandalen(Vandals); We also find amongst the Obotrite (Polabian) Slavs the Warnen which used to be an old Germanic peoples of the same vicinity (Ptolemy II/X) and who Plinius (IV/XXVIII) associated with the Vandals; The interesting part about Winuler/Wandalen is that these terminologies also appear much earlier in the Origins saga of the Langobarden as Winiler in conflict with the Wandalen/Vandals;
    http://postimg.org/image/qv7svsri5/

    So apart from the Venedae and the Balto-Slavic complex the Vandals as well could be a major factor for the rapid expansion; Either subjugated and slavicized or proto-Slavic/semi-Slavic all along; The Przeworsk culture is strongly associated with the Vandals and will ultimately be decisive in whether Germanic, Slavic or Hybrid given that the Przeworsk culture also holds many LaTene (Iron-age) features most prob. very well a Hybrid zone;
    We have 2 issues here
    1- the term slavic, IMO has 2 meanings, a linguistic term and an ethnic term.
    We have true "ethnic" slavs like Belorussia, Ukraine and Poland and then we also have a linguistic term for slavic , these are the 3 mentioned plus Russia, croatia, serbia etc etc.............I find it completely useless to speak of the linguistic slavs in regards to the topic.
    The linguistic term slavic is equal to the western term of Latin.

    Recently Russians have stated, we are 25% slavic, 25% central asians, 25% siberians and 25% uralic people.

    2- the "ae" endings simply means, same as or similiar to the named tribe ..........we also have Samatae, Vandalae, Bastanae, Fennae etc.........so as an example, Samatae, Samatians and others tribes who are similar to samatians.

    .........................

    The Venedi like the Aestii are insignificant people/tribes who where only mentioned in history due to the amber trade and/or by Jordanes in glorifying the might of the goths as they annexed these coastal tribes

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