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Thread: Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    To sum up my previous post, pollen diagrams reveal the following significant population movements in Eastern Germany and northern Poland during the Roman and Migration Periods and the early middle ages:
    1. At the beginning of the 1st millennium AD, Roman attempts to conquer Germania Magna drive significant numbers of West Germanics (and possibly also Continental Celts) across the Elbe. This displacement reaches out far beyond the Oder, either directly or via Domino Effects. [Assuming that Polish scientists have also prepared pollen analyses, I invite Forum members who understand Polish to examine respective publications and check out how far to the east these population movements really extended. The Marcomannic Wars may have lead to movements out of Moravia and into Silesia, which might also show up in pollen diagrams.]
    2. At the beginning of the migration period, there is a widespread, sudden and massive drop in settlement along the Baltic Sea coast and its extended hinterland. This drop starts sometimes during the early fifth century somewhere in Eastern Pomerania, and progresses westwards over the next century until it comes to a halt around 550 AD in Middle Holstein, at the Ilmenau river in Lower Saxony, and near (probably east of) the Harz mountains [Again, Polish pollen diagrams might help to clearer identify the starting point and time of this process].
    3. Repopulation, most likely driven by Slavic immigration, takes place during the seventh century. Pollen diagrams suggest a westward movement along or parallel to the Baltic coast, other movements (up the Oder and Elbe) might have also occurred, but can't be traced from the pollen diagrams that I have examined. By the end of the seventh century, the migration reaches the middle Elbe and East Holstein. Since settlement remains rather constant over the following 350 years, there seems to only have been one immigration / expansion wave from the east. In the repopulated (slavicised) areas, settlement density during the early middle ages appear to have been substantially (30-50% ?) lower than during the 1st-4th century AD.
    4. In the second half of the twelfth century, a strong and steady increase in settlement begins, which peaks by the late 14th century. This increase starts in East Holstein around 1150 and moves eastwards. It reaches the Oder around 1250, and the Wartha around 1300. The geographical spread and the timeline correspond well to the German colonisation. At the late 14th century peak, settlement-indicating pollen are at least double as frequent as during Roman times, and around three times as frequent as during the early (Slavic) middle age.

    What caused the sudden and massive population drop of the 5th -6th century?
    • The Justinian Plague, which commenced in the Eastern Mediterranean around 541 AD, can be ruled out for Eastern Pomerania, where the drop already occurred earlier. Further to the west, the drop is more or less contemporary to the Plague. However, the fact that some places were virtually deserted, while others, only a few kilometres further west, show hardly any sign of population decrease, makes it rather unlikely that the drop was primarily caused by an epidemic. The Plague may, however, have delayed repopulation of deserted areas.
    • Climate change: Between the 4th and 8th century AD, the European climate became colder and wetter (Migration Period Pessimum). Around 580 AD, Gregory of Tours reported various long winters, heavy rains, floods, poor harvests and famines throughout the Frankish Empire. Pollen diagrams testify for such a weather change in north-central Europe, which, among others, resulted in increasingly planting rye instead of wheat, and/or a temporary shift from farming towards animal husbandry. This also documents that farmers along the coasts had developed and used strategies to mitigate the impact of climate change. The change may nevertheless be responsible for some population decrease, especially a slight drop in settlement along the Oder and Wartha valleys that occurred already in the late 4th century AD, or the 5th century population decline along the upper Weser (a flood-prone area). However, it can neither explain the sudden, massive and widespread drop in settlement that occurred along the Baltic Sea and its hinterland, nor why nearby regions with similar climate and topography did not show such a drop (Middle Holstein), or even increased settlement (Dithmarschen). The latter case is instructive, as it displays a substantial increase in pasture, at the expense of forests - a mitigation strategy that in principle should also have been possible near the Baltic Sea.
    • The Huns: The Hunnic incursion into Central Europe commenced with the destruction of the Ostrogoth kingdom in southern Ukraine in 375; their dominance of Central Europe ended when Attila died in 453. The Huns are likely to have heavily influenced population trends in southern Poland / Silesia, but most of the population drop along the Baltic Sea occurred when their power was already broken. While they are thus unlikely to directly have caused the population decline, they should nevertheless have substantially weakened the Baltic economic base by blocking trade links with the Mediterranean, especially the network of amber routes. Successors to the Huns, such as the late 5th century Herulian kingdom around the middle Danube and lower Morava, however, attempted to re-establish (amber) trade with the Baltic Sea, so the economic downturn should in principle only have been temporary, and no reason to massively leave the western and central Baltic coasts.
    • Immigration pull: The collapse of the Roman empire obviously provided for various attractive migration opportunities: England, France, the Rhineland, Westphalia, Bavaria & Austria south of the Danube, the western Balkans, even Italy. However, if such opportunities had been the main migration motive, one would expect an west-easterly pattern - the closer an area to "attractive" immigration regions, the higher the decline in population and settlement. But the observed pattern is the other way round: Emigration starts in the east, progresses westward over time, and north of the Lower Elbe, from where it is easy to get to England or the Netherlands, people (refugees?) are piling up. This doesn't mean that the availability of migration opportunities, especially towards the newly established Germanic kingdoms along the middle Danube, was irrelevant. To the opposite - it surely helped communities to decide for emigration. However, I don't think it was the main factor. The existing population was primarily pushed out - otherwise the drop in settlement would have been much smaller and spread out over time.
    • Emigration push: Recent excavations along the projected course of the A20 motorway have uncovered defensive earthworks along the watershed between the Baltic Sea and the North Sea in Middle Holstein, next to remains of a small settlement that was apparently given up around 550 AD. The earthworks (a palisade-covered earth wall behind a small trench, 700 m of which have been excavated between a swamp and a lakeshore) are a mystery to excavators. It is the first time such structures have been found in Northern Germany, though the excavator (whom I met during a presentation of his results) is aware of similar findings in Denmark. Apparently, people in middle Holstein and further up through Jutland had reason to defend themselves against incursions from the Baltic Coast.
      I know I am getting highly speculative here, but the most plausible explanation to me is a "Varangian-style" pattern that emerged somewhere in the Central / Eastern Baltic Sea (Central Swedish Coast? Gotland? "Venedii" east of the Vistula?). Originally coming by boat to trade in their amber or furs, they find out that locals are either unable or unwilling to trade with them (as the trade link further on to the Mediterranean has been blocked by the Huns). In order to not return empty-handed, the "visitors" shift from trading into pillaging mode, which over a few years should suffice to convince the locals of the need to emigrate. With the initial "partners" gone, further villages along the coast and up the rivers are "visited", until most of the local population has fled the area. When trade with the Mediterranean is finally re-established, it lacks trade hubs along the western Baltic Sea and is thus re-routed towards the East (the Varangian route along the Dnepr) or the West (the Frankish-controlled Rhine). This re-routing in turn substantially affects the population further inland (to the extent they haven't already been pushed out by the Huns, as was apparently the case with Vandals & Suebi), especially along the upper Elbe and Oder, in Silesia, Bohemia and Moravia, which causes further out-migration.
    good article

    I like to say that the "east-germanics" and west-balts who inhabited old East-germany and Poland in Roman times, where pushed into poverty by the germanic push southwards into central germany and coastal Poland........the goths and vandals had to leave these lands german and polish lands as they where starving. You will recall via many historians the goths trading their children to Romans on the frontier for DOG Meat. many many children. The Romans in turn used the bulk of these goth/vandal children to replenish the butchered Illyrian lands after the Illyrian revolts. The Revolts sent the bulk of illyrians to their grave or dispersed elsewhere.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Were semigallians related to Gaulish people?

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    As stated above, pollen diagrams from near the western & central Baltic coast point at an almost complete stop of agricultural activities during the migration period. The problem here is with "almost". We may have a situation where all previous inhabitants emigrated, and some left-over cattle creates the impression of a bit of animal husbandry still going on. Or, many stayed in the area but moved to well-defendable places, which would rather be hill-tops than lakes and swamps (from where the pollen analyses have been taken). So, pollen analysis can probably not answer the question whether - and if so, how large a - part of the original population stayed in the area.

    Archaeology has so far found little signs of settlement continuity along the Baltic coast. Nevertheless, the German Wikipedia article on Pomerania mentions, without giving sources, indicators for continuous settling of parts of Rügen, around the Szczcecin lagoon, and near to Gdansk. In all three cases, there is also linguistic evidence of name continuity:
    • The Slavic Ruani on Rügen adopted the name of the Germanic Rugii, and preserved the island name;
    • The historic name of the Oder/Odra river - Suebus - lives forth in the Swina/ Swine, the water arm that separates the islands of Usedom and Wolin, and in the town name of Svinousjscie / Swinemünde;
    • Early medieval names for the town of Wolin are Julin, Jumme and Jomsburg. The latter two recall the East Germanic Giommas or Lemovii, which, according to Tacitus, in Roman times settled between the Rugians and the Goths. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post433449
    • The name Gdansk is often connected to Jordanes' Gothic homeland of "Gothiscandza" (note that "scandza" is not related to Scandinavia, but to German Schanze, English sconce, which means a defensive earth wall). The city has been first recorded in the late 10th century as „Gyddanyzc“.
    • The name of the legendary trading port of Truso, believed to mark the north-eastern start of the Baltic amber route,lives forth in Lake Drusno south of Elblag (Elbing). The name could have Germanic roots (compare "door", "through"), but may also be derived from Prussian "truszas" (reed, cane). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truso

    Such name continuity along the western Baltic coast does not necessarily need to mean settlement continuity. Simultaneously to the Slavs, the area was also resettled from Scandinavia, and those settlers might have re-introduced traditional names:
    • Near to today's Anklam on the Szczcecin lagoon, in Wenzlin, a 9th-10th century trading place has been excavated. All graves found so far were of "Viking" type - stone encirclements in the form of a boat.
    • A large early medieval Viking grave field has also been unearthed close to Truso / Lake Druzno, alongside artefacts that reveal trade links to Saxons and Frisians.
    • In Wolin (Jumme), various different types of graves were excavated, which attest a mixed Slavic, Saxon and Scandinavian early medieval population. 40% of all graves included animal remains, a practice common in contemporary (Anglo-) Saxon graveyards, but virtually non-existing in Slavic lands south of the coast. Adalbert of Bremen reported in 1080 that the city was also inhabited and Greeks (probably referring to orthodox Christians from the Kiev Rus).
    • Further to the west, in Ralswiek (Rugen) and Rostock-Dierkow, excavations point to a substantial Scandinavian presence among a predominantly Slavic population during the late 8th and 9th century.
    • In historic Reric, which since 1995 has been excavated in Groß-Strömkendorf NE of Wismar, graves attest a mix of Scandinavian, Slavic and Saxon population during the second half of the 8th century. Houses were similar to those found in early Anglo-Saxon settlements in East Anglia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reric

    Since several of the a/m places, including Jumme and Reric, were pillaged and or destroyed by the Danes in the 9th-11th century, the Scandinavian population has most likely come from southern Sweden and/ or Gotland (Vikings and Rugians took revenge by ravaging Haithabu / Schleswig in 1050 and 1066). In any case, we may conclude that the Pomeranian coast has seen significant (proto-)Swedish and Saxon settlement and cultural influence from the 7th-8th century onwards.

    Let me highlight a few more places on the coast and in the hinterland where population continuity seems possible:
    • Along the Baltic amber route from Truso to Carnuntum (Deutsch-Altenburg) on the middle Danube, Ptolemy records several major settlements. In the cases of Bydgosz-Osielsko (Ptolemy's Ascaucalis) and Kalisz (Ptolemy's Calisia), name continuity is very likely. Somewhere in-between the two was Ptolemy's Setidava. It may have been located around today's Konin (more specifically Stare Miasto, a bit furher south), and nearby Zdzary-Kolonia may have preserved the old name given by Ptolemy. Finally, Czluchow in central-western Pomerelia may correspond to Ptolemy's Scurgum that was located on a more north-westerly branch of the amber route, at the junction with the "salt route" from Kolobrzeg (see below).
    • Kolobrzeg (Kolberg) on the central Pomeranian coast is another early medieval trading centre of "international", i.e. mixed Saxon-Scandinavian-Slavic character. Eight out of 34 graves (~25%) analysed there contained animal remains. It was first recorded in 1000 AD as salsa Cholbergiensis in reference to the local salt mines / springs. "Chol-" relates to Old Germanic "Hall" (->pale, bright) for salt, a root that is also found in town names like Hallstatt, Halle on the Saale, or (Bad) Reichenhall. Since this is the only major occurrence of salt in Eastern Pomerania, the salt mines / springs are quite likely to already have been exploited in prehistoric times, so we might even have a case of name continuity here. Otherwise, the Germanic name suggests a substantial Saxon settlement in the area by 1000 AD, i.e. 250 years before the start of high medieval German colonisation.
    • The next stop on the south-easterly salt route from Kolobrzeg, Bialogard, is clearly Slavic in name. Nearby Debcyno has lent its name to the Debcyn culture, a blend of Elbe Germanic and Wiebark cultures that flourished in the region until the first quarter of the sixth century. "First quarter of the sixth century" is rather long, considering that pollen diagrams indicate a sharp population drop already from the early fifth century on. Moreover, several German texts mention an "early Slavic" fortification of the Bialograd castle hill from the sixth century, which would be pretty early in relation to the timeline observed elsewhere. In combination, this smells like a possible case of population continuity. However, I haven't yet been able to find any German or English reports on local excavations, so I don't know how reliable the reported dates are.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%99bczyn_culture
    • In Drawsko Pomorski, a large Roman age graveyard has been excavated, and from the seventh century on, it hosted an early Slavic castle. Whether there has been some kind of settlement continuity, or East Germanics and West Slavs both appreciated the location as convenient stop between the Oder and Gdansk, is unclear. It might be Ptolemy's Virunum, but in that case the name has obviously not survived.
    • Santok, strategically located at the confluence of the Notec and Warta rivers a few km east of Gorzow Wiekopolski, was an important town during the Roman period, as well as in the early medieval. The name might have Germanic roots, either "sandy island" (-oog) or "sandy hedge/ fortification" (-hacht).

    Finally, the various "Stargards" found across the area suggest some kind of population continuity - why else should incoming Slavs recognise a fortification (usually earthwork and decaying quickly) as such, and label it as "old". OTOH, remains of the original population can't have been very large in numbers, otherwise the fortification's traditional name would have survived as well. Point in case is Oldenburg in Holstein. The first wall has been dendochronically dated to around 680 AD, which is a bit early for a Slavic construction, so it is probably of Viking origin. Between the late 8th and the 11th century, the place was the regional centre of the West Slavic Wagrians, under the name of Starigrad. During the late 10th/ early 11th century, the name changed first into Aldinborg (possibly due to strong Danish or Swedish presence) and then into Low Saxon Oldenburg.

    All in all, it seems that some of the original East Germanic population had staid in place and was gradually slavicised. In particular larger towns along the main trade routes appear to have remained inhabited during the migration period. Slavic, as lingua franca of the powerful Avar empire to the south, may actually have assumed a similar role also further north, facilitating trade between remains of the original East Germanic and Celtic speakers, incoming Slavs, and new trade partners from Scandinavia, the Kiev Rus, and the Ladoga/ Lower Volga area.

  4. #79
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    John Speed, "The Description of Poland", published in London in 1626 (excerpts):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Speed





    Description of each region follows after this. There is also a map of Poland attached.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Were semigallians related to Gaulish people?
    Just noticed this question. Baltic Semigallians are not related to Gaulish.

    It is Latinised 'zemgaļi', from Latvian zem(ais) 'the low' gals 'end'. Similar etnonyme is Letgallians from latgaļi/letgaļi. Latvian let(u) 'Letts, Latvians' gals 'end' (alternative version Lithuanian end).

    Also Galindians (both West and East) have same etimology, the furthest ends of Baltic areal.

    Btw very interesting how names get distorted when spoken by stranger.

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    I'm not sure if those images with text that I posted above can be seen.

    Anyway, here is what John Speed wrote in 1626:

    "[Poland] is part of Sarmatia Europea, and the first inhabitants were the Sauromatae a Scythian people (...) It was next possest by the Vandalls, an active Nation (...) briefly were the Vandalls natives or were they invaders, here they were found and ejected by the Sclavonians, and these were the third Inhabitants of Polonia. She was over-runne at the same time, and had the same fortune with Bohemia: they were both lost [by the Vandals] to their old Lords, and divided betwixt the two runagate brothers of Croatia, Zechius and Lechius, who being forced (for a murder) out of their own soyle, brought on their crue into these parts, about the yeare 550, and here they have continued (in their posteritie) to this day. They are as yet remembred in the very names of the people. For the Bohemians in their proper language call themselves Zechians, and in the Great[er] Poland there is still extant a Territorie, knowne by the title of Regnum Lechitorum. (...) And so is Pole-land interpreted out of Sclavonish tongue. It was before called Sarmatia (...) it was divided from another Sarmatia by the River Tanais: that on the one side was called Asiatica, for the most part wilde, heathenish Idolaters (...) this other is Europea, which being joyned with some parts of Germany West-ward to the River Odera, Silesia, & Moravia make up the Kingdome of Polonia as it is here described. (...)"


    Polish Sarmatism was thus based on the belief in continuity of population from most ancient times to present:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLcpwwSRx24

    English wikipedia article about Sarmatism wrongly claims, that:

    Sarmatia (in Polish, Sarmacja) was a semi-legendary, poetic name for Poland that was fashionable into the 18th century, and which designated qualities associated with the literate citizenry of the vast Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
    Well, name Sarmatia Europea was just as much - no more, no less - "semi-legendary" as name Germania Magna. In works of ancient geographers (Poseidonius of Apameia, Pomponius Mela, Claudius Ptolemy, etc.) SE was a defined geographical area, just like GM. Of course various authors saw the boundaries of Sarmatia Europaea - particularly its western boundaries with Germania Magna - differently. Poseidonius (born in 135 BC, died in 51 BC) saw the Germania-Sarmatia border along the Elbe River or somewhere between the Elbe River and the Odra River. Mela (died in 45 AD) saw it roughly along the Odra and the Lusatian Neisse Rivers (just like modern Polish-German border). And Ptolemy (born in 90 AD, died in 168 AD) saw the Germania-Sarmatia boundary along the Vistula River.

    Southern border of SE was defined by ancient geographers along the Carpathian Mountains, the Danube Delta, and northern coast of the Black Sea.

    In the east ancient Sarmatia Europaea included territories of modern Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia and westernmost pieces of Russia.

    Borders of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth happened to be nearly the same as those of ancient Sarmatia Europea:

    http://sarmatia-europaea.vot.pl/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    "Poland, more Germanic or Slavic? "

    Yes, rename Polska into Polenmark & ban Polish slavic language in Poland too...


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    Great question.I believe %55 Germanic %45 Slavic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I'm not sure if those images with text that I posted above can be seen.

    Anyway, here is what John Speed wrote in 1626:

    "[Poland] is part of Sarmatia Europea, and the first inhabitants were the Sauromatae a Scythian people (...) It was next possest by the Vandalls, an active Nation (...) briefly were the Vandalls natives or were they invaders, here they were found and ejected by the Sclavonians, and these were the third Inhabitants of Polonia. She was over-runne at the same time, and had the same fortune with Bohemia: they were both lost [by the Vandals] to their old Lords, and divided betwixt the two runagate brothers of Croatia, Zechius and Lechius, who being forced (for a murder) out of their own soyle, brought on their crue into these parts, about the yeare 550, and here they have continued (in their posteritie) to this day. They are as yet remembred in the very names of the people. For the Bohemians in their proper language call themselves Zechians, and in the Great[er] Poland there is still extant a Territorie, knowne by the title of Regnum Lechitorum. (...) And so is Pole-land interpreted out of Sclavonish tongue. It was before called Sarmatia (...) it was divided from another Sarmatia by the River Tanais: that on the one side was called Asiatica, for the most part wilde, heathenish Idolaters (...) this other is Europea, which being joyned with some parts of Germany West-ward to the River Odera, Silesia, & Moravia make up the Kingdome of Polonia as it is here described. (...)"


    Polish Sarmatism was thus based on the belief in continuity of population from most ancient times to present:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLcpwwSRx24

    English wikipedia article about Sarmatism wrongly claims, that:



    Well, name Sarmatia Europea was just as much - no more, no less - "semi-legendary" as name Germania Magna. In works of ancient geographers (Poseidonius of Apameia, Pomponius Mela, Claudius Ptolemy, etc.) SE was a defined geographical area, just like GM. Of course various authors saw the boundaries of Sarmatia Europaea - particularly its western boundaries with Germania Magna - differently. Poseidonius (born in 135 BC, died in 51 BC) saw the Germania-Sarmatia border along the Elbe River or somewhere between the Elbe River and the Odra River. Mela (died in 45 AD) saw it roughly along the Odra and the Lusatian Neisse Rivers (just like modern Polish-German border). And Ptolemy (born in 90 AD, died in 168 AD) saw the Germania-Sarmatia boundary along the Vistula River.

    Southern border of SE was defined by ancient geographers along the Carpathian Mountains, the Danube Delta, and northern coast of the Black Sea.

    In the east ancient Sarmatia Europaea included territories of modern Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia and westernmost pieces of Russia.

    Borders of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth happened to be nearly the same as those of ancient Sarmatia Europea:

    http://sarmatia-europaea.vot.pl/
    i assume the tanais river is the Don river

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_%28Russia%29


    and the lechites lived around the upper vistula near the modern city of Sandonierz...............with the veleti people west of them


    is this correct?

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    "Great question.I believe %55 Germanic %45 Slavic" which "germanic"... Half of current eastern Germany was Slavic, until the Teutonic Christian ordo.
    And from where did you come up to the "fact" of the number of 55% of "Germanic" and "45%" of Slavic...?

    You are deluded to think that Poland has some greater germanic speaking population...Poland is still a Slavic land...
    There exist a german minority(in Masuria), just like exist in eastern Germany for example (the Sorbs)... Sorbs are the last remain of native Slavs in Germany, others were assimilated or killed since the arrival of Teutones... This was probably one of the biggest genocide since 10th century "AD", which is still ignored...

    And "Iranian" Sarmatia was invented with the same reason as the reason why the old Slavic faith (and therefore history) was persecuted with arrival of Christian Teutones... And Greeks were renaming all original names; for example; they could not pronounce "Veneti" with letter V, so they rather wrote down as "Enedae" or for example instead of Vilusha or Apalusha (named after Apulu; "paliti"; "pal"; "to burn"("enlightener"; Etruscan city of Pula (Pola), named after Apulu (also a Greek Apollo) they rather wrote down as "Ilios"...Or "Roxolani" from Rogojeleni; "horned antlers", or "Alans" from (Y)Alani(antlers), etc etc...
    Or for example "Druids". Greeks renamed the TRUVEDI (3-VEDI; "those who know / see the Trinity") into "TRUID" or "DRUIDES" with the lack of V again... Or perhaps the Amoženke or Amuženke or Omožene ("masculine women") into "Amazonas"... or Zarja or Zoramati into "Sarmatai" ("Sarmatians") or even into "lizard people"...
    This is the origin of the "Saures" (Zorjani) or "Danoians" (Donci)...from current river of DON.
    They were always associated with their most important goddess - a white swan Dana or Danica (Danitsa) (like her mother Lada) & with her 2 other sisters; Vechernitsa (evening star) & Severnitsa (Polaris star)...All of them were daughters of Dazhbog & Lada...



    http://thezorya.tripod.com/goddesses/id1.html



    SARASWATI - a (Hyper)Borean / Bharatian goddess SARA / ZORA / ZORYA/ SARYA/ZARYA-SVETA (ZVETA) श्वेत; from "Saraswati" derived later "Sarah", wife of Abram (Abraham; wife of Brahma)
    Her another name was DANU(Dona; Danitsa; "Daniti se", "Данута є")... because she is the morning & evening "light" (Den; Dien; Day,...)(life); svet-ilo (ilumina)...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=138CwbWms8U


    Her form was later absorved into the Abrahamic (against Brahmanic) "teachings" of Anunnas (Anunaki; Anu-Nagi(Nachash); "Shining ones"; Lizards ("Sauros"); because of their "shining scales" (like lizards)... from the Nagaloka (7th world); "the Shining ones"...




    The original "Sarmatian" 9-days long week & Nakshatra (9x3 Sidereal) month ( calendar ) was also replaced with Babylonian calendar (7 days long week; 7 was the number of the "underworld" (Patala / Nagaloka(Kačji svet)...
    Last edited by Vedun; 16-10-14 at 00:01.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Germanic-speakers were not the original IE inhabitants of territory which is now Poland, they came during middle-to-late Iron Age as immigrants or invaders and in relatively small numbers.

    There is a biological population continuity in Poland since the Bronze Age until nowadays - neither Germanic immigration nor Slavic immigration altered it considerably.

    Language & culture of population of Poland were changing few times, but population - in its main core (not counting quite numerous admixtures from migrating peoples) - is similar as in times of Biskupin-builders:

    http://www.staff.amu.edu.pl/~anthro/.../01piontek.pdf



    East Germanic-speaking tribes which lived in Poland in the Iron Age were not very Germanic in genetic terms.

    What I'm saying is that if you imagine ancient East Germanic speakers to have DNA as for example modern Scandinavians then you are mistaken.

    Those tribes (Goths, Vandals, etc.) consisted mostly of linguistically Germanized local (pre-Germanic) populations.

    Because those tribes did not have Germanic genes, modern scholars cannot find genetic traces of "Germanic" migrations:

    "Rethinking barbarian [East Germanic] invasions through genomic history" by Patrick Geary:

    Part 1: https://video.ias.edu/node/5304

    Part 2: https://video.ias.edu/topology/2013/1002-PatrickGeary

    Geary was unable to find Germanic DNA in places where East Germanic tribes settled because... East Germanic tribes were not genetically Germanic. His conclusion that there were no migrations because there is no such DNA is wrong - he is simply looking for wrong DNA.

    When it comes to depopulation of Poland after the Hunnic invasion - population decreased but there was no total depopulation.

    According to estimations by historian Adam Sengebusch the population of Poland (within modern borders) was:

    Late 4th century AD (shortly before the Hunnic invasion) - ca. 600,000 people (2 people per 1 km2)
    After the Hunnic invasion and subsequent emigration - between ca. 150,000 and ca. 250,000 people

    According to archaeologist-prehistorian K. Godłowski, depopulation caused by the Huns and by emigration to the Roman Empire was 2/3.

    So population was reduced to 1/3 of previous level, according to Godłowski. He doesn't say how big it was before depopulation.

    ==============================

    Coming back to John Speed's description of Ancient Poland's inhabitants as "Sauromatae":

    Of course inhabitants of Poland were not speakers of Sarmatian (a branch of Iranian) language.

    They were rather speakers of an extinct family of Indo-European languages which can be called "Venedic languages".

    Those languages were perhaps closely related to Balto-Slavic languages.

    But part of Europe where they lived was called Sarmatia Europaea, and was located to the east of part called Germania Magna.

    http://sarmatia-europaea.vot.pl/

    In this sense all tribes who lived in Sarmatia Europaea were Sarmatians, no matter what language they spoke. Just like English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. people are all British no matter what language they speak and what culture they have, because they live in the region of British Isles.

    ================

    Bronze Age Corded Ware burials from Eulau, East Germany, revealed R1a haplogroup. And those people were not Germanic-speakers.

    Bronze Age inhabitants of Poland, Biskupin-builders, were most certainly also mostly R1a - just like modern inhabitants of Poland.

    ================

    As for Medieval immigration of German-speakers to Poland and Bohemia:

    Czechs have more R1b than Poles but most of this R1b is not originally Germanic.

    Austria-Bohemia were Celtic (Halstatt Culture) before they became Slavic & Germanic.

    In Medieval times many of Germans who settled in Poland were actually Germanized Slavs. For example father of certain Albrecht Bart (an important burgher in Wroclaw, Lower Silesia) was a Germanized Slavic Sorb, in Latin: "de genere Czurbanorum a Thethonia" ("by origin a Sorb from Teutonia") and his mother wasn't Germanic, but Romance - Waloon (in Latin: "ex parte matris Romanus, a platea Romanorum Wratizlavie").

    There was a district of Waloon weavers (platea Romanorum) in Wroclaw (Wratizlavie) at that time.

    As for Albrecht Bart - his parents were a culturally Germanized Slavic Sorb + a Waloon woman, and he married a Polish woman, daughter of Palatine Dzierżko-Peregryn (whose brother was Castellan of Lebus Przybyslaw and whose nephew was Bishop of Wroclaw Tomasz).

    Son of mentioned Castellan Przybyslaw - his name was Zbylut - married a German woman from Wezenborg family.

    Germanic-speaking doesn't mean genetically Germanic. And change of material culture does not indicate total population replacement. Often you don't even need the change of power (people at the top) for a change of material culture. Trade and peaceful cultural exchange also take place.

    Half of current eastern Germany was Slavic
    Even today people in eastern Germany and in Austria have a lot of R1a haplogroup, which was most common among Medieval West Slavs.

    Also I2a haplogroup is very typical for Slavic populations. Of course it would be a mistake to associate haplogroups with ethnicities, but are there are certain statistical correlations, which allow us to arrive at certain conclusions and generalizations concerning their origins.

    Also Slavic surnames are common in Germany - some of them are Polish in origin but some are from other Slavic groups.

    For example here is surname "Janke", distribution of which indicates that it is Obotrite-Veleti rather than Polish, Pomeranian or Sorbian:



    Comparison of R1a and R1b haplogroups among people in various German, Austrian, Czech and Polish cities today:

    Map shows modern-day R1b / R1a proportions among inhabitants of 25 selected cities located in Central Europe:

    Dark green = Polish and Czech cities
    Light green = German & Austrian cities with ~20% (Greifswald) up to ~43% (Graz) of R1a
    Dark red = other cities in Germany

    What can be observed is that former Slavic areas in Germany & Austria correlate with high % of people with R1a haplogroup:



    Graz in Early Middle Ages was a Slavic city (burgh) of the Principality of Carantania, which was called Gradec (in Old Slovene language). Graz has so high percent of people with R1a haplogroup, that it is obvious that they are mostly descendats of Germanized Slovenes (Carantanians).

    Note that German-speaking Austrian inhabitants of Graz have a higher % of R1a than ethnic Slovenes of Slovenia.

    According to our website, 38% of Slovenes from Slovenia have R1a haplogroup, while 43% of Austrians from Graz have it:

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml



    Map and chart based on: Kalevi Wiik, "Where Did European Men Come From?", Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 4:35-85, 2008.

    Let's remember that in Poland frequency of R1a is not only higher than in Czech Republic, but also higher than in Belarus and Ukraine.

    Relatively low frequency of R1a haplogroup among inhabitants of Wroclaw is because very significant part of modern inhabitants of this city are Poles deported from Ukraine after World War 2, and apparently they had lower frequency of R1a (just like Ukrainians in Ukraine).

    ======================================

    and the lechites lived around the upper vistula near the modern city of Sandonierz...............with the veleti people west of them

    is this correct?
    Near the modern city of Sandomierz lived the tribes of the Vistulans and (east of them) the Lendians.

    "Lechites" is a general term for North-West Slavs (i.e. everything north of Czechs, Moravians, Slovaks and Sorbs).

    "Lechites" = Poles, Pomeranians, Veleti and Obodrites (last of the Obodrites who preserved their language were the Drevani people in the region of Drawehn/Wendland near Lueneburg, just west of the Elbe River - some of them continued to speak their Slavic language until around year 1800, even though during the 1700s their language was already full of German loanwords - almost 40% of their vocabulary was at that time German and over 60% was still Slavic).

    Lechites / Lachs was also sometimes used exclusively for Poles.

    Vistulans and Lendians were counted among Lechitic tribes and among Polish tribes.

    Veleti lived - in historical times - in what is now Germany, just west of the Oder River. West of the Veleti lived the Obodrites, who lived as far west as Wagria (Wagrien) and also west of the Elbe River (Drevani tribe of the Veleti people).

    =========================================

    Map below shows surviving enclaves of Polabian Slavic-speakers (Sorbs and Pomeranians are NOT included in this map) in the 1500s and the 1600s. Map comes from Polish historian Adam Sengebusch, author of e.g. "Wspomnienia o Słowianach Połabskich" ("Memoirs about Polabian Slavs"). The map shows only Polabian majority areas in the 1500s and the 1600s (areas Germanized already before 1500 are not shown), but I added also the ethnic boundary in the 800s (red line):



    Here is the region where Slavic Obotrite language was spoken until roughly year 1800:



    "German [Askanian Dynasty; House of Luxembourg; and the Teutonic Order] political expansion in 12th to 14th centuries":



    The extent of Slavic Lusatian Sorbian language in South-Eastern Germany over the centuries:



    Map posted below shows westernmost Slavic groups around year 800 (lighter red boundary shows territories already by that time partially De-Slavicized, or never fully Slavic - it is not certain whether those territories were fully Slavic or always ethnically mixed - individual Slavic groups extended even more westward than that line, for example a few groups of migrating Slavs settled along the Rhine River, but of course they were never majority of population there):



    Slavic presence can also be found in names of localities in Eastern Germany. For example typical (but not the only ones) variants of toponyms of Slavic origin, are names with -ow/au, -in or -itz or -itze/itza suffixes, such as: Spandau, Krakow am See, Schwerin, Berlin, Chemnitz, Dönitz, Steglitz, etc.

    For example below is a map indicating areas in Germany where you can find settlements with names ending with suffix -itz:

    (BTW - Compare this map of Slavic toponyms in East Germany with map of R1a / R1b haplogroups posted above):



    Veleti, Obotrites and Sorbs were not single tribes but entire ethnic groups - they were further divided into smaller tribes.

    Here is the list and approximate locations of Slavic tribes in East Germany (names are Latinized, recorded in sources written in Latin):



    Many cities in what is now East Germany - including Berlin and Luebeck - have Slavic origin. They originated as Slavic fortified urban centers.

    Already German 19th century historian August Wilhelm Ferdinand von Tippelskirch wrote in 1861:

    "(...) Slavic tribes along the Baltic coast were searching for profits to a larger extent in trade, fishing and piracy, than in agriculture. They lived in urban centers much more eagerly than ancient Germanic tribes, who hated urban lifestyle. (...)"

    Slavic population of many of those early Medieval urban centres survived and became Germanized in linguistic and cultural terms.

    Cultural Germanization came together with Christianization (because those Slavs in East Germany were Pagans).

    Later many of those Germanized Slavs moved farther eastward and settled in Poland and in Prussia.

    Some of the most important cities (main grods) of Polabian and Sorbian Slavs in Eastern Germany were:

    Original Slavic name / German name:

    - Hawolin / Havelberg (main god worshipped by this city: Yarovit); constructed in the 9th century; captured by Crusaders in 1147

    Hawolin was capital of Neletice tribe (35)

    - Brennabor / Brandenburg; founded in the 8th century, surrounded by rampart in the 9th century; captured by Crusaders in 1157

    Brennabor was capital of Havolane aka Hevelli (4)

    - Arkona / Arkona (main god worshipped: Svetovid); surrounded by mighty rampart and moat in the 10th century; captured by Danes+Saxons+Pomeranians in 1168

    Arkona was capital (and one of two main grods) of the Rujani (23)

    - Raciborz / Ratzeburg; constructed in late 10th century along two main trade routes (Bardowick-Wagria and Hamburg-Mechlin); captured by Saxons in 1140

    Raciborz was capital of the Polabi (36)

    - Mechlin / Mecklenburg; fortified town since the 9th century (open settlement existed already before that), along trade routes from Elbe River to Baltic Sea and from Hamburg to mouth of Oder River; important centre of slave trade (those slaves were mostly Danish people captured by Slavic pirates) in the 12th century; abandoned and burned by its own inhabitants in 1160

    Mechlin was capital (and together with Zwierzyn one of two main cities) of the Reregi (37)

    - Zwierzyn or Swarzyn / Schwerin; (main god: Svarog) mentioned as Zuarin in 1018, existed at least since the 10th century; captured by Saxons under the Henry the Lion i 1160

    - Starigard / Oldenburg in Holstein; fortified town since the 9th century (non-fortified Slavic settlement in this place existed already since the 7th century), Adam of Bremen in 1076 described it in Latin: "Aldinborg civitas magna Sclavorum, qui Waigri dicuntur, sita est iuxta mare, quod Balticum sive Barbarum dicitur, itinere die ab Hammaburg" ("Starigard a great city of Slavs, called Wagri, which is located near the sea called Baltic or Barbarian, one day travel from Hamburg").

    Starigard was capital of Wagri (11). Wagri were old enemies of Saxons. In 798 in the battle of River Sventana (German name: Schwentine) Slavic Wagri allied with Franks defeated Nordalbingians (Northern Saxons).

    - Pozdawilk / Pasewalk; first capital of Wkrzanie (or Ukranie), Latinized name: Vuucri (5)

    - Przęcław / Prenzlau; second capital of Vuucri (5), located at Lake Ueckersee. Its "golden age" was during the 12th century, but not much is known about it. River Uecker is the German name for River Wkra or Ukra, named after the Slavic Vuucri.

    - Malchów / Malchow; constructed in the 10th century; captured in the 2nd half of the 12th century

    - Radogoszcz (Retra) / Radigast (Rethra); main god worshipped: Svarozic, also known as Radogost (he was son of Svarog); besieged by Germans in 1068 but siege was lifted; destroyed in ca. 1128 by forces of Emperor Lothar III, exact location of Radogoszcz is unknown (some archaeologists and historians identify it with remains of a Slavic fortified town found in Gross Raden at the Binnensee Lake; some others point at other locations)

    Retra was capital of the Redarii (41)

    - Roztok / Rostock; located near the Baltic Sea. Described by Adam of Bremen and Helmold of Bosau. Constructed in the 10th century. In the 1120s - after a siege which lasted for 5 weeks (which testifies to size and powerful fortifications of Roztok) captured by Obotrite Prince Sventipolk (son of Henry the Nakonid, who was son of Saint Gottschalk). After that the city declined and became partially depopulated during the 2nd half of the 12th century (perhaps in the 1160s), but later it started to develop again following the charter on Luebeck Recht by King Valdemar I of Denmark on 24 June 1214 and the influx of German settlers (it's quite confusing to me why Danish Kings usually brought German settlers to their cities, and not Danish settlers - perhaps Danish people were mostly rural and in general not very numerous at that time).

    Roztok was one of cities (probably capital )of the Chyżyni - Chizzini (40)

    And many more, which I have no time to describe currently.

    There is a good Polish book about the Slavic Obotrites - A. Turasiewicz's "Dzieje polityczne Obodrzyców", Cracow 2004:

    https://openlibrary.org/works/OL1299...tach_1160-1164

    From English summary:



    And here another book in Polish - Marek Cetwiński, "Knights in Silesia until the end of the 13th century. Ancestry (origins), economy, politics":

    http://otworzksiazke.pl/images/ksiaz...a_polityka.pdf

    Most of knights in Silesia at that time were Polish. Until year 1300 only 55 families of knights from Germany settled in Silesia - most of them from Lusatia and Meissen. These 55 families included also Germanized Slavic noble families, such as father of mentioned Albrecht Bart. Albrecht Bart himself was a burgher - his father was a knight, but he settled in Wroclaw and married a burgher Waloon woman (daughter of a local weaver).

    Most of these 55 families of knights who settled in Silesia until 1300 came during the last 30 years of this period (1270 - 1300).

    Apart from those 55 families from Germany there were also several Czech families from Czech Kingdom.

    German Summary of Cetwiński's book (pages 239 - 243):



    By year 1300 proportions of Polish / German / Czech nobility in Silesia were as follows:

    Total number of knights mentioned by name - 1192

    Number of German knights - 99 (just over 8%)
    Number of Czech knights - 9 (less than 1%)

    Number of Polish knights - 1084 (almost 91%)

    Those German knights included some knights who were themselves of Non-German origin (like father of Albrecht Bart).

    And among officials in Lower Silesia only 5% (13 out of 260) were foreigners by year 1300.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 30-10-14 at 04:01.

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    In the repopulated (slavicised) areas, settlement density during the early middle ages appear to have been substantially (30-50% ?) lower than during the 1st-4th century AD.
    Not really - at least not in all areas.

    For example in Greater Poland regions (when the Polish state originated) settlement density was higher in the Early Middle Ages than in the Iron Age.

    Examples:

    Take a look at "summ of anthropogenic factors" throughout time:



    Ostrów Lednicki area between Poznan and Gniezno:

    Jezioro Lednica = Lednica Lake
    Jezioro Skrzetuszewskie = Skrzetuszewskie Lake (see above)



    Population density in Gniezno-Poznan area around year 1000 AD:



    Same with Giecz (below):

    We can see more human activity in Early Middle Ages than in the Przeworks Culture time.

    We can also see two (not one) depopulation phases - after Lusatian culture, and after Przeworsk culture:



    Same for Baranowko (near Mosina, near Poznan):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Germanic-speakers were not the original IE inhabitants of territory which is now Poland, they came during middle-to-late Iron Age as immigrants or invaders and in relatively small numbers.

    There is a biological population continuity in Poland since the Bronze Age until nowadays - neither Germanic immigration nor Slavic immigration altered it considerably.

    Language & culture of population of Poland were changing few times, but population - in its main core (not counting quite numerous admixtures from migrating peoples) - is similar as in times of Biskupin-builders:
    It is a bold statement and future genetic archeology should solve it.
    From table beneath you can see around year 500 AD depopulation of this region. After that Slavs showed up, and in this case their genetic imprint might be much bigger in today,s population than surviving locals.


    Great compilation of material anyway.


    Interesting is high level of R1b in Warsaw, the highest in Poland.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    From table beneath you can see around year 500 AD depopulation of this region.
    Note that the extent of depopulation at that time was about the same as between Lusatian and Przeworsk cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Even today people in eastern Germany and in Austria have a lot of R1a haplogroup, which was most common among Medieval West Slavs.
    how wrong is this............Are you trying to say that R1a was not in germany and Austria in the bronze or iron age ?

    Are you trying to say R1a entered these areas in slavic migration times?

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    @tomenable
    "
    Of course inhabitants of Poland were not speakers of Sarmatian (a branch of Iranian) language.

    They were rather speakers of an extinct family of Indo-European languages which can be called "Venedic languages".

    Those languages were perhaps closely related to Balto-Slavic languages."

    which sarmatian tribes where in modern Poland, can you name them?

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    From what info I have gathered; the Old Thracian language group seems to be a bit relative to Slavic too. It also seems related to Hellenic (Greek) at times. I often wonder if Thracian was a cross-roads between Balto-Slavic and Hellenic/Anatolian IE languages.

    There are also rumors/theories that Thracian was originally called/or was a branch of Indo-Aryan; long before Greece gave name to the area of Thrace. A lot of this would make sense (if it were true), seeing as it seems Scythian descendents seem almost exclusively R1a.

    Thracians names such as Zalmoxis, Gebeleizis, Burebista, Sabazios, Decebalus, Darzelas. Also city names like Ziridava or Ziriduewa (based on several dialects, Dacian or Getae) for example.

    To me, it sounds very Greco-Slavic to me. Many Romanian descendents are Thracian and many of them appear to look very Slavic to me.

    If nobody told me these were Thracian names, I would easily mistaken them for Greek or Western Slavic (Polish, Slovak, Czech). They also appear more Baltic-looking to me, too.

    I think, from my research, all of the languages mentioned (Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, Greek) have/had similar grammatical syntax.

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    The area which is now Poland-Ukraine-Belarus-Lithuania-Latvia-Estonia-Moldova was called by Roman & Greek geographers-historians "Sarmatia Europaea".

    It does not mean that all or even majority of inhabitants of this area were ethnic Sarmatians.

    As for R1a - it was in East Germany in the Bronze Age, but there is no evidence of its presence during the Iron Age among Germanic tribes. There is evidence of discontinuity between Late Lusatian Culture and Przeworsk-Wielbark Cultures. There is also a lot of archaeological evidence that people of Late Lusatian Culture (7th - 3rd centuries BC) emigrated from Poland eastward, contributing to creation of Zarubintsy Culture in Belarus and Ukraine.

    Therefore it is extremely likely that large parts of population of the Late Lusatian Culture were pushed eastward by invading Germanic tribes in the 3rd century BC, forming the Zarubintsy Culture. Remains of Lusatian population which remained in Poland, conquered by Germanic invaders, formed Wielbark (Goths) and Przeworsk (Vandals) cultures - which had Germanic ruling elites but majority of both populations were of Non-Germanic stock.

    Meanwhile post-Lusatian population which had emigrated to Ukraine-Belarus under Germanic pressure formed (in the 3rd century BC) the Zarubintsy Culture. Later in the 6th century AD descendants of that population participated - as Slavic-speakers - in expansion of Slavs into Poland.

    Population of the Zarubintsy Culture was of course mixed - it consisted of local pre-3rd century BC stock plus immigrants from Poland ("Lusatians").

    So there was no one depopulation of Poland in ancient times, but two depopulations. Of course neither was total but both were large-scale.

    Both were related to ethnic changes - Germanic languages were not spoken in Poland before the 3rd century BC.

    Are you trying to say R1a entered these areas in slavic migration times?
    Rather it re-entered in Slavic migrations times. As I wrote, Germanic tribes had expanded eastward and later were pushed westward again.

    I'm not saying that all of modern R1a in Germany came with Slavic-speakers but certainly great majority did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The area which is now Poland-Ukraine-Belarus-Lithuania-Latvia-Estonia-Moldova was called by Roman & Greek geographers-historians "Sarmatia Europaea".
    wrong, poland, lithuania, latvia and estonia where never part of Sarmatae , the others apart from Poland where finnic lands as per the Romans and Greeks.
    southern Moldova was Getae lands ( some have said a mixed Thracian-Bastanae people)


    It does not mean that all or even majority of inhabitants of this area were ethnic Sarmatians.
    Samatians are a branch of the scythian family and they got absorbed into gothic society around 250AD

    As for R1a - it was in East Germany in the Bronze Age, but there is no evidence of its presence during the Iron Age among Germanic tribes. There is evidence of discontinuity between Late Lusatian Culture and Przeworsk-Wielbark Cultures. There is also a lot of archaeological evidence that people of Late Lusatian Culture (7th - 3rd centuries BC) emigrated from Poland eastward, contributing to creation of Zarubintsy Culture in Belarus and Ukraine.
    these cultures where neither germanic nor slavic...........don't be like the rest in trying to absorb an extinct society into a modern society. You talk like an albanian claiming extinct illyrian society as theirs.

    Therefore it is extremely likely that large parts of population of the Late Lusatian Culture were pushed eastward by invading Germanic tribes in the 3rd century BC, forming the Zarubintsy Culture. Remains of Lusatian population which remained in Poland, conquered by Germanic invaders, formed Wielbark (Goths) and Przeworsk (Vandals) cultures - which had Germanic ruling elites but majority of both populations were of Non-Germanic stock.
    More like they where pressed by Celtic tribes from central germany as the celts pushed eastwards.

    Meanwhile post-Lusatian population which had emigrated to Ukraine-Belarus under Germanic pressure formed (in the 3rd century BC) the Zarubintsy Culture. Later in the 6th century AD descendants of that population participated - as Slavic-speakers - in expansion of Slavs into Poland.

    Population of the Zarubintsy Culture was of course mixed - it consisted of local pre-3rd century BC stock plus immigrants from Poland ("Lusatians").

    So there was no one depopulation of Poland in ancient times, but two depopulations. Of course neither was total but both were large-scale.

    Both were related to ethnic changes - Germanic languages were not spoken in Poland before the 3rd century BC.

    Rather it re-entered in Slavic migrations times. As I wrote, Germanic tribes had expanded eastward and later were pushed westward again.

    I'm not saying that all of modern R1a in Germany came with Slavic-speakers but certainly great majority did.[/QUOTE]

    Have you read the latest russian and polish theories on slavic............summary, slavic was a language created on the modern borders of ukraine and belrussia ( in the heavy forested area ), over time as more minor tribes escaped other tribes , these people fled into these forested areas and accepted/learnt slavic language, afte many centuries , this mixed lot of people broke out in numbers and fanned out in all directions .........the rest you know ( i hope)
    There is no slavic historian that can pinpoint an original slavic tribe ( same like the celtic race)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    @ Tomenable: I commend you for your elaborate, and lengthy hypothesis. It'll take a while to walk through all of that. I have a few specific points. One general point I have to object is that you place a too heavy weight on the issue of R1a (even exclusivity!). In particular, R1a no doubt was in Central Europe long before (the oldest attestation is the Eulau site in Germany circa 2600 BC), and from its distribution, for example, one of the older subclades of R1a (L664) may have been a minor component in the Celtic and Germanic population movements. For the Urnfield culture, I find it dubious to postulate what language these people spoke based on the occurence (or absence) of the Y-Haplogroup R1a. For the Urnfielders in that area (Eulau), its possible that they spoke either early Germanic (the "Germanic Parent language" in the sense of Euler) or an early Celtic, but we ultimately don't know for certain (though both a probable) because these people were illiterate. My point merely is, if you posit the existence of some extinct, altogether separate branch of Indo-European (for the Lusatian culture, or the Urnfield culture), you need to demonstrate that from some corpus of lexical items you find somewhere. Like, we do know that the early Germanic speakers had extensive contact with Celtic speakers, the early Slavic speakers had prolonged contact with Germanic speakers, Finnic-Uralic had early contact with Balto-Slavic and Germanic and so on, or, as you extensively demonstrated, how the West Slavic tribes left a considerable legacy of place names in the eastern part of modern Germany. :)

    So, I'd like to know, what is your evidence for these "extinct" branches of your hypothesis?

    @ Sile, primarily: yes, the area of "Sarmatia" (in the Graeco-Roman sense) included approximately the area described, and this was purely a geographic term, as the ethnic groups were of different: Iranic (Roxolani, Alans, etc.), but certainly also Baltic (Galindians and Sudovians), Germanic (Frugundians, Goths, Bastarnae) and early Slavic (the Savari, perhaps?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    From what info I have gathered; the Old Thracian language group seems to be a bit relative to Slavic too. It also seems related to Hellenic (Greek) at times. I often wonder if Thracian was a cross-roads between Balto-Slavic and Hellenic/Anatolian IE languages.

    There are also rumors/theories that Thracian was originally called/or was a branch of Indo-Aryan; long before Greece gave name to the area of Thrace. A lot of this would make sense (if it were true), seeing as it seems Scythian descendents seem almost exclusively R1a.

    Thracians names such as Zalmoxis, Gebeleizis, Burebista, Sabazios, Decebalus, Darzelas. Also city names like Ziridava or Ziriduewa (based on several dialects, Dacian or Getae) for example.

    To me, it sounds very Greco-Slavic to me. Many Romanian descendents are Thracian and many of them appear to look very Slavic to me.

    If nobody told me these were Thracian names, I would easily mistaken them for Greek or Western Slavic (Polish, Slovak, Czech). They also appear more Baltic-looking to me, too.

    I think, from my research, all of the languages mentioned (Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, Greek) have/had similar grammatical syntax.
    What is "Greco-Slavic" to you?

    That makes no real sense to me, because Greek and the Balto-Slavic languages are very different branches of Indo-European. Greek, uniquely, retains reflexes of the old Indo-European "laryngeal" consonants (H1, H2, H3) before other consonants (as vowels e, a, o), while Balto-Slavic lost them. Greek is also different from Balto-Slavic in that its a "Centum" language (like Celtic, Germanic, Italic and Tocharian), while Balto-Slavic is a "Satem" language (like Albanian, Armenian, Indo-Iranic). Also, Greek has φ θ χ where Balto-Slavic has *b, *d, *g.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What is "Greco-Slavic" to you?

    That makes no real sense to me, because Greek and the Balto-Slavic languages are very different branches of Indo-European. Greek, uniquely, retains reflexes of the old Indo-European "laryngeal" consonants (H1, H2, H3) before other consonants (as vowels e, a, o), while Balto-Slavic lost them. Greek is also different from Balto-Slavic in that its a "Centum" language (like Celtic, Germanic, Italic and Tocharian), while Balto-Slavic is a "Satem" language (like Albanian, Armenian, Indo-Iranic). Also, Greek has φ θ χ where Balto-Slavic has *b, *d, *g.
    I thought Greek was Satem? Anyway, I said it was only a theory; meaning I was not passing it off as fact. And any observant person could notice that the Thracian language sounds quite similar to Greek. But as you stated; Greek probably isn't Satem. So is it rational for someone to assume that it could be in the middle of Balto-Slavic IE as well as Hellenic/Anatolian IE. Lots of Thracian words look Hellenic, but Thracian is a Satem language.

    Upon further analysis; Thracian appears to me, to be closest to Greek, but some aspects of it look Lithuanian; and Old Thracian IS a Satem language like Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    @ Sile, primarily: yes, the area of "Sarmatia" (in the Graeco-Roman sense) included approximately the area described, and this was purely a geographic term, as the ethnic groups were of different: Iranic (Roxolani, Alans, etc.), but certainly also Baltic (Galindians and Sudovians), Germanic (Frugundians, Goths, Bastarnae) and early Slavic (the Savari, perhaps?).
    all ok with me on what you state .

    -frugundians, some say are the burgundians

    - coastal galidians where called warmians, from western finland


    I will check out this SAVARI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I thought Greek was Satem? Anyway, I said it was only a theory; meaning I was not passing it off as fact. And any observant person could notice that the Thracian language sounds quite similar to Greek. But as you stated; Greek probably isn't Satem. So is it rational for someone to assume that it could be in the middle of Balto-Slavic IE as well as Hellenic/Anatolian IE. Lots of Thracian words look Hellenic, but Thracian is a Satem language.

    Upon further analysis; Thracian appears to me, to be closest to Greek, but some aspects of it look Lithuanian; and Old Thracian IS a Satem language like Baltic.
    about Thracian,
    we know Brygian were isotones with ancient Greek,
    we know a quantum of vocabulary that passed to koine and mainly modern Greek,
    from duridanov's work we see a connection with Baltic, but also with minor Asia, even Scottish, and Greek also
    some consider Brygian as the closest language to Greek, but majority is connecting Greek with Aryan,
    there is also the Armenian hypothesis, according which Thracian is connected with Armenian,
    the quantity of 'original' Thracian vocabulary is small,
    the 'expanded' vocabulary of searchers place it among Greek, Balto-Slavic(south Slavic), Albanian, and Germanic, although you might found some articals connecting it with Celtic, but very rare,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    there is also the Armenian hypothesis, according which Thracian is connected with Armenian,
    the quantity of 'original' Thracian vocabulary is small
    Ah really. Quite interesting! This would suggest why the Greco-Anatolian R1b sub-clade seen in Armenia and Anatolia, is also seen in high frequencies among Romanians, Bulgarians as well as the Albanians.

    This would also support my theory that Albanians may be a Western Thracian people (perhaps the Dardani?) or a Black Sea people.

    (There are also other theories of the Balkans regarding Ethnic origins. Such as the Slovenians being Venetians and the Croats and Bosnians being the real Illyrians. But let me not change the subject.)

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