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Thread: Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Ah really. Quite interesting! This would suggest why the Greco-Anatolian R1b sub-clade seen in Armenia and Anatolia, is also seen in high frequencies among Romanians, Bulgarians as well as the Albanians.
    I am currently reading - since the dorians origins when in modern Albania and that they took over greece from the myceaneans, then are the corintians the old dorians?, did they remember their past of only 400 years and retake their Albanians lands . They clearly where a power, they settled in sicily, they sent merchants to ancona and establish a corintian colony there and many other that I am reading

    This would also support my theory that Albanians may be a Western Thracian people (perhaps the Dardani?) or a Black Sea people.
    Linguistically found that they could be northern Moldova area

    (There are also other theories of the Balkans regarding Ethnic origins. Such as the Slovenians being Venetians and the Croats and Bosnians being the real Illyrians. But let me not change the subject.)
    some slovenians , some croats, some Bosnians
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Ah really. Quite interesting! This would suggest why the Greco-Anatolian R1b sub-clade seen in Armenia and Anatolia, is also seen in high frequencies among Romanians, Bulgarians as well as the Albanians.

    This would also support my theory that Albanians may be a Western Thracian people (perhaps the Dardani?) or a Black Sea people.

    (There are also other theories of the Balkans regarding Ethnic origins. Such as the Slovenians being Venetians and the Croats and Bosnians being the real Illyrians. But let me not change the subject.)
    About Bosnians being the real Illyrians is a discredited theory, put forth by a degenerated pseudo scientists from Serbia. But nowadays some Bosnian imams claim that they are Slavisized Illyrians. So do claim some Croats.
    Of course they have Illyrian genes of the population they absorbed. It could even be pockets where the same Illyrian population is still intact, but that does not make that population real Illyrians. Once they mixed with slavs they are right there 25% Illyrians.
    So anyone who believes the theory that Croats and Bosnian's are the real Illyrians has the head in the wrong place. They should have the legs where they have the head.
    What amazes me is the hate the south Slavs have for their real origin. Its a burning desire among them to be Europeans instead of Asiatic they really are.
    The theory of Albanian language being Thracian is been not supported by the majority of scientists. From Thracians we have now only toponims of towns. But Albanian language does not accept grammatically the order those words are put. That shows that Thracian and Albanian are different languages of the same family.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    some slovenians , some croats, some Bosnians
    The area of slovenia and upper croatia went first in a process of celticization and after that almost the entire part of northern illyria went in a process of romanization for centuries.
    After this in this lands came the slavs and slavinized them.

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    ........................................
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    About Bosnians being the real Illyrians is a discredited theory, put forth by a degenerated pseudo scientists from Serbia.
    Albanopolis
    No one scientist from Serbia write about this, few people in Serbia interested in this topic.

    But scientists from Great Britain, Western Europe, East Europe, Asia, and America more and more because new evidence.

    Now in scientific public is the belief that Bosnians can be descendants of Illyrians, I already gave opinions of European scientists of various disciplines that Albanians are not descedants of Illyrians.

  6. #106
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Please people, this thread is about Poland, Central Europe and Germanic and Slavic tribes. Not about the Illyrians.

    I'd like to say that "Illyrians" is a collective basket, as its very clear. There was not one "Illyrian" language.
    The area of the western Balkans (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia) spoke Liburnian in the Antiquity, which was a Centum language akin to (Adriatic) Venetic. Further inland, people spoke Celtic (such as the Scordisci). When the Romans conquered that area, the population eventually adoped Latin. I think I don't need to mention this, but the Slavic languages were newcomers on the Balkans during the Migration Period, as were they in much of Central Europe.

    If any one of the "Illyrian" languages was the ancestor of Albanian (the data situation is, if we're honest, too ambiguous to settle this for certain, in my opinion), then it would have been those further southeast (such as the Dalmatae). The alternative is that Albanian is related with Dacian (which would suggest that the Albanians moved to their current area during the Migration period - there's also the common corpus of Albanian-Romanian lexical items that would support this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I thought Greek was Satem?
    The name "Centum" and "Satem" derives from the word for "hundred" in the respective languages, because this is a word that was subjected to the sound change (plosives in the Centum languages, fricatives in the Satem languages). The Greek word for hundred is "ekaton" (εκατον), similar to Celtic (Welsh "cant", Irish "cead"), Latin ("centum"). The "h" in Germanic (English "hundred", German "Hundert") is a result of Grimm's Law. (in contrast, you have "šimtas" in Lithuanian, "sto" in Russian, "śata" in Hindi, "sad" in Persian, and so on). I might add that there are some Indo-European languages that developed Satem-like features independently (through the process called palatalization), the best example of this is French (a Romance language, derived from Latin, thus itself clearly a Centum language). Another example would be the extinct Luwian languages (part of the Anatolian language family).

    Greek also does exhibit a form of palatalization, but this does not involve the old "palatal consonants" from PIE (*k´, *g´, *gh´), for example: *djeus > *zeus.

    Anyway, I said it was only a theory; meaning I was not passing it off as fact. And any observant person could notice that the Thracian language sounds quite similar to Greek. But as you stated; Greek probably isn't Satem. So is it rational for someone to assume that it could be in the middle of Balto-Slavic IE as well as Hellenic/Anatolian IE. Lots of Thracian words look Hellenic, but Thracian is a Satem language.

    Upon further analysis; Thracian appears to me, to be closest to Greek, but some aspects of it look Lithuanian; and Old Thracian IS a Satem language like Baltic.
    I think the question of the Paleo-Balkan languages deserves another thread...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    all ok with me on what you state .

    -frugundians, some say are the burgundians

    - coastal galidians where called warmians, from western finland


    I will check out this SAVARI
    The Savari were one of the tribes inhabiting European Sarmatia. They may be identical with the later Medieval Severians. I concede this is very speculative, but they lived in approximately the area where you would except early Proto-Slavic speaking peoples to have been in the Classical period, even if the ethnic name "Slavs" is unrecorded before the Migration Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Please people, this thread is about Poland, Central Europe and Germanic and Slavic tribes. Not about the Illyrians.

    I'd like to say that "Illyrians" is a collective basket, as its very clear. There was not one "Illyrian" language.
    The area of the western Balkans (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia) spoke Liburnian in the Antiquity, which was a Centum language akin to (Adriatic) Venetic. Further inland, people spoke Celtic (such as the Scordisci). When the Romans conquered that area, the population eventually adoped Latin. I think I don't need to mention this, but the Slavic languages were newcomers on the Balkans during the Migration Period, as were they in much of Central Europe.

    If any one of the "Illyrian" languages was the ancestor of Albanian (the data situation is, if we're honest, too ambiguous to settle this for certain, in my opinion), then it would have been those further southeast (such as the Dalmatae). The alternative is that Albanian is related with Dacian (which would suggest that the Albanians moved to their current area during the Migration period - there's also the common corpus of Albanian-Romanian lexical items that would support this).



    The name "Centum" and "Satem" derives from the word for "hundred" in the respective languages, because this is a word that was subjected to the sound change (plosives in the Centum languages, fricatives in the Satem languages). The Greek word for hundred is "ekaton" (εκατον), similar to Celtic (Welsh "cant", Irish "cead"), Latin ("centum"). The "h" in Germanic (English "hundred", German "Hundert") is a result of Grimm's Law. (in contrast, you have "šimtas" in Lithuanian, "sto" in Russian, "śata" in Hindi, "sad" in Persian, and so on). I might add that there are some Indo-European languages that developed Satem-like features independently (through the process called palatalization), the best example of this is French (a Romance language, derived from Latin, thus itself clearly a Centum language). Another example would be the extinct Luwian languages (part of the Anatolian language family).

    Greek also does exhibit a form of palatalization, but this does not involve the old "palatal consonants" from PIE (*k´, *g´, *gh´), for example: *djeus > *zeus.



    I think the question of the Paleo-Balkan languages deserves another thread...
    Please focus on the topic! Its about Polish are they more Germanic or Slavic?
    They are completely Slavic, bingo!
    Ethnicity and haplogroups are not related so those poles are Slavic the first cousins of south Slavs.
    Even if it is one or tow Germans left in Poland that does not change anything.
    Now talking about Illyrians they are the forefathers of Albanians. Liburnians were a regional tribe like the Dardans (Kosovars) or Epiros (Tosk Albanians) etc...
    I know Slavs have tried before to be Illyrians but it has not worked.
    Slavs came from south Poland, their language proves this.
    I have noticed Slavs in this forum are searching for a new identity other than Slav.
    I am not understanding why are they doing this?
    Had I been a Slav I would have been proud of what I was. Slavs are not all bad and especially Poles are proud folks. I think if they read the stupidities of this thread they would be offended. They have enough reasons to be proud slavic Poles.
    I know a lot of them and Albs and Poles get along pretty good

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    Please focus on the topic! Its about Polish are they more Germanic or Slavic?
    They are completely Slavic, bingo!
    Ethnicity and haplogroups are not related so those poles are Slavic the first cousins of south Slavs.
    Even if it is one or tow Germans left in Poland that does not change anything.
    Now talking about Illyrians they are the forefathers of Albanians. Liburnians were a regional tribe like the Dardans (Kosovars) or Epiros (Tosk Albanians) etc...
    I know Slavs have tried before to be Illyrians but it has not worked.
    Slavs came from south Poland, their language proves this.
    I have noticed Slavs in this forum are searching for a new identity other than Slav.
    I am not understanding why are they doing this?
    Had I been a Slav I would have been proud of what I was. Slavs are not all bad and especially Poles are proud folks. I think if they read the stupidities of this thread they would be offended. They have enough reasons to be proud slavic Poles.
    I know a lot of them and Albs and Poles get along pretty good
    Topic is good, things are not black and white, and the truth is not cemented, things change with new scientific knowledge.

    And what you're talking about has no scientific basis, it is pure speculation.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    Please focus on the topic! Its about Polish are they more Germanic or Slavic?
    They are completely Slavic, bingo!
    Ethnicity and haplogroups are not related so those poles are Slavic the first cousins of south Slavs.
    Even if it is one or tow Germans left in Poland that does not change anything.
    That's the thing, as discussed before in this thread the answer is not that easy. Polish is a Slavic language, yes, no doubt about that, but 2000 years ago, much of the area of modern Poland was speaking Germanic languages. Also, there is linguistic evidence that when the Slavs expanded during the Migration Period, they must absorbed a large number of Germanic speakers. You have the reverse going on in the Middle Ages when East Francia expanded eastwards and absorbed the Slavic tribes (you still have a lot of Slavic places in modern eastern Germany). The point is that the division is not clear-cut.

    Now talking about Illyrians they are the forefathers of Albanians. Liburnians were a regional tribe like the Dardans (Kosovars) or Epiros (Tosk Albanians) etc... I know Slavs have tried before to be Illyrians but it has not worked.
    Sorry, as I said, this doesn't make sense, at all. In Liburnian, like in Venetic (and the Italic languages), word-initial Proto-Indo-European *bh-, *dh-, *gh- becomes *f-, *f-, *h-, while in Albanian, it becomes *b- , *d-, *g- (just like in all the "northern" Indo-European branches, ie. Celtic, Germanic, Balto-Slavic). Liburnian was not the ancestor of the Albanian language, and the Kosovars and the Tosk did not exist in the Classical Antiquity as ethnic groups.

    The Liburnians and other tribes of Illyria were Romanized (I might remind you that Albanian too has a very large share of Latin loanwords), and when the when the Slavs expanded onto the Balkans, they absorbed these Romance speakers. If you look at Croatia and Bosnia, you do have a large number of place names that are derived from earlier Latin names (e.g. "Salina" > "Solin"), as well as Celtic names (e.g. "Noviodunum" > "Drnovo"). This is a linguistic reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That's the thing, as discussed before in this thread the answer is not that easy. Polish is a Slavic language, yes, no doubt about that, but 2000 years ago, much of the area of modern Poland was speaking Germanic languages. Also, there is linguistic evidence that when the Slavs expanded during the Migration Period, they must absorbed a large number of Germanic speakers. You have the reverse going on in the Middle Ages when East Francia expanded eastwards and absorbed the Slavic tribes (you still have a lot of Slavic places in modern eastern Germany). The point is that the division is not clear-cut.



    Sorry, as I said, this doesn't make sense, at all. In Liburnian, like in Venetic (and the Italic languages), word-initial Proto-Indo-European *bh-, *dh-, *gh- becomes *f-, *f-, *h-, while in Albanian, it becomes *b- , *d-, *g- (just like in all the "northern" Indo-European branches, ie. Celtic, Germanic, Balto-Slavic). Liburnian was not the ancestor of the Albanian language, and the Kosovars and the Tosk did not exist in the Classical Antiquity as ethnic groups.

    The Liburnians and other tribes of Illyria were Romanized (I might remind you that Albanian too has a very large share of Latin loanwords), and when the when the Slavs expanded onto the Balkans, they absorbed these Romance speakers. If you look at Croatia and Bosnia, you do have a large number of place names that are derived from earlier Latin names (e.g. "Salina" > "Solin"), as well as Celtic names (e.g. "Noviodunum" > "Drnovo"). This is a linguistic reality.
    OK. But the topic makes no real sense. Poles are predominantly R1a which is beyond the reasonable doubt Slavic marker, while Germans are a melange of haplogroups. That means Germans are a melting pot of people.
    Poles are the cleanest Slavs. End of story. Polish language has Latin words. That does not make them Romans.
    Its clear story, why are you trying to extract fat from a mosquito.?

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    Taranis:

    wrong, poland, lithuania, latvia and estonia where never part of Sarmatae
    @ Sile, primarily: yes, the area of "Sarmatia" (in the Graeco-Roman sense) included approximately the area described, and this was purely a geographic term, as the ethnic groups were of different
    Indeed, the area was called Sarmatia Europaea (there was also Sarmatia Asiatica located farther east, behind the Don River) and it was a purely geographical term. Germania or Germania Magna were also purely geographical terms, because they did not correspond to boundaries of Germanic-speaking peoples. There were many Non-Germanic peoples living within the area of Germania Magna (for example numerous Celtic tribes), as well as there were some migrating Germanic tribes which at some point in time lived beyond the boundaries of Germania Magna.

    As I already wrote before in this thread, the area in question was called Sarmatia Europaea by ancient historians & geographers - for example by Poseidonius of Apameia, Pomponius Mela, Claudius Ptolemy, etc. Various authors saw the boundaries of Sarmatia Europaea - particularly its western boundaries with Germania Magna - differently. Poseidonius (born in 135 BC, died in 51 BC) saw the Germania-Sarmatia border along the Elbe River or somewhere between the Elbe River and the Oder River. Mela (died in 45 AD) saw it roughly along the Odra and the Lusatian Neisse Rivers (just like modern Polish-German border). And Ptolemy (born in 90 AD, died in 168 AD) saw the Germania-Sarmatia boundary along the Vistula River.

    Please notice that between the 2nd century BC and the 2nd century AD the Germania-Sarmatia boundary was moving eastward in time. Maybe it is just a coincidence that those authors had different views on where the boundary was located, but maybe indeed there were population movements which were pushing the boundary in eastern direction - from roughly the Elbe/Oder to the Vistula in 300 years.

    For the Urnfielders in that area (Eulau), its possible that they spoke either early Germanic (the "Germanic Parent language" in the sense of Euler) or an early Celtic, but we ultimately don't know for certain (though both a probable) because these people were illiterate.
    Germanic language emerged in Scandinavia roughly during the Nordic Bronze Age, according to the most commonly accepted theory at least. So Corded Ware people from Eulau didn't speak Germanic, because they lived in a different geographical area and in a different time period.

    R1a obviously was in these areas before Slavs but those were different subclades of R1a. For example R1a Z284 which was characteristic of Proto-Germanic population apparently. Do you have data on types of R1a subclades in different regions of Germany and Austria today?

    R1a L664 that you mentioned is not found in Eastern Germany and in Austria today (not in high frequencies at least).

    AFAIK great majority of R1a in Germany-Austria today are typically Slavic subclades. Especially West & South-West Slavic ones.

    Also areas with highest frequency of R1a in Germany & Austria are the same areas which at some point of history had predominantly Slavic population. Though of course after WW2 there were huge population movements (expulsion of easternmost Germans), which contributed to the territorial dispersion of R1a over entire Germany. I'm sure that large part of R1a in modern Western Germany came during and after the end of WW2. A lot also came with Polish immigration. Not to mention internal migrations from Communist Germany to West Germany in the second half of the 20th century.

    My point merely is, if you posit the existence of some extinct, altogether separate branch of Indo-European (for the Lusatian culture, or the Urnfield culture), you need to demonstrate that from some corpus of lexical items you find somewhere.
    There are many toponyms in modern territory of Poland which are of unknown or seriously disputed linguistic origin. For example Vistula and Oder are among such unclear toponyms (just to mention the two largest rivers in Poland). It is possible that these toponyms come from an extinct Indo-European language. Though it is also possible that some of them are Pre-Indo-European in origin (this is sometimes claimed for Vistula).

    Later I will try to find and post here something more about those hypothetical Venedic-speaking peoples.

    It is not only my hypothesis - there were scholars who proposed the existence of a Venedic branch of Indo-European languages. They are hardly the only extinct branch of IE languages - other of now extinct branches of Indo-European languages were for example: Sorothaptic, Ligurian, Phrygian, Dacian, Thracian, Lusitanian, maybe also Illyrian (because not everyone agrees that Albanian language is a direct continuation of Illyrian languages).

    and early Slavic (the Savari, perhaps?).
    They were called the Stavani (Stavanoi) by Ptolemy. Maybe another source calls them the Savari?

    Ptolemy also records another tribe which could very likely be Slavic-speaking, the Slovenoi.

    Ptolemy wrote that they lived much farther east than the Stavanoi, because along the Volga River:

    Souobenoi, Sloveni (Greek: Σουοβενοι) - according to Ptolemy (around year 150 CE) a tribe living at the Volga River (Latin: Rha). Recording ou means phonteically a sound similar in pronunciation to English w, while Greek β can be read as v. This is why their name should be pronounced as Słovenoi (in phonetic recording [swovεnoɪ]). There exists a hypothesis equating this tribe with Slavs, supported by similarity to the oldest own name of Slavs from Slavic own written texts - *Słoveni [1] or Slověni [2].

    [1] Gołąb, Zbigniew (1992). The Origins of the Slavs: A Linguist's view. Columbus: Slavica Publishers, 1992
    [2] http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwpl...html#slowianie
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-11-14 at 20:12.

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    2000 years ago, much of the area of modern Poland was speaking Germanic languages.
    Sure but question is to what extent were East Germanic-speaking tribes genetically Germanic ???

    For example according to Jordanes Goths came to Pomerania from Scandinavia, in a relatively small number*. They increased in numbers by absorbing local peoples. Later when the Goths "rolled" towards the Roman border, they continued absorbing tribes which dwelled on their way.

    *Jordanes wrote that Goths - led by King Berig - came on 3 ships. Let's estimate there were ca. 100 people on each ship. This is 300 people:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berig

    Jordanes even explicitly mentions (by name) some of the peoples that joined them.

    So it seems that East Germanic trbes were a huge melting pot of genes and ethnicities, even though their lingua franca was East Germanic.

    I linked two video lectures "Rethinking barbarian invasions through genomic history" by Patrick Geary. Geary claims he was unable to find Germanic genes in places where East Germanic tribes settled. He concludes that East Germanic migrations did not take place.

    My opinion is that his conclusion is wrong - East Germanic migrations did take place (which is confirmed by historical accounts and by archaeology), but those tribes were very heterogeneous in genomic terms, so it is very hard to identify their traces today.

    =================================

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis
    and early Slavic (the Savari, perhaps?).
    They were called the Stavani (Stavanoi) by Ptolemy. Maybe another source calls them the Savari?

    Ptolemy also records another tribe which could very likely be Slavic-speaking, the Slovenoi.

    Ptolemy wrote that they lived much farther east than the Stavanoi, because along the Volga River
    Back to the Savari - sorry, I thought that you twisted the name (from the Stavani), but they were actually two different tribes!

    Both of them could be Slavic (or Proto-Slavic) - both the Stavani and the Savari. Here is the list of peoples living in Sarmatia Europaea according to Ptolemy - in most cases it is hard to identify ethnicity / language. With big red dots I marked tribes which were probably Baltic-speaking:

    http://s4.postimg.org/yqchybkq5/Euro...tia_tribes.png



    Here are possible identifications for these probably Baltic-speaking tribes:

    Ptolemy's Galindai (Galindae) = Medieval Galindians
    Ptolemy's Sudinoi (Sudini) = Medieval Sudovians
    Ptolemy's Sali = Medieval Selonians
    Ptolemy's Carvones (Carbones) or Cariones or Careotae = Medieval Curonians

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    Its a burning desire among them to be Europeans instead of Asiatic they really are.
    Indo-Europeans as a whole originated in the Eurasian steppe. For example Greeks were originally the Seima-Turbino archaeological culture of Russia. So Slavs are just as Asiatic as all other Indo-European branches. Also do not confuse geography with anthropology - R1a IE peoples did not look like East or South Asians:

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...l#pigmentation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androno...re#Ancient_DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    OK. But the topic makes no real sense. Poles are predominantly R1a which is beyond the reasonable doubt Slavic marker, while Germans are a melange of haplogroups. That means Germans are a melting pot of people.
    Poles are the cleanest Slavs. End of story. Polish language has Latin words. That does not make them Romans.
    Its clear story, why are you trying to extract fat from a mosquito.?
    " Poles are predominantly R1a which is beyond the reasonable doubt Slavic marker"

    So , you are saying there was no R1a in poland before the slavs arrived in the 6th century AD

    "poles are the cleanest Slavs " cleanest, what does he really mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Indeed, the area was called Sarmatia Europaea (there was also Sarmatia Asiatica located farther east, behind the Don River) and it was a purely geographical term. Germania or Germania Magna were also purely geographical terms, because they did not correspond to boundaries of Germanic-speaking peoples. There were many Non-Germanic peoples living within the area of Germania Magna (for example numerous Celtic tribes), as well as there were some migrating Germanic tribes which at some point in time lived beyond the boundaries of Germania Magna.

    As I already wrote before in this thread, the area in question was called Sarmatia Europaea by ancient historians & geographers - for example by Poseidonius of Apameia, Pomponius Mela, Claudius Ptolemy, etc. Various authors saw the boundaries of Sarmatia Europaea - particularly its western boundaries with Germania Magna - differently. Poseidonius (born in 135 BC, died in 51 BC) saw the Germania-Sarmatia border along the Elbe River or somewhere between the Elbe River and the Oder River. Mela (died in 45 AD) saw it roughly along the Odra and the Lusatian Neisse Rivers (just like modern Polish-German border). And Ptolemy (born in 90 AD, died in 168 AD) saw the Germania-Sarmatia boundary along the Vistula River.

    Please notice that between the 2nd century BC and the 2nd century AD the Germania-Sarmatia boundary was moving eastward in time. Maybe it is just a coincidence that those authors had different views on where the boundary was located, but maybe indeed there were population movements which were pushing the boundary in eastern direction - from roughly the Elbe/Oder to the Vistula in 300 years.



    Germanic language emerged in Scandinavia roughly during the Nordic Bronze Age, according to the most commonly accepted theory at least. So Corded Ware people from Eulau didn't speak Germanic, because they lived in a different geographical area and in a different time period.

    R1a obviously was in these areas before Slavs but those were different subclades of R1a. For example R1a Z284 which was characteristic of Proto-Germanic population apparently. Do you have data on types of R1a subclades in different regions of Germany and Austria today?

    R1a L664 that you mentioned is not found in Eastern Germany and in Austria today (not in high frequencies at least).

    AFAIK great majority of R1a in Germany-Austria today are typically Slavic subclades. Especially West & South-West Slavic ones.

    Also areas with highest frequency of R1a in Germany & Austria are the same areas which at some point of history had predominantly Slavic population. Though of course after WW2 there were huge population movements (expulsion of easternmost Germans), which contributed to the territorial dispersion of R1a over entire Germany. I'm sure that large part of R1a in modern Western Germany came during and after the end of WW2. A lot also came with Polish immigration. Not to mention internal migrations from Communist Germany to West Germany in the second half of the 20th century.



    There are many toponyms in modern territory of Poland which are of unknown or seriously disputed linguistic origin. For example Vistula and Oder are among such unclear toponyms (just to mention the two largest rivers in Poland). It is possible that these toponyms come from an extinct Indo-European language. Though it is also possible that some of them are Pre-Indo-European in origin (this is sometimes claimed for Vistula).

    Later I will try to find and post here something more about those hypothetical Venedic-speaking peoples.
    Just remember that there where ancient people in Poland who where not germanic nor slavic, but became one or th eother due to learning the languages of germanic or slavic


    Venedic language?............no such thing has been found except the fabricated language of some Poles using Latin alphabet on a cyrillic language

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Both of them could be Slavic (or Proto-Slavic) - both the Stavani and the Savari. Here is the list of peoples living in Sarmatia Europaea according to Ptolemy - in most cases it is hard to identify ethnicity / language. With big red dots I marked tribes which were probably Baltic-speaking:

    http://s4.postimg.org/yqchybkq5/Euro...tia_tribes.png



    Here are possible identifications for these probably Baltic-speaking tribes:

    Ptolemy's Galindai (Galindae) = Medieval Galindians
    Ptolemy's Sudinoi (Sudini) = Medieval Sudovians
    Ptolemy's Sali = Medieval Selonians
    Ptolemy's Carvones (Carbones) or Cariones or Careotae = Medieval Curonians
    Add Ossi, Peucini and venedae as baltic speakers.............all west-baltic speakers except Peucini which are east-baltic

    also remember ...an AE ending to a name indicates it is made up of other minor tribes and not "pure"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    " Poles are predominantly R1a which is beyond the reasonable doubt Slavic marker"

    So , you are saying there was no R1a in poland before the slavs arrived in the 6th century AD

    "poles are the cleanest Slavs " cleanest, what does he really mean?




    With the "Cleanest'' I mean good genetic hygiene. 45% of Russians are Genghis Khans sons and daughters so they are not clean. Serbs are 55% Romanians, Gypsies, Turks and Albanians and so on...
    So if one wants to see a real Slav should go to Poland.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What the heck, albanopolis? Such racist nonsense won't be tolerated here. Banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Add Ossi, Peucini and venedae as baltic speakers.............all west-baltic speakers except Peucini which are east-baltic

    also remember ...an AE ending to a name indicates it is made up of other minor tribes and not "pure"
    How do you know Ossi, Peucini and Venedae were Baltic speakers? And especially that Peucini were East Balts? I mean I am all for it! :) Just want to know the reason.

    Neither of those linguistically sound very Baltic to me (except Peucini). Galindae sounds Baltic. Actually I would even try to raise a possibility that AE here is simply because of Baltic grammar plural - Galindai is how they would be named in plural by modern Lithuanian.

    Linguistically Arsietae (if spelled with 'ie'), Gelones, Piengytae, Tanaitae, Veltae sound more Baltic-ish. Borusci - Prussians?

    P.s. just for fun:
    Also Pagyritae is a candidate. Gyra is drink. Pagyriti or similar should be Lith for to drink. In Latvian this is changed to 'padzerties'. And 'pagiras' is only used for 'hangover'
    Last edited by arvistro; 01-11-14 at 23:43. Reason: pagyritae

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    How do you know Ossi, Peucini and Venedae were Baltic speakers?
    Exactly. There is no any direct or obvious evidence that the Venedae were originally Baltic-speakers. But it is possible - even quite certain - that some part of the Venedae were assimilated into the Baltic peoples. Moreover - the Venedae and peoples of very similar names could be found in several parts of Europe (and even in Asia Minor), where Balts were clearly not present. Such Venedic tribes lived at the Adriatic Sea, in Asia Minor, in the Balkans, in Gaul, along the Baltic Sea and in Central and Eastern Europe. There are various theories about the ethno-linguistic affiliation of those peoples. Some scholars think that they were Pre-Indo-Europeans. But more frequent are opinions that they were Indo-Europeans. There is also no agreement whether all peoples of this name belonged originally to the same language family, or maybe they belonged to several different families, but closely related (which explains similarity of names). A popular opinion is that this ethnonym (Venedae and similar names) comes from terms: "to love", "love", "family", "kinship", "friend". Another opinion is that it meant something like "people who live near water". Obviously the term itself had common linguistic origin. No matter who had been the original Venedic peoples, it is quite obvious that they eventually got assimilated by various ethnic groups. Some of the Venedae got assimilated by Balts, some by Slavs (probably that's why West Slavs were called Wends by Medieval Germanic-speakers; also Jordanes mentioned Venedi as one of three main sub-divisions of early historical Slavs), some by Celts, some by Italic peoples, etc. Considering how dispersed in Europe were the Venedic peoples, they could be either some very mobile IE-speakers or maybe they were an Indo-European name for some category of Pre-Indo-European populations. Maybe this is how Indo-European migrants called those of Pre-Indo-European tribes which were their allies and friends?

    On the other hand, it could be an Indo-European name used by some part of Indo-Europeans to describe themselves.

    After all for example "Slavs" means either "we famous people" or "speakers of our language". "Deutschen" means "we belonging to the people".

    "Swedes" also means "we our people" and "Swede" means "a person belonging to us" (from PIE root "swobho" - our).

    These are common meanings of Indo-European ethnonyms.

    So, "Venedae" could mean "we who are friends to each other", or something like this. Not that much different.

    BTW - Ptolemy has "Venedae" as one peoples, and then he has "Greater Venedae" as numerous tribes.

    Peucini
    Peucini were rather Celtic or Germanic (could be also Germanized Celts). See Tacitus.

    =================================

    Boundaries according to Ptolemy (before Ptolemy western border of Sarmatia was considered to be more to the west):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Exactly. There is no any direct or obvious evidence that the Venedae were originally Baltic-speakers. But it is possible - even quite certain - that some part of the Venedae were assimilated into the Baltic peoples. Moreover - the Venedae and peoples of very similar names could be found in several parts of Europe and even Asia where Balts were clearly not present. Such tribes lived at the Adriatic Sea, in Asia Minor, in the Balkans, in Gaul, at the Baltic Sea and in Central and Eastern Europe. There are various theories about the ethno-linguistic affiliation of those peoples. Some scholars think that they were Pre-Indo-Europeans. But more frequent are opinions that they were Indo-Europeans. There is also no agreement whether all peoples of this name belonged to the same language family, or maybe they belonged to several different families, but closely related (which explains similarity of names). A popular opinion is that this ethnonym (Venedae and similar names) comes from terms: "to love", "love", "family", "kinship", "friend". Another opinion is that it meant something like "people who live near water". Obviously the term had common linguistic origin. No matter who had been the original Venedic peoples, it is quite obvious that they eventually got assimilated by various ethnic groups. Some of the Venedae got assimilated by Balts, some by Slavs (hence West Slavs were called Wends by Medieval Germanic-speakers), some by Celts, some by Italic peoples, etc. Considering how dispersed in Europe were the Venedic peoples, they could be either some very mobile IE-speakers or maybe they were an Indo-European name for some category of Pre-Indo-European populations. Maybe this is how Indo-European migrants called those of Pre-Indo-European tribes which were their allies and friends?
    2002 russian papers on archeological flatbed graves associated with the baltic coastal area, they even name the tribes and show it on the map...........IIRC, ossi where part of the aestii confederation .

    in regards to venedae .........ae means mixed minor tribes.........its different if you say venedi
    Venedi tribe was absorbed into only the gothic race ( their western coastal neighbours) around 200AD , they did not exist after this .........their know period of existence ran from ~350BC to 200AD.

    Most likely Venedi, Veneti was name given by Roman historians after the Roman word Venetus, which means blue/green Sea colour. All these Roman tribes that the Roman where unsure of and lived by the sea got this name

    AE ending , same as sarmatae is different to sarmatian ............sarmatian is more exacting, sarmatae is a mixed group...............you know there is even Montes Sarmatae ( carpathian mountains ), which before this was called Montes Bastanae

    There is not even a Venetic language, sure people say there is but its 95% the same as raetic and camunic langauges, IMO, the veneti took it from it owners the Euganei people.
    THere is one person who spent 10 years on the venetic language ( 2002-2012) , its nearly 100 pages if I recall and his claim is that it is Finnic in origin. ......I have my doubts on this.

    http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Neither of those linguistically sound very Baltic to me (except Peucini). Galindae sounds Baltic. Actually I would even try to raise a possibility that AE here is simply because of Baltic grammar plural - Galindai is how they would be named in plural by modern Lithuanian.
    ae is a greek ending word used also by Roman historians

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    I do not see the option "mostly Baltic".
    Would not be possible that a serious percentage of at least paternal lines are from Baltic people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Some of the Venedae got assimilated by Balts, some by Slavs (probably that's why West Slavs were called Wends by Medieval Germanic-speakers; also Jordanes mentioned Venedi as one of three main sub-divisions of early historical Slavs),
    Wends comes from Vandal confederation and was used my western northern germanics to mean foreigner, when the vandals left on their migration the slavic veleti people replaced the vandals in the area that vandals once lived. after a few centuries the germanics began the wendish crusades to oust the Veleti .
    The swedish monarchy still to this day claim ownership of the wendish people.........they do not mean slavs, but the ancient vandals who originated from southern Sweden before moving to the south baltic coast.

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