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Thread: Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    On the "Venedi", in my opinion, they were either 1) Baltic or 2) undifferentiated Balto-Slavic (based on the timing - 2nd century AD, it could be still possible to argue for the latter).
    - Ptolemy places them clearly along the shore of the Baltic Sea.
    - The "Venedic" mountains are certainly not the Carpathians, I'm not sure where exactly they are (today, in the Kaliningrad Oblast of Russia?). There can be no doubt about it because Ptolemy gives coordinates for the Venedic mountains, and these place them in vicinity to the Baltic, in the general area of the Baltic tribes also listed by Ptolemy.

    EDIT: I might add that Ptolemy lists the Carpathians mountains separately, as "Καρπατης ορος" (Karpatēs oros), marking part of the border between European Sarmatia and Dacia.

    I think for the identity of the Venedi, Tacitus (part 46) describes the differences between Bastarnae (Peucini), Venedi and Fenni in detail:

    - he says that the language of the Bastarnae is similar to the Germanic one (from which we can conjecture, the Venedi and the Fenni spoke a different language).
    - he says that the Venedi are like the Germanic people in so far as that they lived in permanent settlements (but in contrast to the nomadic Sarmatae).

    So, in my opinion (I will get to the Lusatian culture later), the construction of a "Venedic" language is unnecessary here, as the Venedi of the classical sources were probably Balto-Slavic peoples. Its possible that the term "Venedi" was a Germanic exonym, and if that is the case its plausible that the later term "Wends" (for the Slavs) was just a logical continuation of the name.
    Analysis of these ethnonyms has shown that all the peoples of the Venedian Gulf known toPtolemy — Veneds, Veltae, Ossi, Carbones, Careo-tae, Sali — are identified as the population of the south-eastern Baltics in the area between the Vistulaand Western Dvina.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  2. #152
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    ptolemy map



    Under the V for Venedae is a circle indicating Venedic montes, under this is the tribe Gythones, under them Finni tribe.

    east of Gythones are the Galindae, next to them sudini ( both old Prussian tribes).........placement of Venedae reflects the same place for the old-prussian tribe the WARMIANS


    The venedic montes are between the modern cities of Elblag and Milejewo

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    I have not much time so I will only reply to one post now (rest later):

    Mihaitzateo:

    Going back to Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, question is how many Lithuanians were absorbed as Poles?
    Compared to the overall number of Poles in Europe, not so many Lithuanians were absorbed (after all, Lithuanians were never very numerous).

    I'm quite sure that more Belarusians were Polonized than Lithuanians, but some of those Belarusians were themselves Slavicized Lithuanians (or other Balts). Before Polish culture became dominant in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Old Belarusian culture and language had been dominant there.

    Typical haplogroups for Lithuanians and Latvians are N1c1 and R1a. I think the amount of N1c1 haplogroup might indicate Baltic ancestry:

    Amount of N1c haplogroup in Poles from Poland and in Belarusians from Belarus:

    First, regional distribution of N1c (old N3) in Belarus (northern part has over twice as much N1c as other parts) - from Dienekes:

    Northern Belarus - ca. 18,9%
    Central Belarus - ca. 8,8%
    Southern Belarus - ca. 8,1%

    And now average percentage of people with N1c1 haplogroup in Belarus (average % for entire country) and in Poland:

    Belarus (average) - ca. 10,1% (according to one Russian study)
    Poles from Poland - ca. 5,8% (according to the same study)

    So both directly (Polonization of Lithuanian-speakers) and indirectly (Polonization of Belarusianized Lithuanians) perhaps quite a large number of Lithuanians was absorbed. The presence of Poles in the Lithuanian-Belarusian borderland is the result of Polish settlement in this area throughout centuries and of Polonization of local peoples. The group which was especially "vulnerable" to Polonization were Belarusian-speaking Roman Catholics. They actually called their language "prosta mova" ("simple speech"), not Belarusian. Those people were choosing Polish identity because they spoke a Slavic language (unlike their Roman Catholic Lithuanian-speaking neighbours in the north), but they were Roman Catholics (unlike their East Slavic-speaking Orthodox neighbours in the south-east). They also lived intermingled with Polish settlers and under strong influence of Polish culture (cities and towns in Southern Lithuania and in Northern Belarus were mostly Polish-speaking apart from Jews, nobility in the countryside was also Polish-speaking).

    Many Roman Catholics from Belarus identified as Poles even if they were Belarusian-speakers.

    I do not know what is the difference between R1A1 branch which is Slavic and R1A1 branch which is Baltic
    I can give you info about several of major subclades of R1a. As far as I know:

    L260 is common in West Slavs (Poland - 17,2%) and Western Ukrainians (Lviv - 9,1%), but rare in East Slavs, Balts (Russians - 3,2%; Belarusians - 3,3%; Lithuanians - 1,4%) and South Slavs.

    Z92 is common in East Slavs (Belarusians - 11,8%; Russians - 10,8%) and Balts (Lithuanians - 7,2%), but rare in West Slavs (Poles - at least 1,7%), South Slavs and Western Ukrainians.

    Z280 (apart from Z92) is common in all Slavs and in Balts (Russians - 27,9%; Ukrainians from Lviv - 25,3%; Poles - 26,8%; Belarusians - 23,6%; Croats - 22,0%; Lithuanians - 21,5%).

    M458 (apart from L260) is present in all Slavs and Balts, but most common in West Slavs & Belarusians (Belarusians - 12,1%; Poles - 9,4%; Ukrainians from Lviv - 9,1%; Russians - 6,0%; Lithuanians - 5,0%; Croats - 3,0%).

    As for I2 haplogroup:

    I2a1b is present in all Slavs and Balts, but most common in East and South Slavs (Croats - 37,8%; Ukrainians from Lviv - 22,1%; Belarusians - 17,9%; Russians - 11,7%; Poles - 6,4%; Lithuanians - 3,5%).

    All these percentages are taken from one Russian study. Other studies can show other percentages, of course.

    Here is the study in question: http://s11.postimg.org/khn67kfjn/R1a_Slavs_2.png

    The original graph (in Russian): http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1304/c6/9b1c4260cc94.jpg

    Eupedia website has slightly different proportions for haplogroups.

    For example according to Eupedia website in Poland N1c is 4% not 5,8%.

    ============================

    Anyway - Z280 seems to be the most "Balto-Slavic" subclade of R1a. Maybe it was common among Balto-Slavs before they split.

    ============================

    One of reasons why Lithuanians have in recent history had an aversion to Poles is because almost all of Medieval Lithuanian elites became culturally and linguistically Polonized throughout history. In the early 1800s Lithuanian language was practically limited just to peasants, while all of nobility, intelligentsia and of Non-Jewish urban dwellers in these regions spoke Polish and identified as ethnic Poles.

    The only exception was in the region of Samogitia, where many Lithuanian-speaking nobles survived (they spoke local Samogitian dialect). But those Samogitian nobles, despite being Lithuanian-speaking, did not have a separate nationalism, but felt unity with Polish-speakers at that time.

    This is illustrated by a song of Samogitians of Telsiai region from the Polish-Russian War of 1830-1831 (aka the November Uprising):

    [see next post for words of this songs]

    In the 19th - early 20th centuries, when education became common, many smart Lithuanian peasants graduated from new high schools and universities, and new Lithuanian-speaking intelligentsia emerged. This is how the so called "Lithuanian national revival" started.

    Naturally Lithuanian nationalism cherishes mostly Early Medieval times as the glorious period of their past. At that time Pagan Lithuanian culture flourished, while the decline of Lithuanian culture started already with the political expansion of Lithuania into East Slavic principalities which were politically fragmented but had rich Greek Orthodox, Christian culture, which was "higher" than Lithuanian Paganism. Already before the adoption (through Polish influence) of Roman Catholicism as religion, most of Lithuanian society had been Orthodox Christians and Slavic-speakers.

    Old Belarusian was the official language of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. So with expansion and Christianization (both Orthodox and Catholic) started the decline of "native Lithuanian" culture and gradual Belarusianization and Polonization.

    After the 16th century, Polish and Latin replaced Old Belarusian as main languages of the Grand Duchy.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-11-14 at 21:38.

  4. #154
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    Gieysmie żiemaycziu Telszu pawieta wayno metu 1831:

    Dabar lenkai naprapule
    Kol żemaitiai gyvi
    Kad visi prie ginkło pule
    Tad ir bus szczastlivi

    Lenkai, lietuviai, żemaitiai draugibie
    Kayp visada buvom tayp busim vyinibie

    Ar maż pralijom aszaru
    Kad kożnam rudyni
    Rekrutams ukazai cara
    Lieb imt paskutini
    Wayka motinai o seserei broli

    Nebe mums iau poniawosi
    Prakeiktas maskoli

    Kaktas musu ne bus skustas
    Ney żwangins gielżiniai
    O Sybiras visad pustas
    Neb grażos minyai

    Wysi vyrai eikim newale numesti

    Neprietieli musu pakarop dawesti

    Gana vieros papeykimo
    Gana jau kientieti
    O diel puszku atliejimo
    Warpus nujemkieti

    Joug ir Diewas Danguy
    Te Dieva teysibie
    Duos lenkams, lijtuviams,
    Żemaitiams vienibie

    Trisdeszimtis sekmie metu
    Kayp carai czie wałda
    Kam ir spakaini wieta?
    Kamy Diewui małda?
    Gins virus y padvadas, nubiauros
    tau buta
    Yr mergaytiems yr moterims siułodami
    knuta

    Jug żemaitis kożnas turi
    Titnago striełbeli
    O dieł wajska ims isz buri
    Tinkama żyrgeli
    Oniekie tau sako: tunkart gausi mani
    Kad iszginsi ysz Żemaicziu
    Neprietieli szuni

    Eykim wisi jemt Pałanga
    O łaywais nupłauksma
    Stalicziop su walia Danga
    Yr cara sugausma

    Tad sugryżies namon
    Kriżius pastatysma
    Yr Yszganima Metus
    Ant ju paraszisma.

    In English:

    Song of Samogitians of Telsiai county during the war of 1831:

    The Poles have not yet perished
    So long as the Samogitians still live
    Everyone has taken up arms
    So we will be happy

    Poles, Lithuanians, Samogitians
    Always live in peace with each other
    We have been and still are in unity

    Weren't enough tears shed
    When during salty years
    With use of knouts
    In accordance with Tsarist orders
    Conscripted into the army
    Were mother's last son and sister's last brother?

    You are not going to rule here
    You damned Muscovite

    You will not shave our heads anymore
    You won't hear the clang of handcuffs
    And Siberia, desolated
    Will be ill remembered

    Come on, boys, liberate yourselves from the yoke

    Our enemy
    Shall be humiliated

    Let's put an end to religious persecutions
    Let's put an end to sufferings and dungeons

    Let's put an end to recasting bells into enemy cannons

    There is God in Heaven
    Let the God's will cause
    Poles, Lithuanians and Samogitians
    To unite together in one rank

    It has been thirty years
    Of the occupation by Tsardom
    Who and where can hide before it?
    Where can we praise the God?
    They will drive away our men
    They will plunder our houses
    And threaten with knouts
    Our women and girls

    But each of us, the Samogitians
    Has his gun loaded
    And will take with him to the army
    A first class horse
    The girl tells you: I will be yours
    When from our Samogitia
    You drive away the enemy - dog

    We must march on Palanga
    From which we will sail on ships
    To Moscow, God's will
    And we will capture the Tsar

    And when we come back home
    We will construct crosses
    And engrave on them
    The Year of Liberation


    ===========================================

    Similar Polish-Lithuanian unity in fight against Russian occupation of the Commonwealth could also be observed in the January Uprising (1863-1864):



    Only in the 2nd half of the 19th century new type of nationalism, based on language rather than on common history, divided Poles and Lithuanians.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sile - Venetic language you are talking about was probably one of Italic languages (though its name is not necessarily of Italic origin).

    There was also Wendisch language (name for some of West Slavic dialects) and Windic language (Winds was the old name for Slovenes).

    Today there is a language called Avar (in Dagestan), it belongs to Caucasian family and it rather has nothing to do with Medieval Avars.



    The Veleti lived (in historical times) west of the Oder River in what is now eastern half of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and in Brandenburg.

    Apart from the Veleti there were also the Obodrites - they lived west of the Veleti, roughly along the Elbe River.

    South of the Veleti and the Obodrites lived the Lusatians-Sorbs.

    It is assumed that those tribes shaped themselves in areas more to the east, and then migrated westward, like here:



    Name of the Obodrites comes from Oder River ("ob Odra" was Slavic for "near the Oder"; Obodrites - these who live near the Oder).

    But in historical times (since the moment when they were first mentioned in a written source) they lived along the Elbe River.

    So the Obodrites adopted their name from the Odra River, but later they migrated westward towards the Elbe River.
    I see no documentation that the Lusatians are slavic.

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    venedae are west-baltic culture, flatbed grave system .
    since slavic language came out of baltic languages in the hinterland , it clear the term balto-slavic is a modern terminology and should not be applied to ancient times

    The traditional view is that the Balto-Slavic languages split into two branches, Baltic and Slavic, with each branch developing as a single common language (Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic) for some time afterwards. Proto-Baltic is then thought to have split into East Baltic and West Baltic branches. However, more recent scholarship has suggested that there was no unified Proto-Baltic stage, but that Proto-Balto-Slavic split directly into three groups: Slavic, East Baltic and West Baltic.[12][13] Under this view, the Baltic family is paraphyletic, and consists of all Balto-Slavic languages that are not Slavic. This would imply that Proto-Baltic, the last common ancestor of all Baltic languages, would be identical to Proto-Balto-Slavic itself, rather than distinct from it.

    Finally, there is a minority of scholars who argue that Baltic descended directly from Proto-Indo-European, without an intermediate common Balto-Slavic stage. They argue that the many similarities and shared innovations between Baltic and Slavic are due to several millennia of contact between the groups, rather than shared heritage.[14]

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Please notice that between the 2nd century BC and the 2nd century AD the Germania-Sarmatia boundary was moving eastward in time. Maybe it is just a coincidence that those authors had different views on where the boundary was located, but maybe indeed there were population movements which were pushing the boundary in eastern direction - from roughly the Elbe/Oder to the Vistula in 300 years.


    this is because the non-slavic population was being absorbed into germanic society ..........since Vandals had a confederation system of many tribes ( which I named in early threads ), then these tribes where not all germanic .

    The Bastanae seems to be the most famous of the not "pure" germanic people, ..........maybe Peucini indicates a baltic tribe of the bastanae, ..then again, maybe not

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    I see no documentation that the Lusatians are slavic.
    They speak a Slavic language, so they are Slavic. For your information - Slavic, Germanic, etc. are linguistic terms. They denote linguistic groups.

    Many people from the New World (Americas, Australia - like you -, etc.) are confused about such things.

    They all speak English or Spanish, etc., and belong to very young nations, so they differentiate between themselves with use of "ancestry", instead of other things. I call this phenomenon - "The New World Identity Crisis". You see, people in Europe usually don't think of themselves as "Slavs" or "Balts".

    New World nations are still very much "tribal societies". Old World nations and ethnic groups usually don't have this "tribalism" anymore.

    There are Americans, but within Americans there are such "tribes" - German-Americans, Polish-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc.

    Old World identities are national & ethno-cultural, not "genetic" or "ancestral". A Pole is first and foremost a Pole. And whether "Slavic" or "Germanic" is irrelevant. Germans in Europe also identify as "just Germans" - they don't care whether their ancestors were Celts, Scandinavians, Balts or Slavs.

    I also don't care so much who were my distant ancestors, though I know that I have ancestors from several distinct ethnic backgrounds and regions.

    since slavic language came out of baltic languages in the hinterland
    Slavic language most certainly did not come out of Baltic language. Balto-Slavic language was not Baltic language. And actually genetic data indicates that Balts emerged when part of Balto-Slavs mixed with (or absorbed) some Non-Indo-Europeans of N1c1 haplogroup, while the rest of Balto-Slavs did not mix with those N1c1 groups (and these became Slavs). So rather Balts came out of "Slavs" (Balto-Slavs) - not inversely. Also it is commonly believed that Slavic languages - especially Polish (as far as I know) - are closer to the original Proto-IE language, than Baltic languages.

    The idea that Slavs emerged from Balts is quite funny considering that Baltic-speakers number few million people while Slavic-speakers number few hundred million people. Either Balts were a smaller group since the start, or Slavs were much more successful in expanding.

    It seems almost certain that Balto-Slavs (before they split into Balts & Slavs) did not have significant amounts of N1c1 haplogroup.

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    it clear the term balto-slavic is a modern terminology and should not be applied to ancient times
    Term "Balts" is also a modern terminology. It was invented in the 19th century to denote language family encompassing Lithuanian, Latvian and few other minor & extinct (Prussian) languages. Medieval sources did not differentiate that much, and they often counted Balts as part of Slavs.

    E.g. Helmold (born 1120, died 1177) - author of "Chronica Slavorum" ("Chronicle of the Slavs") - counted Prussians as one of Slavic peoples (IIRC):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmold

    Indeed Baltic languages are similar to Slavic languages (hence there is a theory that there once had been a common Balto-Slavic language).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    The idea that Slavs emerged from Balts is quite funny considering that Baltic-speakers number few million people while Slavic-speakers number few hundred million people. Either Balts were a smaller group since the start, or Slavs were much more successful in expanding.

    It seems almost certain that Balto-Slavs (before they split into Balts & Slavs) did not have significant amounts of N1c1 haplogroup.
    Its not funny at all...example..Italian was created in the 13th century from all the regional Italian regions, 500 years later in 1861 when they did the census of the 22 million Italians, only 600000 knew or spoke Italian. With enforcement by the Government and 150 years later 95% of the 60 Million Itlains know Italian.

    Whats numbers got to do with it if a language is prevent from being used!

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    with proof that the venedi where a minor tribe on the coastal and where designated as part of the old-prussians from many papers, are you satified that Jordanes was a huge fabricator or stories/lies?

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    @Tomenable, nice speech on tribal Americans and language groups ignorant Euros including yourself :)
    Based on what I read from you, Slavic identity is strong in you. You tend to assign things to Slavs whenever in grey area ;) this is normal, most of us do it, just no need to deny it.
    As to Balts and Slavs, I prefer Euro Satems. Slavic languages are indeed younger, they started their victory when Old Euro Satem speakers were killed in big numbers by apocaliptic events around 500-800 in (middle?) Europe + increased assimilation of left overs after written Old Church Slavonic was created.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Old Church Slavonic was never used in Slavic countries which adopted Catholicism instead of Eastern Orthodoxy.

    So the (mis-)conception that written Old Church Slavonic language was crucial in Slavicization of populations is wrong, because in such case only Orthodox Slavs should be Slavs today, while me and other Roman Catholic Slavic-speakers should be speaking other languages.

    On the other hand, Germanic languages were as successful in expanding as Slavic. They were originally spoken just in parts of Scandinavia (Denmark is considered part of Scandinavia as well). Romance languages also expanded from a small area inhabited by tribes of the Latins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile
    with proof that the venedi where a minor tribe on the coastal and where designated as part of the old-prussians from many papers
    There is no such proof. Apart from Ptolemy and Jordanes also other sources - including Pliny and Tacitus - mention the Venedi.

    Neither of those sources claims that the Venedi were limited just to the Baltic coast. And Ptolemy also doesn't claim this in an explicit way.

    Moreover, Ptolemy mentions the Venedae as "greater tribes" (not one tribe, and not a minor one) and he starts the description of European Sarmatia by mentioning them - which as well indicates that they were the most numerous ethnic group or groups in European Sarmatia.

    Ptolemy mentions the Venedae as "greater tribes", while for example the Goths (and many others) - as "lesser tribes".

    This of course indicates that the Venedae were much more numerous than the Goths, or any other of the "lesser" tribes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arvistro
    are you satified that Jordanes was a huge fabricator or stories/lies?
    Nope, because he wasn't. Are you really unable to understand that ethnonyms can be transferred into speakers of another language ???

    Today there are people called Avars in existence, but they speak a language that is not related to early medieval Avar.

    They also most likely are not descendants of those old Avars (at least not in any major proportion of their overall ancestries).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile
    As to Balts and Slavs, I prefer Euro Satems. Slavic languages are indeed younger
    Being "younger" means exactly that they split from the Proto-Indo-European continuum later, and remained part of it longer.

    Because - as you surely know - various Indo-European languages emerged from the original PIE continuum, by splitting from the rest of it.

    So the fact that Slavic tongues are younger only confirms that those were Baltic languages which split from a larger whole.

    Fact is that Balts have a lot of N1c1, while most of Slavs don't. Had Balto-Slavs had a lot of N1c1, we should all have it in large frequency. But only Balts have a lot of it. The conclusion is that ancestors of Balts absorbed / assimilated a lot of N1c1 Non-Indo-Europeans, while Slavs didn't.

    So the logical assumption is that the Slavic-Baltic split happened when ancestors of Balts absorbed N1c1 populations.

    Of course this is just one theory because nothing is absolutely certain when talking about such ancient past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile
    Italian was created in the 13th century
    Italian is just one language, not entire family. The entire family is called Romance and it originates from language of the ancient Latin tribes.

    For your information, modern Standard German (Literary German) language is also a relatively young creation.

    In the Middle Ages there were hundreds of Germanic (and not only Germanic of course) dialects spoken throughout the Holy Roman Empire.

    Later based on just a small fraction of all those dialects emerged two standardized languages - Standard Dutch and Standard German.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile
    Whats numbers got to do with it if a language is prevent from being used!
    Who allegedly prevented which language from being used, and when ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Slavic language most certainly did not come out of Baltic language. Balto-Slavic language was not Baltic language. And actually genetic data indicates that Balts emerged when part of Balto-Slavs mixed with (or absorbed) some Non-Indo-Europeans of N1c1 haplogroup, while the rest of Balto-Slavs did not mix with those N1c1 groups (and these became Slavs). So rather Balts came out of "Slavs" (Balto-Slavs) - not inversely. Also it is commonly believed that Slavic languages - especially Polish (as far as I know) - are closer to the original Proto-IE language, than Baltic languages.

    The idea that Slavs emerged from Balts is quite funny considering that Baltic-speakers number few million people while Slavic-speakers number few hundred million people. Either Balts were a smaller group since the start, or Slavs were much more successful in expanding.

    It seems almost certain that Balto-Slavs (before they split into Balts & Slavs) did not have significant amounts of N1c1 haplogroup.
    I mentioned however earlier, that Baltic and Slavic descend from a common Balto-Slavic, which presumably was spoken during the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age. It is clear that in the time period before contact with speakers of Germanic, Proto-Slavic must have been still very similar to what we reconstruct Proto-Balto-Slavic as. Hence my idea that the "Venedi" were, in fact, speakers of Balto-Slavic.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Yes and the fact that Slavs and Balts share R1a Z280 seems to prove that the Balto-Slavic community existed.

    It is quite possible that the Venedi were among the peoples who were speakers of Balto-Slavic.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok
    Other interesting fact is huge Germanic demographics in Polish cities during middle ages. To the degree that in many cities official language was German, even in Polish capitol Krakow (Cracow).
    I'm not sure if German was ever official language in Cracow, but it was surely widely spoken in trade contacts, because trade in much of Europe was at that time dominated by the Hanseatic League. So Non-German merchants also used German language in contacts with German merchants, and between each other (just like today we use English to communicate, even if we aren't English).

    For example if a Polish merchant traded with a Hungarian or a Lithuanian merchant, they used either German or Latin to communicate.

    On the other hand, documents not related to trade were mostly written in Latin, rather than German. Nothing was in Old Church Slavonic, though.

    Polish until the 1200s was most probably just a spoken language - in writing everyone in Poland, regardless of ethnic origins, was using Latin or German. First known texts in Polish come from the 1200s. We also have Polish songs, poems, etc. from earlier times (including the 1100s), but in Latin translation. We also have Polish sentences spoken in the battle of Legnica in 1241, but they were recorded by Jan Długosz in the 1400s. Personal names, toponyms, etc. in Polish / Slavic language are recorded as early as the 900s and earlier. But these were recorded in Latin language sources.

    So Poland never adopted Old Church Slavonic as written language. Instead, Latin was used as written language in early Poland.

    As for Germanic demographics in Cracow - in 1241 the Mongols burned the city of Cracow. After the destruction by the Mongols, the city was rebuilt according to new principles - Magdeburg Law was adopted in a privilege issued by Polish duke Boleslav and his mother Grzymislava. German specialists (including people familiar with Magdeburg Law) were invited to organize the city in the same way as Magdeburg.

    German commoners were also invited to help repopulate the city after the depopulation caused by the Mongols*. But ethnic German population in Medieval Cracow never exceeded 30% of its inhabitants, according to most of modern estimates. Though after adoption of German Law (Magdeburg Law in this case), German language gained importance so it was spoken also by many people who were not German by origin.

    *Actually nobody was inviting Germans specifically. Invited settlers were: "cuiuscunque gentis et cuiuscunque artis homines" ("people, unimportant of their origin or their skills in craftswork"). So Polish rulers were simply attracting immigration from any possible sources, in order to increase the number of inhabitants - pretty much like Sweden is doing today (opening borders to all kinds of immigrants).

    Most of immigrants came from the west (that is, largely from the HRE) simply because those lands had larger population size, higher population density. But "German" ("Niemiec" in Polish), was not only an ethnic German in modern understanding. "Niemiec" was pretty much everyone who came from Western Europe - including actual Germans (in the modern sense), but also including Frisians, Dutch people, Flamands, Waloons (though Waloons were also sometimes called "Romans", due to the fact that they spoke a Non-Germanic language). We can say that "Niemiec" was equivalent to any Germanic-speaking person as well as some Non-Germanic speakers from the Holy Roman Empire and Western Europe.

    It is quite possible that a Yiddish-speaking Jew was also sometimes called "Niemiec" (German), though I have no proof for this.

    The peak of German presence in Cracow was undoubtedly in early 1300s, when they even attempted to attach the city to the Bohemian Crown, rebelling against Polish duke Wladyslav Lokietek. In 1312 those disloyal Germans were executed. Only those who could speak Polish were left alive:

    A revolt by the Germans of Cracow, headed by one Albert, and by Bishop Jan Muskata, who thought of returning to their earlier Bohemian allegiance, was suppressed after a year-long siege [1311 - 1312]. (...) Investigations into the Cracovian revolt were assisted by a simple language test. Any suspect who could repeat and correctly pronounce "soczewica", "koło", "miele", "młyn" was judged loyal; he who faltered was guilty. (...) The Archbishop of Gniezno, Jakub Swinka, brought Bishop Muskata, the "enemy of the Polish people", before an ecclesiastical court. He excommunicated [in 1285] the prince of Głogów, who "was turning Silesia into a new Saxony" and had resigned his claim to Pomerania in favour of the Teutonic Order.

    If a German was already sufficiently Polonized and could speak Polish, then he survived 1312. But those who couldn't speak Polish didn't survive.

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    You changed quotes by me and Sile. I said nothing of Jordanes, he nothing of Slavs being younger ----
    I also think R1a z280 can be associated with proto-Balto-Slavic, whereas m456 with proto-Slavic exclousively. Also as far as I read other forums m456 + one of 'I' subgroups are the haplos common to all Slavs.

    Different versions are about Balto-Slavs, but if you check reconstructed words they sound more Baltic. Lithuanian in particular. So I tend to agree with "The oldest Slavic protolanguage could be described as the results of further changes acting on the Baltic protolanguage (but not vice versa)" Ivanov, Browne, Slavonic languages.

    From myself I would add those changes happened under Scytho - Sarmatian influence. When old Dievs/Deiwas became dyavol and Iranian Bog became God.

    Re OCS I agree Slavic was older than OCS but OCS and written language certainly helped to further assimilate bordering people and remnants of older satem forms. As you (was it you?) noted for GDL.

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    Well since we are talking about Poland here,I would be very curious to see some test of the Y paternal lines of the Poles from NE Poland.
    I am wondering how much N1C they have.
    Someone said that different people were invited to repopulate Poland,however,it seems few Baltic people came,from the very few N1C paternal lines present in Poland.
    As for the theory that Balto-Slavis assimilated Fino-Ugrian people,I agree with it.
    However,I find it very weird that most R1A from Russia is Z280 and that Russia also has a significant amount of N1C paternal lines.
    From this point of view,of paternal lines,Russians are rather closed to Baltic people,than to other Slavic people.

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    @Tomenable: maybe a thread about the spreading of the German languages should be started also.
    I doubt all Germans came from Scandinavia and Denmark.
    If we take Franks,for example,they did not come from Scandinavia for sure.
    And your theory with the spreading of German language does not really works for how France had Frankish rullers but the language remained Galo-Romance.
    To make the things even more funny,some Vikings conquered a part of France,settled in Normandy,mixed with locals,adopted the French spoken there.
    After,they went and conquered England who was speaking a much more Germanic language those times and influenced English language so much,that now 40% of the English words are from Latin.
    Could not really say that German was succesful at spreading.

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    what Polish and Russian say are the origins of the ancient tribes using a racial term

    Finnish: Finni.


    Lituanian/Veneds: Veneds.


    Türkic: Agathyrsi (Türk. Agach-er, forest people),
    Aorsi (Avars),
    Bodini (Türk. Budun, people),
    Gelones (Türk. Gelon, snake),
    Melanchlaeni (Türk. Kara Kalpak),
    Rhoxolani (Türk. Uraksy Alani, settled Alans),
    Savari (Türk. Su-ar, water people),
    Sarmats (Türk. Sarma, sack).


    Celtic Bastarns.

    Turkic is the bulk of the pre slavic in eastern Europe ...........they mean central asian people and before the many wars of Turkic sarmatians fighting Iranic persians on the eastern side of the caspian sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Old Church Slavonic was never used in Slavic countries which adopted Catholicism instead of Eastern Orthodoxy.

    So the (mis-)conception that written Old Church Slavonic language was crucial in Slavicization of populations is wrong, because in such case only Orthodox Slavs should be Slavs today, while me and other Roman Catholic Slavic-speakers should be speaking other languages.

    On the other hand, Germanic languages were as successful in expanding as Slavic. They were originally spoken just in parts of Scandinavia (Denmark is considered part of Scandinavia as well). Romance languages also expanded from a small area inhabited by tribes of the Latins.



    There is no such proof. Apart from Ptolemy and Jordanes also other sources - including Pliny and Tacitus - mention the Venedi.

    Neither of those sources claims that the Venedi were limited just to the Baltic coast. And Ptolemy also doesn't claim this in an explicit way.

    Moreover, Ptolemy mentions the Venedae as "greater tribes" (not one tribe, and not a minor one) and he starts the description of European Sarmatia by mentioning them - which as well indicates that they were the most numerous ethnic group or groups in European Sarmatia.

    Ptolemy mentions the Venedae as "greater tribes", while for example the Goths (and many others) - as "lesser tribes".

    This of course indicates that the Venedae were much more numerous than the Goths, or any other of the "lesser" tribes.



    Nope, because he wasn't. Are you really unable to understand that ethnonyms can be transferred into speakers of another language ???

    Today there are people called Avars in existence, but they speak a language that is not related to early medieval Avar.

    They also most likely are not descendants of those old Avars (at least not in any major proportion of their overall ancestries).



    Being "younger" means exactly that they split from the Proto-Indo-European continuum later, and remained part of it longer.

    Because - as you surely know - various Indo-European languages emerged from the original PIE continuum, by splitting from the rest of it.

    So the fact that Slavic tongues are younger only confirms that those were Baltic languages which split from a larger whole.

    Fact is that Balts have a lot of N1c1, while most of Slavs don't. Had Balto-Slavs had a lot of N1c1, we should all have it in large frequency. But only Balts have a lot of it. The conclusion is that ancestors of Balts absorbed / assimilated a lot of N1c1 Non-Indo-Europeans, while Slavs didn't.

    So the logical assumption is that the Slavic-Baltic split happened when ancestors of Balts absorbed N1c1 populations.

    Of course this is just one theory because nothing is absolutely certain when talking about such ancient past.



    Italian is just one language, not entire family. The entire family is called Romance and it originates from language of the ancient Latin tribes.

    For your information, modern Standard German (Literary German) language is also a relatively young creation.

    In the Middle Ages there were hundreds of Germanic (and not only Germanic of course) dialects spoken throughout the Holy Roman Empire.

    Later based on just a small fraction of all those dialects emerged two standardized languages - Standard Dutch and Standard German.



    Who allegedly prevented which language from being used, and when ???
    read this

    http://www.academia.edu/227794/Hidin...Slavic_Venethi

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    I find very interesting what someone said here,that Slavic languages appeared from Balto-Slavic,under Iranic influence.
    But I think South Slavic as Serbo-Croatian or Bulgarians have also at least some influence from Germanic,with the well known :
    english chair - bulgarian stol - serbo-croatian stolica - german stuhl - danish stol
    Also Slavic is influenced by Germanic ,take for example Love-German Lieben - Serbo-Croatian - Ljubav etc
    Snow - German Schnee - Serbo-Croatian snjieg and so on.

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    Turkic is the bulk of the pre slavic in eastern Europe
    You took it from a Turkic nationalist website that I also had once visited. Please don't rely on such random websites...

    This is basically all crap, because first Turkic-speakers had not visited Europe until Late Roman or even Medieval times.

    Sarmats, Aorsi (they weren't Avars), Alans and Rhoxolani were Iranic-speakers and this is commonly acknowledged. Agathyrsi probably too.

    Gelones, Melanchlaeni, Bodini were taken by Ptolemy from a much earlier source, Herodotus (check Herodotus for descriptions).

    Bodini were described as mostly red-haired people which seems to fit well with some Ugro-Finnic groups like Mordvins, Udmurts, Komi.

    Turkic sarmatians fighting Iranic persians
    Sarmatians were Iranic, not Turkic. No serious scholar claims that they were Turkic, except for mad Turkic chauvinists.

    And the Persian empire was established by Iranic people, but most of the population was of non-Iranic origin.

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    Snow - German Schnee - Serbo-Croatian snjieg and so on.
    This is not any Germanic influence on Slavic or Slavic influence on Germanic, but simply common, Proto-Indo-European origin (from PIE root *sniegwh):

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=snow

    (...) from PIE root *sniegwh- "snow; to snow" (cognates: Greek nipha, Latin nix (genitive nivis), Old Irish snechta, Irish sneachd, Welsh nyf, Lithuanian sniegas, Old Prussian snaygis, Old Church Slavonic snegu, Russian snieg', Slovak sneh "snow"). The cognate in Sanskrit, snihyati, came to mean "he gets wet."
    In Polish it is: śnieg

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what Polish and Russian say are the origins of the ancient tribes using a racial term

    Finnish: Finni.

    Lituanian/Veneds: Veneds.

    Türkic: Agathyrsi (Türk. Agach-er, forest people),
    Aorsi (Avars),
    Bodini (Türk. Budun, people),
    Gelones (Türk. Gelon, snake),
    Melanchlaeni (Türk. Kara Kalpak),
    Rhoxolani (Türk. Uraksy Alani, settled Alans),
    Savari (Türk. Su-ar, water people),
    Sarmats (Türk. Sarma, sack).

    Celtic Bastarns.

    Turkic is the bulk of the pre slavic in eastern Europe ...........they mean central asian people and before the many wars of Turkic sarmatians fighting Iranic persians on the eastern side of the caspian sea.
    This is complete nonsense. Its very clear that the Sarmatians/Scythians were Iranic (and thus Indo-European). The name "Alani" is etymologically related with the term "Aryans" (as in, the nobility of ancient India) or the country name "Iran".

    The Huns may have been Turkic (or Altaic, but the matter is far from settled / unambiguous), but they would have been the first.

    Also, the Greek name "Melanchlaeni" (as per Herodotus) means 'black cloaks', not 'black hats'. Also, as this is a Greek exonym, we don't know their original language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is not any Germanic influence on Slavic or Slavic influence on Germanic, but simply common, Proto-Indo-European origin (from PIE root *sniegwh):

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=snow

    In Polish it is: śnieg
    That is correct. There is a considerable number of Slavic words that were borrowed from early Germanic (many of them relate to agriculture and trade, which should give a good insight into the nature of the contact, in my opinion), but here I agree, that is not one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    You took it from a Turkic nationalist website that I also had once visited. Please don't rely on such random websites...

    This is basically all crap, because first Turkic-speakers had not visited Europe until Late Roman or even Medieval times.

    Sarmats, Aorsi (they weren't Avars), Alans and Rhoxolani were Iranic-speakers and this is commonly acknowledged. Agathyrsi probably too.

    Gelones, Melanchlaeni, Bodini were taken by Ptolemy from a much earlier source, Herodotus (check Herodotus for descriptions).

    Bodini were described as mostly red-haired people which seems to fit well with some Ugro-Finnic groups like Mordvins, Udmurts, Komi.



    Sarmatians were Iranic, not Turkic. No serious scholar claims that they were Turkic, except for mad Turkic chauvinists.

    And the Persian empire was established by Iranic people, but most of the population was of non-Iranic origin.
    IMO, I agree they are Iranic , my theory is that the iranic pushed through from south caucasus in to north caucasus and met the turkic people of Central Asia somewhere around the nothern part of the caspian sea.

    My post was what Russian and poles state for these............i did doubt some of them , but had seconds thoughts on only the celtic -bastanae association

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