Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

[Tomenable]

How do you know Ossi, Peucini and Venedae were Baltic speakers?

Exactly. There is no any direct or obvious evidence that the Venedae were originally Baltic-speakers. But it is possible - even quite certain - that some part of the Venedae were assimilated into the Baltic peoples. Moreover - the Venedae and peoples of very similar names could be found in several parts of Europe (and even in Asia Minor), where Balts were clearly not present. Such Venedic tribes lived at the Adriatic Sea, in Asia Minor, in the Balkans, in Gaul, along the Baltic Sea and in Central and Eastern Europe. There are various theories about the ethno-linguistic affiliation of those peoples. Some scholars think that they were Pre-Indo-Europeans. But more frequent are opinions that they were Indo-Europeans. There is also no agreement whether all peoples of this name belonged originally to the same language family, or maybe they belonged to several different families, but closely related (which explains similarity of names). A popular opinion is that this ethnonym (Venedae and similar names) comes from terms: "to love", "love", "family", "kinship", "friend". Another opinion is that it meant something like "people who live near water". Obviously the term itself had common linguistic origin. No matter who had been the original Venedic peoples, it is quite obvious that they eventually got assimilated by various ethnic groups. Some of the Venedae got assimilated by Balts, some by Slavs (probably that's why West Slavs were called Wends by Medieval Germanic-speakers; also Jordanes mentioned Venedi as one of three main sub-divisions of early historical Slavs), some by Celts, some by Italic peoples, etc. Considering how dispersed in Europe were the Venedic peoples, they could be either some very mobile IE-speakers or maybe they were an Indo-European name for some category of Pre-Indo-European populations. Maybe this is how Indo-European migrants called those of Pre-Indo-European tribes which were their allies and friends?

On the other hand, it could be an Indo-European name used by some part of Indo-Europeans to describe themselves.

After all for example "Slavs" means either "we famous people" or "speakers of our language". "Deutschen" means "we belonging to the people".

"Swedes" also means "we our people" and "Swede" means "a person belonging to us" (from PIE root "swobho" - our).

These are common meanings of Indo-European ethnonyms.

So, "Venedae" could mean "we who are friends to each other", or something like this. Not that much different.

BTW - Ptolemy has "Venedae" as one peoples, and then he has "Greater Venedae" as numerous tribes.

Peucini

Peucini were rather Celtic or Germanic (could be also Germanized Celts). See Tacitus.

=================================

Boundaries according to Ptolemy (before Ptolemy western border of Sarmatia was considered to be more to the west):

 

[Sile]

Exactly. There is no any direct or obvious evidence that the Venedae were originally Baltic-speakers. But it is possible - even quite certain - that some part of the Venedae were assimilated into the Baltic peoples. Moreover - the Venedae and peoples of very similar names could be found in several parts of Europe and even Asia where Balts were clearly not present. Such tribes lived at the Adriatic Sea, in Asia Minor, in the Balkans, in Gaul, at the Baltic Sea and in Central and Eastern Europe. There are various theories about the ethno-linguistic affiliation of those peoples. Some scholars think that they were Pre-Indo-Europeans. But more frequent are opinions that they were Indo-Europeans. There is also no agreement whether all peoples of this name belonged to the same language family, or maybe they belonged to several different families, but closely related (which explains similarity of names). A popular opinion is that this ethnonym (Venedae and similar names) comes from terms: "to love", "love", "family", "kinship", "friend". Another opinion is that it meant something like "people who live near water". Obviously the term had common linguistic origin. No matter who had been the original Venedic peoples, it is quite obvious that they eventually got assimilated by various ethnic groups. Some of the Venedae got assimilated by Balts, some by Slavs (hence West Slavs were called Wends by Medieval Germanic-speakers), some by Celts, some by Italic peoples, etc. Considering how dispersed in Europe were the Venedic peoples, they could be either some very mobile IE-speakers or maybe they were an Indo-European name for some category of Pre-Indo-European populations. Maybe this is how Indo-European migrants called those of Pre-Indo-European tribes which were their allies and friends?

2002 russian papers on archeological flatbed graves associated with the baltic coastal area, they even name the tribes and show it on the map...........IIRC, ossi where part of the aestii confederation .

in regards to venedae .........ae means mixed minor tribes.........its different if you say venedi
Venedi tribe was absorbed into only the gothic race ( their western coastal neighbours) around 200AD , they did not exist after this .........their know period of existence ran from ~350BC to 200AD.

Most likely Venedi, Veneti was name given by Roman historians after the Roman word Venetus, which means blue/green Sea colour. All these Roman tribes that the Roman where unsure of and lived by the sea got this name

AE ending , same as sarmatae is different to sarmatian ............sarmatian is more exacting, sarmatae is a mixed group...............you know there is even Montes Sarmatae ( carpathian mountains ), which before this was called Montes Bastanae

There is not even a Venetic language, sure people say there is but its 95% the same as raetic and camunic langauges, IMO, the veneti took it from it owners the Euganei people.
THere is one person who spent 10 years on the venetic language ( 2002-2012) , its nearly 100 pages if I recall and his claim is that it is Finnic in origin. ......I have my doubts on this.

http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/

 

[Sile]

Neither of those linguistically sound very Baltic to me (except Peucini). Galindae sounds Baltic. Actually I would even try to raise a possibility that AE here is simply because of Baltic grammar plural - Galindai is how they would be named in plural by modern Lithuanian.

ae is a greek ending word used also by Roman historians

 

[mihaitzateo]

I do not see the option "mostly Baltic".
Would not be possible that a serious percentage of at least paternal lines are from Baltic people?

 

[Sile]

Some of the Venedae got assimilated by Balts, some by Slavs (probably that's why West Slavs were called Wends by Medieval Germanic-speakers; also Jordanes mentioned Venedi as one of three main sub-divisions of early historical Slavs),

Wends comes from Vandal confederation and was used my western northern germanics to mean foreigner, when the vandals left on their migration the slavic veleti people replaced the vandals in the area that vandals once lived. after a few centuries the germanics began the wendish crusades to oust the Veleti .
The swedish monarchy still to this day claim ownership of the wendish people.........they do not mean slavs, but the ancient vandals who originated from southern Sweden before moving to the south baltic coast.

 

[Sile]

Jordanes actually changed the original findings of Pliny who actually stated

Pliny actual text below is the correct format,
97

quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur.

he seperates , sarmatians from Venedi from Sciri from Hirri ( latvian and lithuanians some have stated)

also note, 1 word for 1 tribe in greek and Roman format

 

[mihaitzateo]

Jordanes actually changed the original findings of Pliny who actually stated

Pliny actual text below is the correct format,
97

quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur.

he seperates , sarmatians from Venedi from Sciri from Hirri ( latvian and lithuanians some have stated)

also note, 1 word for 1 tribe in greek and Roman format

What about old Prussians who were also Baltic people?
How do I know that Venedis, Sciris, Hirris are not Old Prussians,Lithuanians and Latvians?
I think is clear one of the tribes is Old Prussians,who were living East of Vistula river.

 

[Tomenable]

Sile - Venetic language you are talking about was probably one of Italic languages (though its name is not necessarily of Italic origin).

There was also Wendisch language (name for some of West Slavic dialects) and Windic language (Winds was the old name for Slovenes).

Today there is a language called Avar (in Dagestan), it belongs to Caucasian family and it rather has nothing to do with Medieval Avars.

the slavic veleti people replaced the vandals in the area that vandals once lived.

The Veleti lived (in historical times) west of the Oder River in what is now eastern half of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and in Brandenburg.

Apart from the Veleti there were also the Obodrites - they lived west of the Veleti, roughly along the Elbe River.

South of the Veleti and the Obodrites lived the Lusatians-Sorbs.

It is assumed that those tribes shaped themselves in areas more to the east, and then migrated westward, like here:

Name of the Obodrites comes from Oder River ("ob Odra" was Slavic for "near the Oder"; Obodrites - these who live near the Oder).

But in historical times (since the moment when they were first mentioned in a written source) they lived along the Elbe River.

So the Obodrites adopted their name from the Odra River, but later they migrated westward towards the Elbe River.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Let me continue:
http://books.google.ro/books?id=-NE...EwAg#v=onepage&q=old prussians venedi&f=false
A page from the book of the English ethnologist James Cowles Prichard,where he concludes that most likely Venedi were the Old Prussians.

 

[Tomenable]

Venedi in territory of modern Poland were not Prussians. Prussians are recorded under their own names and separately.

Moreover as I wrote Venedi was not one tribe but a larger ethnos consisting of many tribes, listed by various sources.

Their locations are also not limited to the Baltic coast, we find them extending from the Baltic to South-Eastern Poland.

 

[Sile]

What about old Prussians who were also Baltic people?
How do I know that Venedis, Sciris, Hirris are not Old Prussians,Lithuanians and Latvians?
I think is clear one of the tribes is Old Prussians,who were living East of Vistula river.

old prussians , where originally in ancient times the venedi and aestii people

pliny says
Germanorum genera quinque: Vandili, quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones

Vandals, Burgundians, Varini, Charini and goths-Gutones ( then vistula river ) Venedis, aestii and hirri ..........this is the coastal order from modern mecklenburg going east

venedi and aestii are closer to latvian and lithuanian then germanic or slavic

 

[Tomenable]

Aestii ("Easterners") were probably Prussians, Venedi no.

Hirri and Sciri were most likely Germanic-speakers.

Aestii could (?) be also some Finnic-speakers (Estonians?).

 

[Sile]

Venedi in territory of modern Poland were not Prussians. Prussians are recorded under their own names and separately.

Moreover as I wrote Venedi was not one tribe but a larger ethnos consisting of many tribes, listed by various sources.

Their locations are also not limited to the Baltic coast, we find them extending from the Baltic to South-Eastern Poland.

 

[Tomenable]

Some of ancient sources which talk about the Venedi in area of modern Poland:

Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, IV-97
Ptolemy, Geography, III-5.1 - 5.10
Tacitus, Germania, 46
Jordanes, Getica, 34-36, 119, 246-247

These sources do not limit the territorial extent of the Venedi just to coastal region.

 

[Sile]

Aestii ("Easterners") were probably Prussians, Venedi no.

Hirri and Sciri were most likely Germanic-speakers.

Aestii could (?) be also some Finnic-speakers (Estonians?).

I think you need to cease this ridiculous theory that the venedae are inland people....they are an insignificant coastal tribe that relied on the aestii amber trade to make a living.

jordanes is the only historian who claims venedae existed inland and that was to make the goths more pwoerful than what they where...because goths absorbed the venedi in their society ~200AD

Jordanes was a goth from pannonia

 

[Sile]

Some of ancient sources which talk about the Venedi in area of modern Poland:

Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, IV-97
Ptolemy, Geography, III-5.1 - 5.10
Tacitus, Germania, 46
Jordanes, Getica, 34-36, 119, 246-247

These sources do not limit the territorial extent of the Venedi just to coastal region.

http://www.academia.edu/1832311/М._...propos_des_fleuves_de_Turuntus_et_de_Hesinus_

russian.............venedae on the coast see map

read english at bottom of paper

 

[Tomenable]

Ptolemy mentions Οὐενεδικὰ ὄρη - Venedici Montes (Venedic Mountains). This is obviously how he called the Carpathians.

Tacitus wrote that the Venedi inhabited, intermixed with others, all areas between the Peucini and the Fenni.

Pliny says that the Venedi dwell in lands up to River Vistula and didn't write that only along the Baltic coast, so inland too.

 

[Tomenable]

they are an insignificant coastal tribe

Ptolemy called them "Greater Venedae races" - not one tribe but many "races", and not insignificant but "greater".

They lived intermingled with others but in huge areas, dispersed from Sinus Venedicus (Venedic Bay) to Venedici Montes.

Venedic Bay was at the Baltic Sea, and Venedici Montes can only be the Carpathians (what other mountains are there?).

==========================================

Ptolemy wrote that the Goths lived at the Vistula River, "below the Venedae". The Goths lived at the mouth of the Vistula to the sea. It is obvious that "below" doesn't mean "to the south of", but in lower terrain, at the lower Vistula (compare Lower Silesia to Upper Silesia and tell me which is more to the north).

Even if it wasn't about altitude (and the course of the river), then still Ptolemy saw the world from this perspective:

Scandinavia could be at the "far bottom" of the world, from Greek and Roman perspective.

But Ptolemy IMO meant altitude, and the course of the river (there is lower Vistula near the sea, middle Vistula, and upper Vistula near the Carpathians).

 

[Sile]

Ptolemy called them "Greater Venedae races" - not one tribe but many "races", and not insignificant but "greater".

They lived intermingled with others but in huge areas, dispersed from Sinus Venedicus (Venedic Bay) to Venedici Montes.

Venedic Bay was at the Baltic Sea, and Venedici Montes can only be the Carpathians (what other mountains are there?).

==========================================

Ptolemy wrote that the Goths lived at the Vistula River, "below the Venedae". The Goths lived at the mouth of the Vistula to the Baltic Sea. It is obvious that "below" doesn't mean "to the south of", but it means in lower terrain, at the lower Vistula (compare Lower Silesia to Upper Silesia and tell me which is located more to the north).

Even if it wasn't about altitude (and the course of the river), then still Ptolemy saw the world from this perspective:

Scandinavia could be at the "far bottom" of the world, from Greek and Roman perspective.

But Ptolemy IMO meant altitude, and the course of the river (there is lower Vistula near the sea, middle Vistula, and upper Vistula near the Carpathians).

I know lower vistula is on the baltic sea ( what most slavs do not realise)

link where ptolemy states gutones lived below?............or are you referring to the Gepids ( cousins of Goths)

Venedae montes if you read the text properly states, they can be seen from the baltic sea.........no way do they mean carpathian mountains ...look at my link on post # 136...now look at map of ptolemy on page 126......you can see the venedic montes next to venedae on the coast

The quicker you eliminate the Jordanes theory from your mind the better off you will be

 

[Tomenable]

Here: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/3/5*.html

The Greater Venedae races inhabit Sarmatia along the entire Venedicus bay; and above Dacia are the Peucini and the Basternae; and along the entire coast of Maeotis are the Iazyges and the Rhoxolani; more toward the interior from these are the Amaxobii and the Scythian Alani.

Lesser races inhabit Sarmatia near the Vistula river. Below the Venedae are the Gythones (...)

He does not claim that the Venedic mountains can be seen from the Baltic Sea. He also gives location of these mountains:

to the beginning of the Carpathian mountains which is in

46*00

48°30

Carpathian mountains as we call them	46*00	48°30
Venedici mountains	47*30	55°00

As you can see Venedici mountains were some part of the Carpathians (like today Tatra mountains are part of the Carpathians).

Also north of the Venedae - in "lower" terrain, closer to the Baltic Sea - lived the Old Prussian tribes (Galindae + Sudini):

Among those we have named to the east: below the Venedae are the Galindae, the Sudini

As for Pliny:

Pliny actual text below is the correct format,
97

quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur.

Indeed - Pliny doesn't say that the Venedis lived along the Baltic coast. He says that they lived in lands up to the Vistula River.

They lived along most of the Vistula River, to the east of it.