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Thread: Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

  1. #201
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    But Iranic R1a was probably mostly so called Eurasian branch of R1a - Z93 / Z94 subclade (mostly):

    Tree: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ection=results

    Another tree (note the split into Z93 and Z283):



    And also:

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...l#Indo-Iranian

    According to Maciamo (in the link above) mummies from the Tarim basin were not even Tocharians:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I don't know why you call them Tocharians. That is a serious anachronism. Tocharian language is not attested until the 6th century CE. The 4000-year-old R1a mummies descended from the Andronovo culture, and ultimately from the Corded Ware culture. They were Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers, not Tocharian speakers.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    But closer to center z280 engaged in contacts with m458 and i2a to eventually evolve into Slavic.
    Maybe M458 were the Lusatian culture which emigrated eastward and formed the Zarubintsy culture after mixing with Z280.

    It is assumed that the Late Lusatian culture collapsed ca. the 3rd century BC as the result of climate change, Scythian invasions, and Germanic invasions. After the collapse of the Lusatian culture in Poland, we observe changes in material culture east of it - in Belarus-Ukraine.

    Zarubintsy culture (formed in the 3rd century BC) have visible Lusatian influence, which indicates migrations of people from Poland to Ukraine-Belarus at that time. Pollen diagrams from Poland and other indicators of human activity, show serious depopulation (just as serious as later in the 5th century AD) after the collapse of the Lusatian culture, and before the rise of the Przeworsk and Wielbark Cultures.

    Przeworsk and Wielbark are associated with East Germanic tribes (Przeworsk with Vandals & others, Wielbark with Goths).

    One of examples illustrating population discontinuity in Poland between pre-Germanic (Lusatian) and Germanic (Przeworsk) times:



    So, it seems that Lusatian population emigrated from Poland to Ukraine-Belarus, forming the Zarubintsy Culture. Just like later Przeworsk population emigrated from Poland and was replaced by Slavs (in ethnogenesis of whom people of the Zarubintsy Culture took part).

    The Zarubintsy Culture was also influenced by the nomads of the steppes (the Scythians and the Sarmatians).

    Late in its history, the Zarubintsy Culture became one of parts of the Chernyakhov Culture.

    It is thought that the Chernyakhov Culture was Gothic Kingdom in Ukraine created by Hermanaric (see: Jordanes, Getica).

    The story of Ermanaric and his kingdom - as well as of Gothic wars against Slavs (Antes) and their king Boz, is described by Jordanes.

    Everything fits. The Zarubintsy were Slavs, formed by mixture of M458 (Lusatians from Poland) and Z280 (local Balto-Slavs), under Scytho-Sarmatian influence. And later they got invaded by the Goths as Jordanes describes, which explains Gothic loanwords in Slavic.

    ==========================================

    Biskupin (constructed in the 8th century BC) is the most famous defensive settlement of the Lusatian Culture:


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    Winithar (Vinitharius) was the name of that king which defeated Slavic Antes under king Boz.

    According to Cassiodorus he was "vanquisher of the Venethi".

    Wini-thar means precisely this - conqueror of the Winds (like Wends, one of names for Slavs, more recently Winds were South Slavic Slovenes). Here is the story of Gothic-Slavic (with Huns later helping Slavs) wars in Ukraine as described by Jordanes:

    http://christogenea.org/references/o...goths-jordanes

    Before we enter on our history, we must describe the boundaries of this land, as it lies.

    V (30) Now Scythia borders on the land of Germany as far as the source of the river Ister and the expanse of the Morsian Swamp. It reaches even to the rivers Tyra, Danaster and Vagosola, and the great Danaper, extending to the Taurus range--not the mountains in Asia but our own, that is, the Scythian Taurus--all the way to Lake Maeotis. Beyond Lake Maeotis it spreads on the other side of the straits of Bosphorus to the Caucasus Mountains and the river Araxes. Then it bends back to the left behind the Caspian Sea, which comes from the north-eastern ocean in the most distant parts of Asia, and so is formed like a mushroom, at first narrow and then broad and round in shape. It extends as far as the Huns, Albani and Seres. (31) This land, I say,--namely, Scythia, stretching far and spreading wide,--has on the east the Seres, a race that dwelt at the very beginning of their history on the shore of the Caspian Sea. On the west are the Germans and the river Vistula; on the arctic side, namely the north, it is surrounded by Ocean; on the south by Persis, Albania, Hiberia, Pontus and the farthest channel of the Ister, which is called the Danube all the way from mouth to source. (32) But in that region where Scythia touches the Pontic coast it is dotted with towns of no mean fame:--Borysthenis, Olbia, Callipolis, Cherson, Theodosia, Careon, Myrmicion and Trapezus. These towns the wild Scythian tribes allowed the Greeks to build to afford them means of trade. In the midst of Scythia is the place that separates Asia and Europe, I mean the Rhipaeian mountains, from which the mighty Tanais flows. This river enters Maeotis, a marsh having a circuit of one hundred and forty-four miles and never subsiding to a depth of less than eight fathoms.

    (33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression. From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.

    (38) We read that on their first migration the Goths dwelt in the land of Scythia near Lake Maeotis. On the second migration they went to Moesia, Thrace and Dacia, and after their third they dwelt again in Scythia, above the Sea of Pontus. Nor do we find anywhere in their written records legends which tell of their subjection to slavery in Britain or in some other island, or of their redemption by a certain man at the cost of a single horse. Of course if anyone in our city says that the Goths had an origin different from that I have related, let him object. For myself, I prefer to believe what I have read, rather than put trust in old wives' tales.

    (...)

    XLVIII (246) Since I have followed the stories of my ancestors and retold to the best of my ability the tale of the period when both tribes, Ostrogoths and Visigoths, were united, and then clearly treated of the Visigoths apart from the Ostrogoths, I must now return to those ancient Scythian abodes and set forth in like manner the ancestry and deeds of the Ostrogoths. It appears that at the death of their king, Hermanaric, they were made a separate people by the departure of the Visigoths, and remained in their country subject to the sway of the Huns; yet Vinitharius of the Amali retained the insignia of his rule. (247) He rivalled the valor of his grandfather Vultuulf, although he had not the good fortune of Hermanaric. But disliking to remain under the rule of the Huns, he withdrew a little from them and strove to show his courage by moving his forces against the country of the Antes. When he attacked them, he was beaten in the first encounter. Thereafter he did valiantly and, as a terrible example, crucified their king, named Boz, together with his sons and seventy nobles, and left their bodies hanging there to double the fear of those who had surrendered. (248) When he had ruled with such license for barely a year, Balamber, king of the Huns, would no longer endure it, but sent for Gesimund, son of Hunimund the Great. Now Gesimund, together with a great part of the Goths, remained under the rule of the Huns, being mindful of his oath of fidelity. Balamber renewed his alliance with him and led his army up against Vinitharius. After a long contest, Vinitharius prevailed in the first and in the second conflict, nor can any say how great a slaughter he made of the army of the Huns. (249) But in the third battle, when they met each other unexpectedly at the river named Erac, Balamber shot an arrow and wounded Vinitharius in the head, so that he died. Then Balamber took to himself in marriage Vadamerca, the grand-daughter of Vinitharius, and finally ruled all the people of the Goths as his peaceful subjects, but in such a way that one ruler of their own number always held the power over the Gothic race, though subject to the Huns.

    (250) And later, after the death of Vinitharius, Hunimund ruled them, the son of Hermanaric, a mighty king of yore; a man fierce in war and of famous personal beauty, who afterwards fought successfully against the race of the Suavi. And when he died, his son Thorismud succeeded him, in the very bloom of youth. In the second year of his rule he moved an army against the Gepidae and won a great victory over them, but is said to have been killed by falling from his horse. (251) When he was dead, the Ostrogoths mourned for him so deeply that for forty years no other king succeeded in his place, and during all this time they had ever on their lips the tale of his memory. Now as time went on, Valamir grew to man's estate. He was the son of Thorismud's cousin Vandalarius. For his son Beremud, as we have said before, at last grew to despise the race of the Ostrogoths because of the overlordship of the Huns, and so had followed the tribe of the Visigoths to the western country, and it was from him Veteric was descended. Veteric also had a son Eutharic, who married Amalasuentha, the daughter of Theodoric, thus uniting again the stock of the Amali which had divided long ago. Eutharic begat Athalaric and Mathesuentha. But since Athalaric died in the years of his boyhood, Mathesuentha was taken to Constantinople by her second husband, namely Germanus, a cousin of the Emperor Justinian, and bore a posthumous son, whom she named Germanus.

  4. #204
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    Considering that Slavs were allies of Huns already in Ukraine, when fighting against Goths in the 4th century AD, it is probable that Slavs had an agreement with Huns, in which they persuaded Huns to invade Germanic tribes in Poland, and drive them out. This way Slavs, part of whom were descendants of people of the Lusatian Culture (who had previously been driven away from Poland by Germanic invaders) wanted to regain their lost homeland. With Hunnic help. Either as Hunnic allies or perhaps both allies and faithful vassals.

    Now we can mention that there were Slavic loanwords in Hunnic language, or perhaps Slavic-speakers within the Hunnic Federation.

    One of those loanwords was "strava" (Slavic word for "meal", "food", "spiritual nourishment") - it was used in Hunnic context:

    "(...) After he had been mourned with such lamentations they celebrated a Strava, as they call it, over his tomb with great revelry, coupling opposite extremes of feeling in turn among themselves. (...)"

    Source: Priscus of Panium (5th century AD), the report on the death of Attila the Hun.

    Let's take a look at Polish-English dictionary:

    http://en.pons.com/translate/polish-english/strawa

    strawa - spiritual nourishment
    They celebrated a Slavic spiritual nourishment (ritual meal) during the funeral of Attila the Hun.

    Slavs expanded into Poland shortly after the Hunnic invasions.

    Or perhaps already during the Hunnic invasions. Perhaps Hunnic-Slavic invasions indeed.

    However, initially the influx of Slavic settlers was limited. It seems that land was populated gradually, not in "one big wave".

    That's why for a relatively long time the population density was low, increasing slowly but gradually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Winithar (Vinitharius) was the name of that king which defeated Slavic Antes under king Boz.

    According to Cassiodorus he was "vanquisher of the Venethi".

    Wini-thar means precisely this - conqueror of the Winds (like Wends, one of names for Slavs, more recently Winds were South Slavic Slovenes). Here is the story of Gothic-Slavic (with Huns later helping Slavs) wars in Ukraine as described by Jordanes:

    http://christogenea.org/references/o...goths-jordanes
    The Vidivarii are the Venedae, Gepid, Rugii and Goths that remained behind after the gothic migration to the black sea. They are a mixed Group


    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ivarii&f=false

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii

    The only person ( a viking ) from what I found who actually went to the venedic lagoon to see these Vidivarii and wrote it in his books stated they spoke a Lettish language. Since he knew the Goths and Gepids spoke gothic, then the others spoke Lettish
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The Vidivarii are the Venedae, Gepid, Rugii and Goths that remained behind after the gothic migration to the black sea. They are a mixed Group


    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ivarii&f=false

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii

    The only person ( a viking ) from what I found who actually went to the venedic lagoon to see these Vidivarii and wrote it in his books stated they spoke a Lettish language. Since he knew the Goths and Gepids spoke gothic, then the others spoke Lettish
    Please find that viking source for me. I am trying to figure out origin of Latvian/ Lithuanian ethnonim, probably from common root 'Let' or 'Liet'. It should be earliest use of Lettish.

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    @Tomenable
    1) Rurik is Norse.
    2) I agree in general to your view of Slavic genesys. Could it be that m458 was culture from Poland, z280 was local guys and I2a was originally Gothic clan? OK this is speculation from my side, I admit.
    3) z93 for Scythians/Sarmatians is tricky. There were so much of them in Central\East Europe. Where did they go? Genocide by Huns?

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    I2a is not anything Gothic but Old European hunter-gatherers later absorbed by various populations, including Slavs.

    I don't see any convincing connection between the Vidivarii and the Venedae, what is the source for this?

    The Vidivarii were mixed so they could have a bit of this and a bit of that, so maybe they had some Venedae. But not all of them.

    z93 for Scythians/Sarmatians is tricky. There were so much of them in Central\East Europe.
    Maybe they simply had various subclades of R1a, not just Z93 - but how many of them were here? Really so many?

    Even thousands is not that many compared to some millions of other inhabitants of Central/Eastern Europe.

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    I think I read an article somewhere that mentioned that some Poles, Belarussians and Russians. Had a tiny bit of Scandinavian German in them. The Varangians. Or something like that. They may have mixed with the Eastern Slavic populations at a moderate to low average level. From what I heard.

    I believe names like Igor (Polish) and Olek (Polish) are Scandinavian German in origin.

    Many Polish people have Germanic/Norse Viking Y-DNA. Mostly centered around the city of Szczecin. Likewise, considering the territories' Germanic history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I2a is not anything Gothic but Old European hunter-gatherers later absorbed by various populations, including Slavs.
    It is possible Mesolithic hunter-gatherers with I2a were absorbed and assimilated into a Neolithic farmer culture. Which they gradually assimilated into the Indo-Europeans migrating from the Russian East.

    Chances of this are very low, but still not to be ruled out.

    Additionally, we've already seen I2a Mesolithic descendents who are Indo-European. They're called Sardinians and Bosnians.


    [But, it IS kind of suspicious; considering the Indo-European peoples were more technologically advanced than Mesolithic Europeans; and used domesticated horses for their raids and conquests. Maybe some of these I2a men were spared, and/or allowed Nobility or some other status in order to assimilate within the Indo-Europeans. I believe the reason why Sardinians carry I2a at a high frequency, is because they live on an island guarded by sea. So it would be harder for skilled Indo-European horsemen to come and slaughter the original population, who lived on an island. It would be much easier for Romans to assimilate these Sardinian I2a people later on. It would also be harder to slaughter the pre-Bosnian I2a men, seeing as they tended to live in a very isolated and mountainous region; that would be completely familiar to the local indigenous peoples who had lived there for millennia; but totally foreign to the stronger Indo-Europeans of the East.]

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    Chances of this are very low, but still not to be ruled out.
    Why very low ??? There is a lot of haplogroup I all around Europe. No point in connecting it with just one or a few specific migrations.

    Places with higher density (percent) of haplogroup I are places unfavourable for farming, that's why more hunters are there.

    They're called Sardinians and Bosnians.
    Sardinians have their own specific subclade, and it was probably a "founder effect".

    Bosnians are part of a high-frequency I2 strip stretching from Belarus-Ukraine-Moldova-Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Serbia-Montenegro-BiH-Croatia-Slovenia.

    I2 was certainly being spread by Slavic migrations, but it certainly also existed in the Balkans before Slavic migrations.

    So there was an accumulation effect of I2 (new Slavic I2 + old local I2 assimilated by Slavs) resulting in very high frequency of I2 observed today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    @Tomenable
    3) z93 for Scythians/Sarmatians is tricky. There were so much of them in Central\East Europe. Where did they go? Genocide by Huns?
    I believe I had a theory that I posted here earlier in this thread; that stated that R1a was the dominant paternal lineage of the Scythians and Sarmatians. My hypothesis about this, is that many of them were (maybe) eventually broken up into smaller tribes; and then gradually assimilated with/into pre-Balto-Slavic peoples. And another half of this theory is; some Scythians/Sarmations may have become assimilated into the Hungarian culture from Russia, and may have become genetically dominant. (This could explain why Hungarians have the lowest incidence of N1c1 among the rest of the Uralic speaking population, as a whole. As well as the Baltic Indo-Europeans who carry N1c1 at a higher frequency than Uralic Hungarians. Which suggests many of their Baltic ancestors may have been originally Uralic speakers. This is quite unusual; and it seems to suggest that there was a major crossroads between tribes in Eastern Europe here, and lots of division and conquering.)

    (But I don't believe Hungarians had any relation to the Huns. Let us not get Hungarian and the Huns confused for the same people. But, I do believe the Huns may have helped to uproot/divide the Scythians and Sarmatians into smaller tribes/peoples, as you may have suggested.)

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    Hungarians were most certainly mixed with Iranic and Turkic peoples already before migrating to Europe.

    After they settled in what is today Hungary they also absorbed local peoples such as Slavs or remants of Avars.

    Note that Hungarians (Magyars) were the only Ugro-Finns who adopted the lifestyle of steppe nomads.

    According to Hungarian historian Adrienne Koermendy, Magyar migration - which ultimately ended in Central Europe - lasted for few thousand years. They originated in Western Siberia and migrated at first southward, and later westward, during their migration establishing close ties with many Turkic tribes, ties which left traces in Hungarian language and culture. Probably Hungarians adopted their nomadic steppe lifestyle from Turkic and/or Iranic peoples.

    Migrating Magyars finally invaded and settled in the Carpathian Basin in years 895 - 907. By the time of Magyar invasion, the Avar Khaganate no longer existed (it collapsed early in the 800s after numerous wars against Franks, Slavs and Byzantines). Avar capital city - known as Ring (located between the Danube and the Tisa River, in what is now Vojvodina) declined as well. Some remnants of Avars - to some extent assimilated by or mixed with other neighbouring ethnic groups - still lived in the Carpathian Basins when Magyars invaded. And undoubtedly those Avar descendants who survived invasions, became later assimilated.

    But Hungarians came nearly one hundred years after the final collapse of the Avar Khaganate.

    In 907 Hungarians secured their control over the western part of the Carpathian Basin, as the result of the battle of Brezalauspurc:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pressburg

    There is also evidence for Iranic settlement in Hungary. The region of Jászbereny is called after one of Iranic, Sarmatian, Alan tribes.*

    *(they were a subdivision of Alans, who were a subdivision of Sarmatians, who were a subdivision of Iranic-peoples)

    We cannot also forget for example about the Mongol Invasion of Hungary which killed large part of the population.

    After the Mongol invasion ethnic structure of Hungary changed - many people were killed and foreign settlers were invited to replace them.

    But in some regions it killed much more than in other regions (so that could alter genetic makeup of the country, if regions which lost more people were genetically different from regions which lost few people). Population of Hungary in 1242 is estimated at ca. 1 million and before the invasion - in 1240 - at between ca. 1,4 (low estimate) and ca. 2 (high estimate) million. Some Germans lived in Hungary already before 1240, but only in the Transylvanian region of Burzenland - which had belonged to the Teutonic Knights before they were expelled and then invited to Poland to fight against Old Prussians, enemies of Mazovian duke.

    Effects of the Mongol Invasion on population of various regions of Hungary can be illustrated by percent of villages destroyed by the Mongols:

    1) Between the rivers Danube and Tisza, in the south: counties Bács and Bodrog - 45% of villages existing before 1240 destroyed
    2) Between the rivers Danube and Tisza, in the middle of the country - 80% of all villages erased by the Mongols
    3) The central region of Transtisia: county Békés - 50%
    4) The northern region of Transtisia: county Bihar - 20%
    5) The southern region of Transtisia: counties Csanád, Csongrád - 75%
    6) Transdanubia: plain or hilly area - 15%
    7) Transdanubia: mountaneous region with forests - under 10%
    8) Upper Hungary (mountains) - under 10%

    Historian Jenő Szűcs estimated the population loss at 20% (because - according to him - the most Mongol-devastated regions were also the ones least densely populated already before 1240). But historian György Györffy estimated the population loss at 50% and the population in 1240 at 2 million. Historian Márta Font indicates that after the end of the invasion the influx of foreign, mostly German, settlers helped to increase the number of inhabitants.

    =========================

    After the Mongol Invasion Hungarian kings invited foreign settlers to repopulate their lands.

    Those settlers were of various ethnic origins - ranging from German, through Vlach and Slavic, to Turkic Cuman and Iranic (e.g. those in Jászbereny).

    But the largest group among those foreign settlers were most probably Germans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Why very low ??? There is a lot of haplogroup I all around Europe. No point in connecting it with just one or a few specific migrations.

    Places with higher density (percent) of haplogroup I are places unfavourable for farming, that's why more hunters are there.



    Sardinians have their own specific subclade, and it was probably a "founder effect".

    Bosnians are part of a high-frequency I2 strip stretching from Belarus-Ukraine-Moldova-Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Serbia-Montenegro-BiH-Croatia-Slovenia.

    I2 was certainly being spread by Slavic migrations, but it certainly also existed in the Balkans before Slavic migrations.

    So there was an accumulation effect of I2 (new Slavic I2 + old local I2 assimilated by Slavs) resulting in very high frequency of I2 observed today.
    New Slavic I2 and old I2 should have different subclades then. Need to check on I2 page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I2a is not anything Gothic but Old European hunter-gatherers later absorbed by various populations, including Slavs.

    I don't see any convincing connection between the Vidivarii and the Venedae, what is the source for this?

    The Vidivarii were mixed so they could have a bit of this and a bit of that, so maybe they had some Venedae. But not all of them.



    Maybe they simply had various subclades of R1a, not just Z93 - but how many of them were here? Really so many?

    Even thousands is not that many compared to some millions of other inhabitants of Central/Eastern Europe.
    Vidivarii is the vistula veneti on the coast who are Venedae to ptolemy and his map ...............how much proof do you need.?
    Even the ptolemy map had the venedae montes near the coast and you still do not acknoledge this.!............are you going to say, I agree?
    we presented all the proof and you present Jordanes Getica which is stated as a fabrication and not believed by many.

    If you say the venedae are so great, then why are they not in any history literature.........there is plenty on the bastanae who occupied the exact same area as your fabricated Venedae, the bastanae are recorded as going to war, signing treaties etc..

    Jordanes stated that Getae are the same as the Goths, on the testimony of Orosius Paulus.[2] A controversial passage identifies the ancient people of Venedi mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny the Elder and Ptolemy, with the Slavs of the 6th century. As early as 1844,[6] it has been used by eastern European scholars to support the idea of the existence of a Slavic ethnicity long before the last phase of the Late Roman period. Others have rejected this view, based on the absence of concrete archaeological and historiographical data.[7]


    Danish scholar Arne Søby Christensen on the other hand claims that the Getica was an entirely fabricated account, and that the origin of the Goths in the book is a construction based on popular Greek and Roman myths as well as a misinterpretation of recorded names from Northern Europe. The purpose of this fabrication, according to Christensen, was to establish a glorious identity for the peoples that had recently gained power in post-Roman Europe.[13]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Why very low ??? There is a lot of haplogroup I all around Europe. No point in connecting it with just one or a few specific migrations.

    Places with higher density (percent) of haplogroup I are places unfavourable for farming, that's why more hunters are there.



    Sardinians have their own specific subclade, and it was probably a "founder effect".

    Bosnians are part of a high-frequency I2 strip stretching from Belarus-Ukraine-Moldova-Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Serbia-Montenegro-BiH-Croatia-Slovenia.

    I2 was certainly being spread by Slavic migrations, but it certainly also existed in the Balkans before Slavic migrations.

    So there was an accumulation effect of I2 (new Slavic I2 + old local I2 assimilated by Slavs) resulting in very high frequency of I2 observed today.
    Well, as I stated before; there is always a chance that some of the I2 men were spared by Indo-European nomads. But it's theorized I2 was once the most dominant Y-DNA in Europe; and the reason for it's disappearing is mainly thought to be because of the Indo-European R1b and R1a men slaughtering the I2 men, and taking their women. Mesolithic Haplogroup I1 in Scandinavia is older or just as old as I2a; but the reasoning why it is prevalent amongst Scandinavians at a high frequency may be cause I1 men lived in an isolated region of Europe; that was prevalent of caves, dense forests, mountains and lakes. And Indo-Europeans being foreigners; probably had a much harder time navigating into Scandinavia. Given that I1 people have been there for about 5,000+ years longer than the Bronze Age Indo-Europeans; they would naturally be more familiar with the region and would have already learned how to navigate in Scandinavia. It would give the Mesolithic I1 people plenty of time to find a place of refuge and hide from invading foreigners; and the powerful Indo-Europeans would take a much longer time to either decimate or assimilate these people.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    and the reason for it's disappearing
    But what "disappearing" are we talking about ??? It never disappeared totally, it just got outnumbered by newcomers.

    In all European countries there is still between several percent and a few dozen percent of I haplogroup.

    I1 men lived in an isolated region of Europe; that was prevalent of caves, dense forests, mountains and lakes.
    The highest frequencies of I1 and I2 (in general I) haplogroups survived in such regions, unfavourable for farming, I agree.

    But vsit Bosnia - it is also full of mountains and forests, etc. So is most of the Balkans, including the Dinaric Alps mountains.

    In Southern Belarus and Northern Ukraine there were also such areas - huge forested marshes (the Pripyat Marshes / the Polesye).

    So the origin of Slavic I2 is probably assimilation of Old Europeans hiding in the Pripyat Marshes by incoming R1a Proto-Slavs.

    "The Polesye Moorlands" (painting from 1890):

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...._Polissia.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Please find that viking source for me. I am trying to figure out origin of Latvian/ Lithuanian ethnonim, probably from common root 'Let' or 'Liet'. It should be earliest use of Lettish.
    you need to search for Wulfstan of Hedeby its a long account ...............the russians have the best, they translated it into english
    Wulfstan of Hedeby left an account of a voyage dated to about 880 AD as told to Alfred the Great and inserted into his translation of Orosius' Histories. It is the first mention of the lake in history and also briefly describes the Prussians of the times, which he calls "Aesti" .Aisti- Aesti (meaning easterners) was the name used for Baltic Prussian in records starting 800 years earlier.

    Wulfstan sailed from Hedeby (Haithabu), Jutland to Truso in seven days keeping Weonodland ("Wendland") on the right as far as the mouth of the Weissel (Vistula). These Venedi are on the opposite bank of the Vistula from the Greater Venedi of Ptolemy. By mouth of the Vistula Wulfstan explains that he means the passage between Frisches Haff and the Bay of Danzig.

    On the right bank are the Gythones. It would not be surprising to find Goths there too, but if the Gythones are Danzigers, they must have extended to Vistula Spit. East of them were the Venedae, south of whom were the Galindae (one of the Prussian tribes). The Venedae therefore must have been the coastal Estonians of Wulfstan, Western Baltic ancestral speakers.


    etc etc

    they came from below the ancient Kvens of west finland.........roughly where Turku is today


    if you are interested in west and east baltic people
    http://www.suduva.com/virdainas/proto.htm

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    from Hedeby (Haithabu), Jutland to Truso in seven days keeping Weonodland ("Wendland") on the right as far as the mouth of the Weissel (Vistula).
    Wendland is how Medieval Germanic sources called West Slavic lands.

    West Slavic lands along the Baltic Sea coast in Central Europe were only west of the Vistula River.

    East of the Vistula River were Old Prussians. West of Old Prussians were West Slavic Kashubians (Pomeranians).

    In times of Wulfstan, West Slavs inhabited the Baltic Sea coast all the way from Wagria (Wagrien) to the mouth of the Vistula.

    Major West Slavic ethnic groups living along the Baltic Sea were (from west to east): Obodrites, Veleti, Rujani, Pomeranians.

    Wagrians were one of tribes of the Obodrites - they bordered the Danes in the north and the Nordalbingians in the west.

    Nordalbingians (North Saxons) were further divided into three tribes: Ditmarschians, Holzatians and Sturmarians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But what "disappearing" are we talking about ??? It never disappeared totally, it just got outnumbered by newcomers.
    Not to be taken literally; I meant that it gradually became less and less abundant amongst the European populations; with Neolithic and Bronze Age migrations. Just to clear up.

    It could also be due to several other factors; such as inferior genetics with Haplogroups. (For example; Haplogroup I men may have have less sperm motility in order to create children; than R1b or R1a men. But this is a very unlikely scenario. I believe Maciamo theorized prior; that most Mesolithic DNA like Haplogroup I could become extinct Y-DNA in several centuries or millennia.)

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    Aren't such things detetmined mostly by autosomal DNA rather than HG?

    Hunters are less numerous than farmers because they can't sustain such high population density. If an area was favourable for farming then incoming farmers would quickly outnumber local hunters, perhaps in the very moment of entering an area they were already more numerous.

    On the other hand many of Mesolithic hunters adopted farming from migrating Neolithic farmers, so by the time of Copper Age immigration of R1 people, there were perhaps not many hunters left because most of I populations had adopted farming before.

    It is more mysterious what happened with Neolithic DNA because it seems for example that G haplogroup was once very numerous in some parts of Europe.

    In my opinion Neolithic groups, which brought farming with them for the first time, outnumbered Mesolithic peoples in most fertile areas, while in other areas Mesolithic DNA continued to dominate. In some of those areas (moderately fertile ones) they adopted farming from their new Neolithic neighbours, while in other - most difficult to farm - areas, they remained living predominantly as hunters or fishers or whatever.

    Later when Copper-Bronze Age R1 groups with superior technology invaded, they were more interested in occupying fertile lands first, lands suitable for animal husbandry, horse-breeding, cattle-breeding, etc. and for farming. So Neolithic groups which had previously occupied most fertile lands now became the main target of new invaders, while Mesolithic groups which had previously remained dominant only in areas of worse quality, now did not feel the pressure of new immigrants as hard as for example people of G haplogroup such as for example famous Oetzi the Iceman (who was probably killed by R1 peoples).

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    Sile,

    Wulfstan describes Old Prussian lands as Witland.

    One version of a map based on Wulfstan's description, I also have another version, will try to find it later:



    Wends, Winds, etc. are Medieval Germanic names for West Slavs as a whole.

    ==============

    On the right bank are the Gythones. It would not be surprising to find Goths there too, but if the Gythones are Danzigers
    Wulfstan IIRC does not mention any Goths/Gythones, Gdansk/Danzig, or Danzigers.

    Goths were long gone from that area in Wulfstan's times and Gdansk still did not exist, except for a fishing village located there.

    First Gdansk as a fortified wooden town was built by Polish duke Mieszko I about 100 years later, as dendrochronology shows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sile,

    Wulfstan describes Old Prussian lands as Witland.

    One version of a map based on Wulfstan's description, I also have another version, will try to find it later:



    Wends, Winds, etc. are Medieval Germanic names for West Slavs as a whole.

    ==============



    Wulfstan IIRC does not mention any Goths/Gythones, Gdansk/Danzig, or Danzigers.

    Goths were long gone from that area in Wulfstan's times and Gdansk still did not exist, except for a fishing village located there.

    First Gdansk as a fortified wooden town was built by Polish duke Mieszko I about 100 years later, as dendrochronology shows.
    So tell me, how is sarmatia as per ptolemy and tacitus be stated as wends when they are outside of the map you presented.?

    It's because wends refer to the vandili confederation ( vandals) in the past, who once they left for their "trip" where replaced by veleti and took up the same name of wends,............its further proof that wends where not the slavs, it's furhter proof that the venedae where outside the wends sphere, its further proof that the venedae with its neighbours the galidians, sudini etc are and became the old-prussians
    Further proof that anyone east of the Vistula river where not wends


    You still have not given me any proof about jordanes and his fabricated name , Venethi are who they are OR that they are the same Venedae. When are you going to acknoldge where the venedic montes are?

    you can chit-chat as much as you like about the medieval and avoid the ancient period , but that is only deflecting the issue of ptolemy's venedae

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    East of the Vistula River were Old Prussians. West of Old Prussians were West Slavic Kashubians (Pomeranians).
    Is this not the ancient lands of the Venedae, east of the Vistula river, yes or no?

    Here further proof on the vindili confederation ( vandals ).
    furthe rproof on the burgundians are not where you say they where.
    further proof on the venedae are outside of the wendish lands ( vandals).

    is it not strange that they seperate sarmatians from venedae to the east!.....clear sign they where different people



    See in huge print ...V I N D I L I

    SE of vindili is the Lygian confederation of tribes

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    Here is the first version of my hypothesis on the ethnogenesis of Slavs (I also posted it on one Polish history forum, together with more extensive description - but I described it in Polish so I need time to translate - but I mostly mentioned this in this thread):

    Direct link to map (its a "working" version, it took me 10 minutes to make it): http://s29.postimg.org/kusjgwefb/Sla...hnogenesis.png



    Since N1c did not participate (in large amounts) in ethnogenesis of Slavs, I assumed that only north-eastern Balts of forest zone cultures had large amounts of it. Dark green is the farthest extent of Lusatian culture; light green - extent of the Late Lusatian culture.

    Of course haplogroups listed for each area are only dominant haplogroups.

    For example, IMO Mesolithic survivors from the Pripyat Marshes had also some (but not that much) of I1 haplogroup, not just I2.

    So other HGs could also be present there, but dominant ones were - IMO - M458 for "Lusatians", Z280 for "Balto-Slavs", etc.

    I don't know what exactly could be the haplogroups of Old Prussians (West Balts), so I did not hypothesize this.

    =============================

    I've expanded this discussion also here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post443597
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-11-14 at 21:39.

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