Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Yetos]

I do believe so, but even without the spy satellite infrared images or the call from rebels to Russian handlers I would be hard pressed to offer a logical solution other than the rebels or the Russians shot it down. Tell me, do you think someone else would have done it?

I Believe that we have another civil war in Europe, and as civil war we must face it,
No I do not believe goverments anymore, especially in such cases,
may I remind you that no matter my personal feelings, in Iraq when G. Bush wanted to enter, we were told that chemichals, nuclear, etc etc are there, did you see something after the Iraq occupation?

what I am saying, is that we need vital solution there, according people's demands, not according Putin's or Obama's will.

the 2 certain things until now are that plane was flying at level 330 according Eurocontrol and assume by BUK missile, which both sides have.
I have't seen somewhere about that infrared videos etc you say, until given to media, officially does not exist such thing.
besides do you exclude that Putin's plane and Malaisian lines plane had a less than 1/2 hour same corridor same height flight, do you exclude a mistake?

I can not,
we can not judge according our feelings, but with facts, and since until today I haven't seen that infrared video we can not judge according a Hypothetical existance of a video,
if such thing existed, it should run to net and media fast so people to see and believe, if given 15 days after what makes certain that is not 'fabricated'.
As also we can not 'consum' that there is a 1/2 hour mistake by Ucraine's nationalists.

SIMPLY WE SPEAK EITHER ABOUT IDIOTS WHO SHUT A CIVILIAN PLANE,
EITHER A STUPID (SMART?) AIRLINE COMPANY THAT LOST 2 PLANES ONE IN SOUTH INDIAN OCEAN AND ONE IN UKRAINE

I wonder why we do not know who shut the first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

does that makes you worry?

to remind you

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-more-images-show-possible-jet-debris-in-south-indian-ocean/

could both crashes be a company or factory mistake?

but we all see according our will and not 'open wide', and 'hide from media is sometimes a crime, same as to quide media.

 

[Ike]

could both crashes be a company or factory mistake?

Of course not. Both crashes are probably result of actions of opposing East Asian airline company. They probably paid a lot of money to certain people in Ukrainian military to put the plane down, cause this is the best place to make it happen and go unnoticed. That plane going down has nothing to do with current event in Europe, and it's most probable that very small group of men in Europe knew about it and profited on it.

 

[LeBrok]

Did you guys hear this amazing story, when 400 Ukrainian soldiers hid inside Russia border when run out of ammo during battle and were overwhelmed by rebels? Russians arranged a camp for them and are willing to accept as refugees, but Ukrainians intended to go back to Ukraine soon. Isn't life more interesting than fiction?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28652096

 

[Yetos]

Did you guys hear this amazing story, when 400 Ukrainian soldiers hid inside Russia border when run out of ammo during battle and were overwhelmed by rebels? Russians arranged a camp for them and are willing to accept as refugees, but Ukrainians intended to go back to Ukraine soon. Isn't life more interesting than fiction?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28652096

that is an amazing story, and we still arque on who is the good, who is the bad, and who is the ungly

 

[LeBrok]

that is an amazing story, and we still arque on who is the good, who is the bad, and who is the ungly

Generally speaking people like each other, but Putin is building a new empire, and this is a bloody process.

 

[Ike]

Generally speaking people like each other, but Putin is building a new empire, and this is a bloody process.

Except for the fact that those territories were Russian before "evil communists", as you like to call them, took it away. And except for the fact that Russians are majority on those territories. And except for the fact that those people, that are majority there, decided what they want to do with their lives.

So stop your warmongering propaganda.

 

[LeBrok]

Except for the fact that those territories were Russian before "evil communists", as you like to call them, took it away. And except for the fact that Russians are majority on those territories. And except for the fact that those people, that are majority there, decided what they want to do with their lives.

You double faced devil. You call Croats and Bosniaks criminals because they broke off from Yugoslavia, but Russians in Ukraine are freedom fighters to you.

So stop your warmongering propaganda.

Quote me once when I have enticed people to war in this thread.

Except for the fact that those territories were Russian before "evil communists", as you like to call them, took it away.

Another of your brilliant ideas. Let's delete all borders set after WW2, after all they were all introduced by Capitalists and Communists, right? And start WW3.

 

[Ike]

You double faced devil. You call Croats and Bosniaks criminals because they broke off from Yugoslavia, but Russians in Ukraine are freedom fighters to you.

No, I said that what Socialist Republic of Croatia did was a criminal act. Croats and Bosniaks never did broke from Yugoslavia, so that statement (as you've put it) would be irrational.
So, in the end, you still don't make a difference between Croat and Croatia Damn it, dude, this is like 4th time I'm insisting on it, and there you go, same old stupid and ignorant story....

Quote me once when I have enticed people to war in this thread.

Generally speaking people like each other, but Putin is building a new empire, and this is a bloody process.

This is classical false dilemma aimed to raise subconscious panic that eventually leads to animosity towards the Russian people.

Another of your brilliant ideas. Let's delete all borders set after WW2, after all they were all introduced by Capitalists and Communists, right? And start WW3.

It is very indicative how you've chosen when to conform to imaginative borders, over the choice of the people - in this very case. There goes democracy down the sewer, cause it fits your need better like this.

 

[LeBrok]

No, I said that what Socialist Republic of Croatia did was a criminal act. Croats and Bosniaks never did broke from Yugoslavia, so that statement (as you've put it) would be irrational.
So, in the end, you still don't make a difference between Croat and Croatia Damn it, dude, this is like 4th time I'm insisting on it, and there you go, same old stupid and ignorant story....

Wait a minute! Croatian government took Croatia out of Yugoslavia against will of Croats?!!!

This is classical false dilemma aimed to raise subconscious panic that eventually leads to animosity towards the Russian people.

lol, Russia is attacking neighbours subconsciously. You have to refresh definitions of fantasy and reality. You got them mixed up.

It is very indicative how you've chosen when to conform to imaginative borders, over the choice of the people - in this very case.

lol, again what is real you think it is a fantasy. I dare you to cross the borders without passport. If you are right, and they are "imaginative" (imaginary), you shouldn't have problem doing so.

 

[Dalmat]

Ike is typical ignorant Serb, criminal act LOL, now i am not going to write an essay here of how Milosevic tried to pull a nazi regime in yugoslavia etc... and how braking of was lawful act for federal state in yugoslavia that was elected, but i will tell him to look into his backyard first, and second, he should stop living in a dream land, yugoslavia LOL?

i wonder why even this forum has it as an option

 

[mihaitzateo]

Ike is typical ignorant Serb, criminal act LOL, now i am not going to write an essay here of how Milosevic tried to pull a nazi regime in yugoslavia etc... and how braking of was lawful act for federal state in yugoslavia that was elected, but i will tell him to look into his backyard first, and second, he should stop living in a dream land, yugoslavia LOL?

i wonder why even this forum has it as an option

How many Serbians did Croatians nazis killed in WW2 is no match to what some Serbians did in last war between Serbia and Croatia.
But some Croatians did also crimes against civilians in last war between Serbia and Croatia some Kosovar Albanians did also crimes against Serbian civilians . And I have seen Serbia bombed,not Croatia and I did not saw those Kosovar Albanians who did crimes against civilians brought in the front of justice either.
How is that "justice"?
Sorry,please explain me using logic reasoning ,so I understand,because I do not understand what kind of "justice" was applied during the war from ex-Yugoslavia.
And also,what "justice" is used when Montenegro and Serbia are not received in EU ?
Most Croatians are thinking they are descendants of "goths" which is pure non-sense,they are more Slavic than average Serb.
So who is deluded ?

If you say I am talking non-sense,please explain how come Croatia is in some battle-group from UE with Scandinavian countries and not with the UE countries near,as it should be normal.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Now coming back on topic,is quite clear that most people from Crimea want to be part of Russia so I do not think there is any point in talking to whom it should belong Crimea.
It should belong to the inhabitants of that land and they should decide what to do,if they want to be part of Russia or to be fully autonomous or if they want to be part of Ukraine,is their decision.
Same happened to Kosovo ,is a very similar case.
If Crimea will be given to Ukraine we will see a genocide against people there who voted that Crimea should be a part of Russia.

 

[Ike]

Wait a minute! Croatian government took Croatia out of Yugoslavia against will of Croats?!!!

You're just playing dumb now... I'm tired of your faked "ignorance".

lol, Russia is attacking neighbours subconsciously. You have to refresh definitions of fantasy and reality. You got them mixed up.

Yeah, so why do we see NATO warships in the middle of the Black Sea. I know not of any Americans there.
Why aren't there Russian warships in Florida Bay?

lol, again what is real you think it is a fantasy. I dare you to cross the borders without passport. If you are right, and they are "imaginative" (imaginary), you shouldn't have problem doing so.

Borders are indeed imaginary, and they do exist only in our minds. As long as we agree to conform to the rules, they exist. One can easily cross the border without passport, and we have thousands of proofs of that every year, on every border. There is no sudden death from Zeus for the ones crossing the border without government knowledge.

Nevertheless, my original point still stands - you're a pure hypocrite that support two opposite options, and the only parameter for decision is how badly the outcome will hurt Russia.

 

[Ike]

Ike is typical ignorant Serb, criminal act LOL, now i am not going to write an essay here of how Milosevic tried to pull a nazi regime in yugoslavia etc... and how braking of was lawful act for federal state in yugoslavia that was elected, but i will tell him to look into his backyard first, and second, he should stop living in a dream land, yugoslavia LOL?

i wonder why even this forum has it as an option

Yeah, well, it's obvious that you're trying to connect me with Serbia, and consequently to Milosevich, that would giving me a bad look and somehow make my arguments false. Typical ad hominem, not even funny anymore.

 

[Ike]

Sorry,please explain me using logic reasoning ,so I understand,because I do not understand what kind of "justice" was applied during the war from ex-Yugoslavia.

Same logic LeBrok is applying everywhere. If a territory is willing to surrender to NATO and receive it's soldiers it will get independence. If it is not, then it's a KGB coup d'etat.
When Ukrainians wanted to depart Russians 20 years ago, nobody objected, but now when Russians want to depart Ukarainains, it's suddenly Putin's building a new empire story.

Same thing happened in Yugoslavia - when Croatia wanted to depart Yugoslavia, EU stated that it is obvious that these peoples (Croatians, Bosnians and Serbs) cannot live together and that Croatia they must be allowed to split to avoid the war. That's why the war started in Croatia - Croatians wanted independence, but it was not given to Croatians but to Croatia. Next year, when Bosnia wanted to do the same, EU said the opposite thing: No, Bosnia cannot be divided. Croats, Bosnians and Serbs, must find a way to live together. That's when the war started in Bosnia. Two out of two for EU.

Same thing they did in Serbia. When Albanians said they didn't want to live with Serbians anymore, it was democratic will of the people, and EU said - Borders must be changed because Albanians who live there want so. But, when Serbians said the same thing, and asked to be free from Albanian influence, EU was firm that borders cannot be changed. 3/3 for EU.


It is obvious from their actions in the last couple of decades that EU is only supporting those outcomes that lead to NATO's border moving East, while totally ignoring any logic, reasoning or the will of the people. And every time they do that another war begins.

4/4 for war in Ukraine.

 

[LeBrok]

Now coming back on topic,is quite clear that most people from Crimea want to be part of Russia

How do you know?

 

[LeBrok]

You're just playing dumb now... I'm tired of your faked "ignorance".

The biggest ignorance is to think that one lives in Yugoslavia, lol.

Yeah, so why do we see NATO warships in the middle of the Black Sea. I know not of any Americans there.
Why aren't there Russian warships in Florida Bay?

Russian attack submarine slipped past US Navy and patrolled Gulf of Mexico for weeks undetected[/QUOTE]
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lf-Mexico-weeks-undetected.html#ixzz39oSG3UFi

Borders are indeed imaginary, and they do exist only in our minds. As long as we agree to conform to the rules, they exist. One can easily cross the border without passport, and we have thousands of proofs of that every year, on every border. There is no sudden death from Zeus for the ones crossing the border without government knowledge.

Oh, you mean a concept of borders, not the real thing that you can touch. So is money, marriage, god, church and even Yugoslavia.

Nevertheless, my original point still stands - you're a pure hypocrite that support two opposite options,.

Hypocrite supports two options?! You mean hypocrite supports one option but pretends to support the other?

 

[LeBrok]

How many Serbians did Croatians nazis killed in WW2 is no match to what some Serbians did in last war between Serbia and Croatia.
But some Croatians did also crimes against civilians in last war between Serbia and Croatia some Kosovar Albanians did also crimes against Serbian civilians . And I have seen Serbia bombed,not Croatia and I did not saw those Kosovar Albanians who did crimes against civilians brought in the front of justice either.
How is that "justice"?
Sorry,please explain me using logic reasoning ,so I understand,because I do not understand what kind of "justice" was applied during the war from ex-Yugoslavia.
And also,what "justice" is used when Montenegro and Serbia are not received in EU ?
Most Croatians are thinking they are descendants of "goths" which is pure non-sense,they are more Slavic than average Serb.
So who is deluded ?

If you say I am talking non-sense,please explain how come Croatia is in some battle-group from UE with Scandinavian countries and not with the UE countries near,as it should be normal.

We were talking about collapse of Yugoslavia and you jumped into whole history of the region. Could you concentrate on one subject at the time? Otherwise we can start blaming Romanians for many things too.

 

[mihaitzateo]

We were talking about collapse of Yugoslavia and you jumped into whole history of the region. Could you concentrate on one subject at the time? Otherwise we can start blaming Romanians for many things too.

Because is same thing as it was with Kosovo,with Crimea.
I am sorry if some Serbians will get upset,but it was clear most Kosovars (which were of Albanian ethnicity) did not wanted anymore to stay united with Serbia.
And there were innocent civilians killed in Kosovo and most Kosovars wanted autonomy and they were given.
Very legal under international laws.
However,when most Crimea people wants autonomy it is "illegal".
I am sure that if Kosovo will decide to join Albania (which I think would be best for them) NATO and UE will not disagree with this.
Russia is not a rising empire and is neither a threat to NATO states,any mentally sane person can see this.
Maybe if US and UE would have not imposed embargo after Crimea joined Russia,Putin would have not been involved in supporting separatists from Eastern Ukraine.
Anyway,what is the result now:
India,China and Brasil taking big advantage from trade with Russia,which trade was made with US and Europe in the past and also taking advantage from trade with US and UE,trade that US and EU were making with Russia in the past.
US,Russia,European Union countries have a lot to loose from this embargo,China,India and Brazil have lots to win.
I think people of European ancestry/genetics from this forum (to which I am not including Indians,Pakistanis) can see that is in the disadvantage of European people living in US,Europe and Russia,this embargo.
So I think is time that NATO states and Russia should stop seeing each other as enemies because this generated the conflict in Ukraine and the Crimea thingy and should start being partners.
And in the first place,Ukrainians and Russians should start to be what they are ,almost same people with almost same language and start living in brotherhood.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Here LeBrok watch this movie of what an-ex congressman from US,Ron Paul is saying about how Clinton put some US forces to bomb Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Ha1B37v00

Now,Obama has started a movement against Putin,because is clear that Obama was involved in the movement from Ukraine.
Please show me that Obama was not involved in over-throwing the regime of Egypt and now we have a fundamentalist regime in Egypt and a country that is not stable.
Same happened in Syria.Because for Syria is clear that Obama was involved he even wanted to send NATO troops to fight on the side of the rebels from Syria who are linked with Al-Qaeda.
Are you sure that you are pro-European,mate?
Because I do not see how European people,who are as days are passing less and less can profit with wars between them.
Now let me see,what you are saying,start a war against Russia (with Russians being white,caucasian european people) which besides losses of mostly Europeans lives on both sides will lead to chaos in both Russia and Europe and US.
At least I know Obama is at most half white,but how about you?
So let me see,Indians,which already have over 1 billion people of their race,have the right to prosper,Chinesse,same,but Europeans,well they should start a major war between them.
Only a non-european or a mentally ill European is thinking like this.

And here what Ron Paul is saying about how Obama is escalating the situation and is ordering sanctions over sanctions,for Russia.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archive...why-won’t-obama-just-leave-ukraine-alone.aspx
What is Ron Paul saying about Clinton bombing of Serbia:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archive...about-the-humanitarian-war-on-yugoslavia.aspx

Some Ukrainians racists have no shame in blaming Russians that they heavily mixed with Fino-Ugrian people .
These Ukrainian racists are mentally ill people,because Feno-Ugrian are clearly Europeans and the fact that Russians have plenty of Feno-Ugrian ancestry does not make them less Europeans.
These Ukrainians are mentally ill people,is clear.
I hope they will get better at their minds and stop with their idiocy.
I am also sorry that Finns and Estonians did not saw how Ukrainians racists are blaming Russians,for their mixing with Fino-Ugrian people.

So what do I see is some idiotic presidents of US,both Clinton and even more idiot Obama who are doing acts just to provoke Russia and to which acts,Russia does not responds,or responds with a light measure - for example recent embargo that Russia put on US and EU food.