Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Aberdeen]

If 100% Crimea belongs to 12% Tatars, then 35% Canada belongs to 4.3% natives and 8% USA belongs to 0.9% natives. In Russia there are still 19% natives, so 100% goes to the natives. I couldn't find the figures for Australia.

It's okay if we have to give Canada back to the native people because I'm moving back to the Scottish Highlands to file a land claim - my ancestors used to own quite a bit of land there before the Stuart uprisings.

Or we can just accept that land changes hands over time.

 

[LeBrok]

If 100% Crimea belongs to 12% Tatars, then 35% Canada belongs to 4.3% natives and 8% USA belongs to 0.9% natives. In Russia there are still 19% natives, so 100% goes to the natives. I couldn't find the figures for Australia.

We can always share/occupy land proportionally to demographics. If all Tatars in Russia demand their independent state, they probably would receive land as big as Crimea, perhaps even bigger because of size of Russia (don't wan't to do math at the moment). Likewise in canada Natives could get 10% land for their country.

 

[soket]

I am a resident of the Crimea.

Why are Western countries support the fascist regime?

Ukraine had occupied the Crimea in 1994. In 1994, Ukraine introduced in Crimea almost 60,000 soldiers and border troops of the National Guard. President Crimea was forced to flee the country. Crimean parliament stripped of almost all authority. Violently forced us to learn Ukrainian language.


Now to power in Ukraine by the coup came Fascists.
They destroy the monuments of the Second World War. They allowed the glorification of fascism. And threatened to destroy the Russian-speaking residents.

Residents of the Crimea, to thank Russian federation, for the fact that she defended the Crimea.

 

[matbir]

Fascist?
That is just ridicules, stop your soviet propaganda, and look what will be next. The only real scenario is that Putin will establish Republic of Crimea totaly dependent of Russia, because no one will recognize it as legal government.
That scenario happened in 2008 in Georgia, nothing is new here, just long known Russian imperial agenda.

 

[Ike]

Fascist?
That is just ridicules, stop your soviet propaganda, and look what will be next. The only real scenario is that Putin will establish Republic of Crimea totaly dependent of Russia, because no one will recognize it as legal government.
That scenario happened in 2008 in Georgia, nothing is new here, just long known Russian imperial agenda.

In fact you're the one who is implementing Soviet politics.

1. Kiev was in Russia, even before Russia

2. Right before the Soviets:

3. Even today, after extensive anti Russian politics there are a lot of people in Ukraine who consider themselves Russian or speak Russian:

 

[Ike]

BTW there are already jokes going around.... People are aware what EU is doing.

 

[matbir]

After failure of Yanukowych's policy Ukraine needs new parliamentary and president elections, certainly not war.
Why Putin is trying to wage war against Ukraine? Why he needs to separate Crimea from Ukraine?
Russian political power is based on the income from fuel exports. Ukraine is confirmed to have large deposits of methane clathrate in the bottom of the Black Sea. So in next 10-15 years Ukraine will become exporter of gas what makes it potential economic rival.
So Russian officials emphasize that in government of Ukraine there are nationalists, even if Yatseniuk declared that they are respecting every minority in the country so they are working on a new law on languages.
I am also concerned about nationalist sentiments of party Svoboda, but gladly they do not have prime minister.

@ Ike:
1. Rus is not Russia. Grand Duchy of Moscow became the Tsardom of Russia in 1547 along with coronation of Ivan IV the Terrible. Rus was established in 9th century as the federation of East Slavs.
2. Ukrainians ware named Little Russians, Ruthenians and Ukrainians in different times. Map shown by you named them Petis Russes. Right before Soviets there was Ukrainian People’s Republic. Here is map showing Ukrainian-speaking area in early years of 20th century.
3. Today after 71 yeas of ocupation by the Soviets many Ukrainians speak Russian language, but they are still Ukrainians. Ethnic Russians make only 17.3% of population of Ukraine it iis lower ratio then in Latvia(26.9%) and Estonia(25.6%).
Russian language in Ukraine:

Ukrainian language in Ukraine:


Edit:
Here is more detailed map.

Protests against war in Moscow.

 

[Ike]

Like I don't know how New Age Imperialists invent new nations when serves their goal. EU has shown multiple times that it is not interested in implementation of democracy, disregarded legitimate choice of people, and broken international law and agreements. We have an experience here on Balkans with territories like Krajina's

Stop spreading that nationalistic bshit here. The difference between Ukraine and Russia considering language, history and ethnicity is minor, and only external factors are emphasizing it order to provoke chaos in the region, and to get a cause for military intervention which will only bring death and chaos (already there) and foreign troops (NATO) to Ukraine. They've done the same in my country some 20 years ago. I hope that Ukrainians are more smart than us and that they've learnt something from orchestrated fallout of Yugoslavia.


Why would a war start? Over the Yanaukovich decision to slow down integration with EU? If EU is so concerned about the well being of Ukrainians, it could say that Ukraine can't join EU ever, and the story is over.
So, does EU wants a war, or does it want to stop it?

 

[Anton Bear's den]

The author should put an option about Martians in the poll, probably Martian UFO dish landed in Crimea before first Greek settlers arrived so Martians also have right on the territory

 

[matbir]

I thought that you know about Putin's steps aimed to wage war against Ukraine.

 

[ElHorsto]

After failure of Yanukowych's policy Ukraine needs new parliamentary and president elections, certainly not war.

The problem is that Yanukovich was elected and new elections probably would not change much. Maybe those Ukrainians who voted differently should be glad if they could get rid of the russophile Crimea and Donbass
I'm speculating now but I wouldn't be surprised if Russia for that reason would not fully take away Crimea from Ukraine, just strenghtening it's autonomy status.

Why Putin is trying to wage war against Ukraine? Why he needs to separate Crimea from Ukraine?

There is this special contract which obliges Ukraine to warrant to Russia the military base. Maybe this contract could be a second reason to not fully take away Crimea from Ukraine, we'll see.

 

[martiko]

After failure of Yanukowych's policy Ukraine needs new parliamentary and president elections, certainly not war.
Why Putin is trying to wage war against Ukraine? Why he needs to separate Crimea from Ukraine?
Russian political power is based on the income from fuel exports. Ukraine is confirmed to have large deposits of methane clathrate in the bottom of the Black Sea. So in next 10-15 years Ukraine will become exporter of gas what makes it potential economic rival.
So Russian officials emphasize that in government of Ukraine there are nationalists, even if Yatseniuk declared that they are respecting every minority in the country so they are working on a new law on languages.
I am also concerned about nationalist sentiments of party Svoboda, but gladly they do not have prime minister.

@ Ike:
1. Rus is not Russia. Grand Duchy of Moscow became the Tsardom of Russia in 1547 along with coronation of Ivan IV the Terrible. Rus was established in 9th century as the federation of East Slavs.
2. Ukrainians ware named Little Russians, Ruthenians and Ukrainians in different times. Map shown by you named them Petis Russes. Right before Soviets there was Ukrainian People’s Republic. Here is map showing Ukrainian-speaking area in early years of 20th century.
3. Today after 71 yeas of ocupation by the Soviets many Ukrainians speak Russian language, but they are still Ukrainians. Ethnic Russians make only 17.3% of population of Ukraine it iis lower ratio then in Latvia(26.9%) and Estonia(25.6%).
Russian language in Ukraine:
View attachment 6278
Ukrainian language in Ukraine:
View attachment 6279

Edit:
Here is more detailed map.

Protests against war in Moscow.

Hitler was already so before Putin: He demanded a large province because a few thousand people spoke German, of the Czech and the rest is history.
Putin has already invaded the Ukrainian province of Crimea and now he talks about a third of the rest of the Ukraine ... etc .... in Paris as a few thousand people speak Russian.
I fear that Putin redo as the annexation of Georgia, but this time I feel that this will end badly if the Russian people do not take control of Russia.
You can not trust the word of a Putin as they did for Hitler. We will have to get involved, because then it will be Poland.
I am very worried.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Matbir

How much Russian speaking people you have in Poland? Are their rights violated????????????????

 

[matbir]

The problem is that Yanukovich was elected and new elections probably would not change much.

Yanukovich has no chance in elections, after what happened in Kiev. No one mentally healthy would vote for man who allowed police to shot to the civilians.

 

[Aberdeen]

Yanukovich has no chance in elections, after what happened in Kiev. No one mentally healthy would vote for man who allowed police to shot to the civilians.

Yanukovich allowed or ordered police to shoot at Ukrainian speaking people. I suspect that Russian speaking people in the Ukraine aren't quite as upset about that as you might think. It's a country divided, and perhaps the Ukrainians would be better off to let Russia take back all of the territory that Khrushchev gave to the Ukraine in 1954, so that the rest of the Ukraine can become fully integrated into the west. Only then can the Ukrainians count on the EU to protect them from the Russian bear. Russians already have Crimea - will Russian speaking people in Crimea who've welcomed the Russians be allowed to vote in a Ukrainian election? Probably not.

 

[ElHorsto]

Russians already have Crimea - will Russian speaking people in Crimea who've welcomed the Russians be allowed to vote in a Ukrainian election? Probably not.

For this case russian army is already there to ensure democracy (scnr).

 

[LeBrok]

Matbir

How much Russian speaking people you have in Poland? Are their rights violated????????????????

It is interesting how Russian and "Yugoslavian" posters can't even consider other solutions than Crimea being Russian property. It means that it is not only Putin but majority of Russians are imperialists in heart.

Anything objective this time, or ridiculing and demining others (this time Ukrainians) is your national sport you're proud of?
Sadly, with this attitude, Russia is still far away from being a true member of international community, a partner, a friend, a big strong helping brother, and yet it prides itself being a bully and a thug.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

It is interesting how Russian and "Yugoslavian" posters can't even consider other solutions than Crimea being Russian property. It means that it is not only Putin but majority of Russians are imperialists in heart.

Well I don't see any imperialism, the only thing what Russian Federation did is warned illegitimate Ukranian neo-nazi radical gangs at power that RF will not tolerate violence towards Russian community in Ukraine. The Crimea peoples will decide themselves it's furture on referendum scheduled for March 30.

Sadly, with this attitude, Russia is still far away from being a true member of international community, a partner, a friend, a big strong helping brother, and yet it prides itself being a bully and a thug.

I am afraid Anglo-Saxon family of countries as well as you Lebrok don't distinguish words "friend" & "vassal". The "Good" for you only the one who fulfills all your orders unquestioningly like a lapdog and bad any other who has their own opinion. You de-facto have only vassals & enemies on the borderline.

 

[martiko]

It is interesting how Russian and "Yugoslavian" posters can't even consider other solutions than Crimea being Russian property. It means that it is not only Putin but majority of Russians are imperialists in heart.

Anything objective this time, or ridiculing and demining others (this time Ukrainians) is your national sport you're proud of?
Sadly, with this attitude, Russia is still far away from being a true member of international community, a partner, a friend, a big strong helping brother, and yet it prides itself being a bully and a thug.

you can not imagine the number of Russian soldiers who want to desert.
Russia is really a mafia state, and I think what I saw with my eyes.
Let this quote Russian;
because we must recognize them unlike the Germans who voted for Hitler, the Russian did not vote for Putin.
We must remain calm but determined and I think a total economic war with Russia is a possible way to bring down the tyrant.

 

[Aberdeen]

Well I don't see any imperialism, the only thing what Russian Federation did is warned illegitimate Ukranian neo-nazi radical gangs at power that RF will not tolerate violence towards Russian community in Ukraine. The Crimea peoples will decide themselves it's furture on referendum scheduled for March 30.



I am afraid Anglo-Saxon family of countries as well as you Lebrok don't distinguish words "friend" & "vassal". The "Good" for you only the one who fulfills all your orders unquestioningly like a lapdog and bad any other who has their own opinion. You de-facto have only vassals & enemies on the borderline.

This is how I believe most Russians think about the situation, especially Russian leaders. That's why I advise Ukrainians to be cautious about how they handle the situation.