Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Dagne]

The argument of Zhirinovsky is that if you have NATO bases - we will bomb you and destroy the country, if you don't have NATO bases, then the argument is that anyway some parts of Lithuanian Latvian and Estonian territories, including capital Vilnius, should not belong to those countries but rather to Russia, so Russia will come and occupy those countries anyway.

 

[Ike]

Oh right, they are on an island. What kind of obstacle is this for biggest fleet in the world and most sophisticated and 100 times bigger than Cuban army? Your logic is not the sharpest today.

Yes, I bet you're right. It was stupid of me to think that CIA would try to destabilize Cuba during those events. Americans are not all that bad

Be brave and go on a record telling us that there are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine, and more precisely in rebel held territories. We should be able to validate your geopolitical knowledge (instincts) soon enough.

I don't care about Russian soldiers in Ukraine. Ukraine is their brotherland/homeland, and they have every right to go in there and eliminate the imposed government. If you remember my objection against Russia was because they haven't done it in the first place. They didn't help Ukraine promptly enough.

CIA has 15 billion budget to "influence" the whole world. Well, minus the internal expenses what's left to influence is not more than 5 billion. This is peanuts against the annual gdp of the world around 50 trillion. Do you really believe that CIA money is changing the world? Laughable.
Apple computer makes 50 billion a year. Shouldn't you be more afraid of Apple money?

Yes I do really believe that CIA is using money to overthrow governments. I don't think there are many people on the Earth who are not familiar with that fact.

Can show you that revolution can happen without CIA. You just need angry unhappy people, like yourself.

You're welcome to come here and try to start a revolution against our CIA government.

More imagery from your fantasy world.

I'm right here and telling you what horrible things are happening, and you're sitting 5000km away safely in your home, and you mock my words and degrade the victims of this nazi regime. Simply disgusting...

You still don't see it? Production equals more equipment, better technology, more tanks and rockets for army, more products and services for citizens, better standard of living and strong defences. Ukrainian and Serbian examples of lack of production should be easily comprehensible by you from first hand.

Yes, I comprehend that you need production to wage good wars.

On other hand printing money without growing economy will only increase the inflation, like in Venezuela or Cuba or Argentina these days. I guess they know as much about economy as you do. Recipe how to mess up and plunder your own country.

It was your government that was included in a joint adventure of plundering my country! You've driven us down, robbed us, and that was not enough for you but you kick us while we are down now, and you're now even making fun of our misery. That is totally obnoxious.

 

[Ike]

Ikke, listen to Zhirinovski himself - http://www.lrytas.lt//pasaulis/ryta...ijos-salys-bus-okupuotos-arba-sunaikintos.htm

This recording is from April 2013, where Zhirnovsky tells that Baltic countries will be occupied or destroyed.

All I hear is him screaming about some missiles that are 5 mins away from Moscow, and that he'll never forgive that. As I told you, if you don't want to be in that game, step out of it. It's utterly stupid and risky to be Russian neighbour and to be against them. Don't say he didn't warn you. He told you exactly what would happen in the case of trouble. US will sit safe thousands of miles behind, and you would be their shield.

Among other Zhirinovsky predicts future events - he mentions Ukraine saying that some of Ukraine's territories should belong to Russia, and also mentions that parts of Lithuania,Latvia and Estonia should also be taken by Russia and Beloruss and if our states were to resists, he mocks that our forces are very few- like one Latvian warship - he says that the countries will be fully destroyed. Listen yourself, if you know Russian.

Those territories are not yours. They were given to you by the Soviets. If we were to be honest, with the fallout of SSSR those territories would have voted to be in Russia, if only the right to vote was given to them.

You see, when such a high ranking political figure proposed land grabs and destruction, and, after a year, his promises start turning true (with regard to Ukraine) what are we in the Baltic states to think?

Yes, well you can either sit silent, or make a first democratic elections in your country, and then we would see what is the will of the people regarding the country they want to live in. Why don't you do it and make Russians shut up?

And please have in mind that almost every family in Lithuania had people killed in gulags of Stalin’s Russia. I know the times are different and Putin is no Stalin, but still, put yourself in our shoes.

And please have in mind that Stalin was not Russian, and that it did not happen in Russia but in SSSR.

 

[Dagne]

"Those territories are not yours. They were given to you by the Soviets. If we were to be honest, with the fallout of SSSR those territories would have voted to be in Russia, if only the right to vote was given to them".

You must be joking Ikke, people wanting to live under Stalin's regime??? Tens of thousands being brought to gulags just a month after occupation in 1940? With no offense but just because of being teachers, engineers, farmers...

I have nothing more to say to you

 

[Ike]

"Those territories are not yours. They were given to you by the Soviets. If we were to be honest, with the fallout of SSSR those territories would have voted to be in Russia, if only the right to vote was given to them".

You must be joking Ikke, people wanting to live under Stalin's regime??? Tens of thousands being brought to gulags just a month after occupation in 1940? With no offense but just because of being teachers, engineers, farmers...

I have nothing more to say to you

If you really believed that, you'd give them the right to vote in 1991.

 

[Dagne]

Ikke, I am wondering, how on earth you may think thatpeople could vote under Stalin's regime?
The population of Lithuania reduced by500 000 due to Soviet deportations, killings, forced emigration - people were tortured,killed, all private business and farms were taken away. The scale of terrorwas enormous - just over one single night Soviet special security NKVD come to more than 17500families, and they were - at the gun point - put to cattle trains and deported toSiberia ... Stalin's regime brought unthinkable suffering to my and othernations. And you write something about choice and voting under Soviet regime?
Regarding 1991 - all people of Lithuania were given equal citizenship rights,irrespective of their ethnic origin. We value our independence, and supportUkraine, especially Crimean Tatars, who had to experience the horror of loosingtheir home and country under Stalin's regime in 1946.

 

[Yetos]

nothing, just

 

[Christiaan]

And please have in mind that Stalin was not Russian, and that it did not happen in Russia but in SSSR.

lame excuse for bad behaviour... guess what Hitler was not a German but Austrian! Oh Napoleon was a Corsican not French...

 

[Ike]

Ikke, I am wondering, how on earth you may think thatpeople could vote under Stalin's regime?

I am not talking abuot that.

The population of Lithuania reduced by500 000 due to Soviet deportations, killings, forced emigration - people were tortured,killed, all private business and farms were taken away. The scale of terrorwas enormous - just over one single night Soviet special security NKVD come to more than 17500families, and they were - at the gun point - put to cattle trains and deported toSiberia ... Stalin's regime brought unthinkable suffering to my and othernations. And you write something about choice and voting under Soviet regime?

No, you made that up. I didn't write absolutely anything about that, and that's why I'm giving you a neg for this post.

Regarding 1991 - all people of Lithuania were given equal citizenship rights,irrespective of their ethnic origin.

There was no Lithuania citizenship in 1991. There was just Soviet administrative zone of Lithuania whose borders were drawn pretty much disregarding the will of Lithuanian people. If you wanted to do a decent ddemocratic thing, you'd let the people choose where they want to live.

We value our independence, and supportUkraine, especially Crimean Tatars, who had to experience the horror of loosingtheir home and country under Stalin's regime in 1946.

It was half a century ago, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Lithuania being democratic or not.

 

[Ike]

lame excuse for bad behaviour... guess what Hitler was not a German but Austrian! Oh Napoleon was a Corsican not French...

LoL. Like I'm trying to justify Stalin for anything. Where did you even get the idea that I care about him

 

[Ike]

@ IKE

since you are from Yugoslavia, you probably know about Tito's history,
I want you to remember the 'turn to 3rd world' of a European country,
and I ask you, Dimitrof from 3rd international, what was he?
the treaty of Blend, and the results,
simply agents sprung from both sides,
remember Tito and Stalin 'cold relations' due to that.

Yeah, Soviets also tried to politically subdue Yugoslavia, and we remember the Informbiro resolution. It was chaos here. We were really preparing for war with Eastern block, and Soviet tank divisions were lined up on the Bulgarian border. Escape routes across Adriatic were already prepared for the leadership.

"After Stalin's death and the repudiation of his policies by Nikita Khrushchev, peace was made with Tito and Yugoslavia re-admitted into the international brotherhood of socialist states. However, relations between the two countries were never completely rebuilt; Yugoslavia would continue to take an independent course in world politics, shunning the influence of both west and east. The Yugoslav Army maintained two official defense plans, one against a NATO invasion and one against a Warsaw Pact invasion."

 

[Yetos]

Yeah, Soviets also tried to politically subdue Yugoslavia, and we remember the Informbiro resolution. It was chaos here. We were really preparing for war with Eastern block, and Soviet tank divisions were lined up on the Bulgarian border. Escape routes across Adriatic were already prepared for the leadership.

"After Stalin's death and the repudiation of his policies by Nikita Khrushchev, peace was made with Tito and Yugoslavia re-admitted into the international brotherhood of socialist states. However, relations between the two countries were never completely rebuilt; Yugoslavia would continue to take an independent course in world politics, shunning the influence of both west and east. The Yugoslav Army maintained two official defense plans, one against a NATO invasion and one against a Warsaw Pact invasion."

All I want say, is there possibility the famous Dimitrof to act as Soviet agaent?

 

[Ike]

All I want say, is there possibility the famous Dimitrof to act as Soviet agaent?

I'm not sure. Dimitrov and Tito wanted to form Balkan Federation, but they didn't quite agree about the leadership and Macedonian question. My impression was that Dimitrov was always following Stalin's policy, and that he opportunistically wanted to grab parts of Macedonia for himself, but when SSSR sad No (for different reasons) he just stepped out of it. Didn't get the impression that he was acting as anybody's agent.

As for Greeks, it was time when Markos Vafiadis (who was cooperating with Tito) was ousted from the Communist party, so that initiative could be made that Aegean and Pirin Macedonians together with nationalistic forces from Yugoslav republic of Macedonia could start a chaos that would overthrow Tito.

 

[Yetos]

I'm not sure. Dimitrov and Tito wanted to form Balkan Federation, but they didn't quite agree about the leadership and Macedonian question. My impression was that Dimitrov was always following Stalin's policy, and that he opportunistically wanted to grab parts of Macedonia for himself, but when SSSR sad No (for different reasons) he just stepped out of it. Didn't get the impression that he was acting as anybody's agent.

As for Greeks, it was time when Markos Vafiadis (who was cooperating with Tito) was ousted from the Communist party, so that initiative could be made that Aegean and Pirin Macedonians together with nationalistic forces from Yugoslav republic of Macedonia could start a chaos that would overthrow Tito.

the story of Greek resistance and Greek communist party is full of such,
the personal story of Zachariadis is quite enough to understand the agents and how they worked,
I am not telling that Tito was good, or vafiadis was good, or Stalin was good,
I am telling that from 45 -55 the area was full of agents, which all act for foreign powers, outside balkans,
historically if you notice, Dimitrof, wanted to mix again the soup for new civil wars to open.
communist party was famous in Greece reaching numbers like 30-45% at 1945 in North Greece,
but the stand that Dimitrov proposed drop it to 4-5% lower than every working class than southern Greece.
he promised tremendous Soviet Help to Partisans, and all he did was to return to Moschow,
he manage to divide the communist party mentalists of Athens with the armed partisans in North Greece and expell Zachariadis,
he first tell not sign Varkiza, and then proposed the disarm of partisans,
if you understand his 'work' you realize for whom was acting.
same is in Ukraine and Moldova,
agents from both sides, all promise 'good days' but poverty and war instead of help is coming,

yesterday was a big NATO/OTAn congress, do you see any fast or catalytic desicions? I did not,

 

[King Bardhyl]

I'm not sure. Dimitrov and Tito wanted to form Balkan Federation, but they didn't quite agree about the leadership and Macedonian question. My impression was that Dimitrov was always following Stalin's policy, and that he opportunistically wanted to grab parts of Macedonia for himself, but when SSSR sad No (for different reasons) he just stepped out of it. Didn't get the impression that he was acting as anybody's agent.

As for Greeks, it was time when Markos Vafiadis (who was cooperating with Tito) was ousted from the Communist party, so that initiative could be made that Aegean and Pirin Macedonians together with nationalistic forces from Yugoslav republic of Macedonia could start a chaos that would overthrow Tito.

Stalin continued:
Customs union, federation between Bulgaria-Romania are all nonsense! Another thing is federation between Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania. Here there are other historical connection. This federation should be created, the sooner the better. Yes, the sooner the better, immediately, if possible, tomorrow. Yes, yes, tomorrow, if possible! And agree this immediately.
Someone-I think Bakariçi said that work is underway to establish the Yugoslav-Albanian federation.
But Stalin, stating:
-No, in the beginning between Bulgaria and Yugoslavia; and then with Albania

Milovan Djilas: "The face of totalitarianism," Publisher "Fan Noli", Tirana, 2006, p. 110-111

Kardelj said that in Bled was also set to be done gradually in the direction of establishing federation between Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, Stalin interrupts are specifying:
-No, not gradually, but instantly if possible-that tomorrow. Must join first Bulgaria and Yugoslavia and then those t 'was attached and Albania.

Milovan Djilas: "The face of totalitarianism," Publisher "Fan Noli", Tirana, 2006, p. 113


The conversation about federation with Bulgaria and Albania was a ploy to put us into a trap, a rope was in our heads.


Milovan Djilas: "The face of totalitarianism," Publisher "Fan Noli", Tirana, 2006, p. 116

 

[Dagne]

"There was no Lithuania citizenship in 1991. There was just Soviet administrative zone of Lithuania whose borders were drawn pretty much disregarding the will of Lithuanian people. If you wanted to do a decent ddemocratic thing, you'd let the people choose where they want to live."

Lithuanian restored its independence on March 11, 1990 by an absolute majority of is democratically elected parliament- 127 votes for full independence, and 6 - abstained. In 1992, Lithuanians voted for our new Constitution with 75% turnout, where 78% voted for the Constitution of the Independent Lithuania. This was a true popular plebiscite when people showed their will about wanting to be independent from Russia, even at that time we experienced economic blockade from Russia – no petrol and no gas, and people were freezing in winter without heating, and petrol had to be transported from Poland by road.

Lithuanian citizens wanted to live in an independent state, the borders of Lithuania coincide with ethnic make-up – 84% are Lithuanians, 6.6% - Polish and 5.8 % Russian. Polish people live compactly in one region, but there had never been an issue with Poland about it wanting to annex these territories with mainland Poland, because Poland is a democraticstate!

Whereas Russia, with an exception of the period of end of Gorbachov, and the beginning of Yeltsin ’s era, has always been an aggressor. In post-soviet times, Russian troops where in Transnistria, Chechnya, Abkhazia, Georgia, to mention a few. I think we were really very very lucky to get away from Russia with so few casualties.

If you want to pick on a territory which never had a say on its future because it experienced a total extermination of local population think of Kaliningrad – after the WWII Soviets deported to gulags ALL OF ITS NATIVEPOPULATION and repopulated by people who have absolutely no connection to thisland. The same happened to Tatars in Crimea… It is a true genocide but somehow nobody mentions that in order not to anger present day Russia. The problem with Russia is that it never took serious approach in disclosing Stalin’s crimes and condemning Soviet regime. It is truly worrying when I see flags with Stalin’s portraits in the present-day rallies in Sevastopol. Imagine somebody walking with Hitler’s portraits in Germany – wouldn’t you be concerned?

 

[Ike]

Lithuanian restored its independence on March 11, 1990 by an absolute majority of is democratically elected parliament- 127 votes for full independence, and 6 - abstained. In 1992, Lithuanians voted for our new Constitution with 75% turnout, where 78% voted for the Constitution of the Independent Lithuania. This was a true popular plebiscite when people showed their will about wanting to be independent from Russia, even at that time we experienced economic blockade from Russia – no petrol and no gas, and people were freezing in winter without heating, and petrol had to be transported from Poland by road.

Yes, my mistake about the year.

Lithuanian citizens wanted to live in an independent state, the borders of Lithuania coincide with ethnic make-up – 84% are Lithuanians, 6.6% - Polish and 5.8 % Russian. Polish people live compactly in one region, but there had never been an issue with Poland about it wanting to annex these territories with mainland Poland, because Poland is a democraticstate!

The same way Baltic states would have always been outvoted in the Soviet Union. You call that undemocratic, yet you fail to do same when the exact same phenomena happened during the formation of your country. You outvoted those 5% who didn't want to live in your country, and you've included them inside your newly formed borders. So did Soviet Union did with you a century ago.

Whereas Russia, with an exception of the period of end of Gorbachov, and the beginning of Yeltsin ’s era, has always been an aggressor. In post-soviet times, Russian troops where in Transnistria, Chechnya, Abkhazia, Georgia, to mention a few. I think we were really very very lucky to get away from Russia with so few casualties.

If you want to pick on a territory which never had a say on its future because it experienced a total extermination of local population think of Kaliningrad – after the WWII Soviets deported to gulags ALL OF ITS NATIVEPOPULATION and repopulated by people who have absolutely no connection to thisland. The same happened to Tatars in Crimea… It is a true genocide but somehow nobody mentions that in order not to anger present day Russia. The problem with Russia is that it never took serious approach in disclosing Stalin’s crimes and condemning Soviet regime. It is truly worrying when I see flags with Stalin’s portraits in the present-day rallies in Sevastopol. Imagine somebody walking with Hitler’s portraits in Germany – wouldn’t you be concerned?

Not quite the same. Stalin was paranoid lunatic, who wanted to protect himself, while Hitler was aggressive lunatic who wanted to harm the others. Nevertheless, they are both long time dead and gone, but the problem is we see a revamp of Hitlers politics on the West, which provokes a revamp of Stalin's politics on the East. In the echo of these stories, it is very clear what is happening:

"it's a powerful message from major powers that they're willing to follow through on NATO's eastward expansion with their own metal — and blood."

 

[Dagne]

Balticstates were occupied in 1940, therefore, Soviet Union had absolutely no right tokeep us there by voting or by force. In addition, it was perfectly legal under1990 Soviet Union's Constitution for a republic to secede from the Soviet Unionby the vote of Republic's parliament with no additional consent vote of theUSSR parliament.

To sum it up - all empires made up by force are due to fall apart. There is noway that Putin will manage to re-make its little empire by using force now.

Regarding Stalin and Hitler I agree, but to be precise, Soviet Union was notdefending itself when Stalin occupied Baltic states and Western Ukraine in 1940or started a war with Finland right before WWII. It was simply a land grab, expansionof the Soviet Union's territory following secret agreement between Hitler andStalin (see Ribbentrop-Molotov pact).

 

[LeBrok]

. The problem with Russia is that it never took serious approach in disclosing Stalin’s crimes and condemning Soviet regime. It is truly worrying when I see flags with Stalin’s portraits in the present-day rallies in Sevastopol. Imagine somebody walking with Hitler’s portraits in Germany – wouldn’t you be concerned?

Great point Dagne.

 

[Ike]

Balticstates were occupied in 1940, therefore, Soviet Union had absolutely no right tokeep us there by voting or by force. In addition, it was perfectly legal under1990 Soviet Union's Constitution for a republic to secede from the Soviet Unionby the vote of Republic's parliament with no additional consent vote of theUSSR parliament.

I agree, and I didn't say you did anything illegal.

To sum it up - all empires made up by force are due to fall apart. There is noway that Putin will manage to re-make its little empire by using force now.

Sadly, but if he decides to do it, there is not much that could stop him. Your best best is to play safe and talk to Putin to see what he wants, so that he would leave you alone.

Regarding Stalin and Hitler I agree, but to be precise, Soviet Union was notdefending itself when Stalin occupied Baltic states and Western Ukraine in 1940or started a war with Finland right before WWII. It was simply a land grab, expansionof the Soviet Union's territory following secret agreement between Hitler andStalin (see Ribbentrop-Molotov pact).

Oh yes, Soviets weren't all that good. They did wicked stuff, just as all "great countries".