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View Poll Results: The Future of Crimea

Voters
51. You may not vote on this poll
  • Crimea is special and should become an independent country

    6 11.76%
  • Crimea belongs to Ukraine

    13 25.49%
  • Crimea should become Russian, because most population is Russian

    16 31.37%
  • Crimea should become first Tatar country, the longest residing ethnicity.

    10 19.61%
  • Crimea should be returned to Greece, the first official owner.

    6 11.76%
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Thread: Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

  1. #51
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Russia is like the big bully in the schoolyard. Except, it is the big thug in the international community.

    Russia cannot realise that the days of the Soviet Union are over. It's been 23 years, they are over. (Well with the Eurasian Union, they will be ushered in again with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, etc)

    They invaded Georgia, and installed two puppet states in Georgian land (South Ossetia, and Abkhazia). Now they have invaded the Ukraine, and it seems that instead of installing a puppet state, they want to reincorporate it into Russia. And they want to do this near the eve of 50 years of Crimea being Ukrainian.

    I fear that this will turn into WW3. It seems that the EU and NATO will intervene, and they should. However, if they do, it will certainly turn into a huge war.

    Some people try to play this down as Russia defending it's Black Sea Fleet. This is Russia try to take Crimea back.

    The first settlers of Crimea were the Greeks. The Greeks should be given the Crime. They would govern it better, they would incorporate it into the European Union, and they would tolerate, and encourage diversity; both ethnic and linguistic.

    However, I consider it unlikely that the Greeks would get the Crimea.

    In such a case, then either the Tatars or the Ukrainians should be given/keep the Crimea. The Tatars were a majority for a very long time, and their presence only diminished because of the Soviet Union's policies towards them under Stalin. All Tatars should be offered residence in Crimea, and it should become the first Tatar state in modern times.

    This scenario is possible, but will probably not happen (though the Greeks or the Tatars really deserve the Crimea as for the Greeks; it was their's first, and for the Tatars; it was their's the longest.)

    If these two scenarios cannot happen, then the Ukrainians should keep the Crimea. I know that Russians are the linguistic majority in the Crimea. However, if given to Russia, the Crimean people's rights would be taken away, and they would become just another oblast. And if given independence, they would be like South Ossetia, or Belarus; a Russian puppet state. However, it is unlikely that the Russians will cede to Ukrainian demands that the Russians retreat. They have not ceded to EU, NATO, and American warnings and demands, so they will not cede to Ukrainian ones. Putin is an *******, he doesn't care what the Ukrainians want, or what The West wants, Putin doesn't even care about the Russian people. Putin cares about what Putin wants. So if the Russians don't retreat (which they won't), it is not likely that Ukraine will be able to regain Crimea by themselves, they would have to regain it by force with the help of NATO, EU, and/or the US.

    At the moment Crimea is Russian, they have control of it. I hope that either the Greeks or the Tatars get Crimea, or that Ukraine regains control of the Crimea.

    But about Putin.

    Perhaps Putin does all of these things to express his anger, his anger for hiding his homosexuality. If he just came out of the closet, and embraced who he is, perhaps he would not act in this manner. We all now he's gay, he should just come out of the closet already! There isn't anything wrong with being gay!

    If he came out, he would probably act like he does now, though I hope he would change.

    But to answer the title of this thread, "Should Crimea be an independent country", I would say it should incorporated into Greece, or become an independent Tatar state. Otherwise, it should not get independence. (Also, if it was a Tatar state, it would probably align itself with Turkey, which would be better than with Russia, and if Turkey joins the EU, Crimea would probably join shortly after.)

    Oh, and to Russians, the Slavs who call themselves "Soviets and "Yugoslavians" who have posted on this thread, you need to get unbrainwashed, they have many classes that can help you with that. Also, stop reading the Russian propaganda! Read factual, Western news such as the BBC!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    This is just madness. The people there on both sides are surely going through hell. But who is profiting from this? EU certainly not, they're not actively trying to add another poor satellite, after what happened with Greece.
    This wikipedia summary about this book from a polish-american could shed some light to the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    Well I don't see any imperialism, the only thing what Russian Federation did is warned illegitimate Ukranian neo-nazi radical gangs at power that RF will not tolerate violence towards Russian community in Ukraine. The Crimea peoples will decide themselves it's furture on referendum scheduled for March 30.


    I am afraid Anglo-Saxon family of countries as well as you Lebrok don't distinguish words "friend" & "vassal". The "Good" for you only the one who fulfills all your orders unquestioningly like a lapdog and bad any other who has their own opinion. You de-facto have only vassals & enemies on the borderline.
    Ha Ha exactly the same expression as I would expect from Poles brainwashed in communist times. They are blind for Russian imperialist policy, and every misery and suffering in the world is caused by vampire-capitalists from USA and Western Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by soket View Post
    You are absolutely not aware of the current situation in Ukraine.

    Svoboda party and the government does not have power in the country, it's puppets.
    Power in the country is located at
    Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor) is a Ukrainian militant group consisting mostly of young men with right-wing, ultra right-wing, borderline fascist or neofascist views.
    Speaking about his attitude towards non-Ukrainians, Yarosh referred to controversial WWII figure Stepan Bandera as a model. For those fighting with Right Sector "for Ukraine," Yarosh stated that they should be treated "as comrades." For those opposing "the Ukrainian people's national liberation struggle," Yarosh stated that they should be treated "in a hostile way.
    Andriy Tarasenko in an interview stated, among other things, that territories of Poland like Przemysl should become part of Ukraine and that it should regain nuclear weapons
    Prawy Sektor is a group of people working in favor of Putin's policy they gave reasons to attack Ukraine and they gave reasons to stop Polish support for democratic changes in Ukraine. Who is taking advantage from this? Of course Putin!
    So, in my opinion this extremist deserve be eliminated from political scene. Especially glorification of the butcher Stefan Bandera is the sign of their brainlessness. Yatseniuk is aware of this and doing his best to keep Ukraine as one country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Yanukovich won the latest electons legitimately. So, how would you feel if a "group of civilians" stumbled down to Warshaw and started shooting at the police, and forced your president that you elected out of the city?

    With an experience I have in situations like these, I say that only mistake Yanaukovich made was not to shoot down all the terrorist. All of them together with their leaders should have been put to death. It's what any other democratic leader would do. He was elected by his people to a certain function, and it's his responsibility to defend the country and legal institutions from intruders.

    Possible war is the price country may pay, for Yanaukovich not doing what he was supposed to do.
    First of all water cannons are the best way to stop protests especially in winter when temperature is -10C. But in Ukraine it is not the case, Yanukovich wasn’t able to stop the protests because in administration and in very influential oligarchs he had opposition. That is why for last four months inner conflict escalated in Ukraine. One more thing, Yanukovich deceived the public in case of his foreign policy and that made Ukrainians angry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    What has got Putin to do with terrorist that are coming from EU to Ukraine to start a war?
    I thing “Prawy Sektor” is supported by Russian Federation. I just explained it to user Soket. Everything go along game theory.



    Edit: Russian Federation attacks Ukraine to protect Russian minority, but nothing happened to them. So what is next? Maybe Time for Latvia where Russians have to pass Language exam to gain citizenship of Republic of Latvia? The Russian minority in this country make 26.9%. Should Latvians feel threatened?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboygcp View Post
    But to answer the title of this thread, "Should Crimea be an independent country", I would say it should incorporated into Greece, or become an independent Tatar state. Otherwise, it should not get independence. (Also, if it was a Tatar state, it would probably align itself with Turkey, which would be better than with Russia, and if Turkey joins the EU, Crimea would probably join shortly after.)

    Oh, and to Russians, the Slavs who call themselves "Soviets and "Yugoslavians" who have posted on this thread, you need to get unbrainwashed, they have many classes that can help you with that. Also, stop reading the Russian propaganda! Read factual, Western news such as the BBC!
    LMAO, how old are you? It looks like that you don't know anything about what is going on around the Black Sea. Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants. They have nothing to do with Crimea. Also Turkey is occupying Cyprus (Greece) and Northern Kurdistan. As long as Turkey is occupying Cyprus and Northern Kurdistan Turkey will never join the EU. Also Turks are immigrants to the region like all other Tatars are. They don't belong in Europe.

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    I was born in the USSR, in Georgia. And also I was a 'Soviet' citizen. And I don't like the idea that the US (Western World + Jews) will be the only hegemony (super power) in the world. US is not better that the Russians. The Western World also measures with the double standard. If they were such a big democrats they would support Kurdistan against Islamic, Arabic and Turkic occupiers. The Western World is nothing but hypocrites. They’re not better than Russia. The US also attack whoever they want without asking Russia and China, like attacking Yougoslavia / Serbia (Kosovo)! Also, believe me, nobody can break Russia! Russia is to BIG. Napoleon tried, the Turks tried, the Persians tried, the Nazi-Germans tried, but nobody succeeded. Why can’t people take example out of this past. Why is Germany still trying to break Russia? The US betrayed Kurds big time. Americans and Europeans are a bunch of hypocrites. And that’s why as a Kurd I will not support US policy as long as they don’t change their attitude and become REAL democrats, by supporting nations that have a right for self-determination like Kurdistan! I don't like Russia but I don’t like the current (Middle Eastern) policy of America either!
    Last edited by Goga; 03-03-14 at 16:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok
    Last edited by LeBrok; Today at 04:44. Reason: This is not Russian or your propaganda board. Refrain from posting such material. You've crossed the line..
    Ja wohl, mein Fuhrer.

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    Perhaps out of respect for the 100 victims of Kiev, we should close this topic
    They did not speak, he crawled under fire killers.
    So I propose that we close our mouths.

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    Well, whoever is playing with fire should accept that he/she can be caught by fire! If you don't want to burn by fire and become a 'victim' don't play with fire at all at the first place. What goes around comes around. Western Ukraine is (and will be) the poorest country in Europe. And if/when they split Ukraine in 2 parts, nobody in Europe will ever care about Western Ukraine at all. Western Ukraine has nothing. Why should Germany and the US give own money to Western Ukraine for nothing? Even a bankrupt Greece is more important than the 3rd world country like Western Ukraine...
    Last edited by Goga; 03-03-14 at 18:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    LMAO, how old are you? It looks like that you don't know anything about what is going on around the Black Sea. Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants. They have nothing to do with Crimea. Also Turkey is occupying Cyprus (Greece) and Northern Kurdistan. As long as Turkey is occupying Cyprus and Northern Kurdistan Turkey will never join the EU. Also Turks are immigrants to the region like all other Tatars are.

    How do you suggest is the original ethnicity to give Crimea to them?


    They don't belong in Europe.
    What is your cut off date, 1,000 years or more, to be a rightful owner of a land? Perhaps Kurds should be kicked out off Middle East, after all they came there as immigrants at one time.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    As long as the original native population does exist in the region the 'immigrants' will be always 'the immigrants'. Indo-European (Hellenic & Slavic) speaking people were in Crimea before the Turkic speaking Tatars and as long as Slavic language is spoken in Crimea, Turkic language will be always considered as language of the immigrants. Like on Cyprus Turkic will never be considered as the native language as long as Hellenic people do live on Cyprus.

    Kurds came from nowhere. As far as I know Kurds are the OLDEST inhabitants of the ancient land of Kurdistan (South Eastern Taurus - Zagros mountains). Arabs (and other Semites) came to the region after Kurds. Turks came to region after Kurds etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Western Ukraine is (and will be) the poorest country in Europe. And if/when they split Ukraine in 2 parts, nobody in Europe will ever care about Western Ukraine at all.
    I'm sure you would say the same about Ireland 20 years ago. It was the poorest country in Europe.
    And it is not that Europe or US cares for Ireland more right now. The Irish made it by themselves and it is what counts the most. The tools for success are out there in the open. It is up to countries to use them to make them rich and citizens free and happy.

    23 years ago Poland and Ukraine got their independence from Soviet Union and finally could choose their own paths. Poland chose to be in Western influence and started a capitalist economy. Poland's GDP grew 3 fold since, people are content, and country is peaceful. Ukraine on other hand has chosen Russian influence and didn't reform their economy. As a result Ukrainian economy is stagnant and at same level as 20 years ago, people are unhappy and frustrated. That's how revolution happens.

    If Ukraine splits, at least the Western part will get a big chance to reform, westernize, grow economy in connection with EU, and good chance joining Union in 10-20 years.




    Even a bankrupt Greece is more important than the 3rd world country like Western Ukraine...
    Why is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    As long as the original native population does exist in the region the 'immigrants' will be always 'the immigrants'. Indo-European (Hellenic & Slavic) speaking people were in Crimea before the Turkic speaking Tatars and as long as Slavic language is spoken in Crimea, Turkic language will be always considered as language of the immigrants. Like on Cyprus Turkic will never be considered as the native language as long as Hellenic people do live on Cyprus.


    Do you have any historical material proving existence of Hellenic or Slavic speakers in Crimea before Tatar invasion?


    Kurds came from nowhere. As far as I know Kurds are the OLDEST inhabitants of the ancient land of Kurdistan (South Eastern Taurus - Zagros mountains).
    Same with Tatars. Before Russians came 93% of citizens declared themselves as Tatars. The remaining 7% could have been as well emigrants, traders or Ottoman Troops leftover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    Do you have any historical material proving existence of Hellenic or Slavic speakers in Crimea before Tatar invasion?
    Not trying to label Tatars as "Immigrants" who have no right on Crimea but he is right in that point that Tatars are indeed not really the natives. I think you provided yourself the sources which says that Crimea was Greek even before it was Tatar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Not trying to label Tatars as "Immigrants" who have no right on Crimea but he is right in that point that Tatars are indeed not really the natives. I think you provided yourself the sources which says that Crimea was Greek even before it was Tatar.
    Can we find really true natives anymore there?
    In lack of true natives Tatars are next on list of longest continues ethnicity there, therefore natives. (at same time being immigrants, lol, Life always throws curveballs)

    And before it was Tatar it was Iranic (Cimmerian and later Scythian).
    What if Tatars belonged to Scythian confederation? They have undisputable Scythian cultural character. Ride small horses, shoot same bows, ware same cloths, etc. Well not now of course, but one can see some cultural continuity with Scythians in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm sure you would say the same about Ireland 20 years ago. It was the poorest country in Europe.
    And it is not that Europe or US cares for Ireland more right now. The Irish made it by themselves and it is what counts the most. The tools for success are out there in the open. It is up to countries to use them to make them rich and citizens free and happy.

    23 years ago Poland and Ukraine got their independence from Soviet Union and finally could choose their own paths. Poland chose to be in Western influence and started a capitalist economy. Poland's GDP grew 3 fold since, people are content, and country is peaceful. Ukraine on other hand has chosen Russian influence and didn't reform their economy. As a result Ukrainian economy is stagnant and at same level as 20 years ago, people are unhappy and frustrated. That's how revolution happens.

    If Ukraine splits, at least the Western part will get a big chance to reform, westernize, grow economy in connection with EU, and good chance joining Union in 10-20 years.
    Poland and other East European countries are still the poorest countries in Europe. I think they will always be the poorest countries in Europe.
    Why is that?
    Since the very first beginning of the European civilization Greece was part of Europe. Actually Greece is the cradle of the European civilization. Nowadays Greece is a fully integrated part of the EU and has an euro as an official currency. If it is going economically bad with Greece that means it is bad for the whole European Union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Can we find really true natives anymore there?
    In lack of true natives Tatars are next on list of longest continues ethnicity there, therefore natives. (at same time being immigrants, lol, Life always throws curveballs)

    What if Tatars belonged to Scythian confederation? They have undisputable Scythian cultural character. Ride small horses, shoot same bows, ware same cloths, etc. Well not now of course, but one can see some cultural continuity with Scythians in the past.
    Unlikely. When Tatars appeared Scythians were gone already. They likely have absorbed the Scythians and adopted Scythian culture and tactics since as we know Turkic speakers are basically a merging of Iranic groups with Mongols. But this doesn't make them Scythians anyways because they are not a direct ethno-linguistic descend of them. Otherwise we could simply consider Russians as descend of Scythians too because they absorbed allot of them.

    Also before it was Tatar it was Iranic (Cimmerian and later Scythian and than Sarmatian). Even Romans and Pontic Kingdom (Iranic, Hellenistic mixed) came before the Tatars.

    Taurica was the name of Crimea in antiquity. Taurica was inhabited by a variety of peoples. The inland regions were inhabited by Scythians and the mountainous south coast by the Taures, an offshoot of the Cimmerians. Greek settlers inhabited a number of colonies along the coast of the peninsula, notably the city of Chersonesos in modern Sevastopol. In the 2nd[citation needed] century BC the eastern part of Taurica became part of the Bosporan Kingdom, before being incorporated into the Roman Empire in the 1st century BC. During the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries AD, Taurica was host to Roman legions
    According to Wikipedia even the Kievan Rus came before the Tatars (who migrated during the early Middle Ages into the Region).


    As I said I would have no problems with a Tatar state on the Crimea but I really don't like the idea of another territory being under influence of arrogant pan Turkic politics. Who are to good to give the same (and even less) rights to their own minorities


    If really any of you were in the position to have ever the "chance" to see Turkish political arrogance andhypocrisy in these kind of things you would throw up.

    Some people here demand a state for Tatars just because of "some shootings" on civilians. And Turkey just nods in agreement. If this is enough to demand a state for Tatars what can still justify the non existence of at least a Kurdish autonomy in Turkey? A Tatar state would be like presence for Turkey attitude towards their minorities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Poland and other East European countries are still the poorest countries in Europe. I think they will always be the poorest countries in Europe.
    What is your reasoning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What is your reasoning?
    Because they have no natural resources and no international industry, nothing and will be always dependent on other countries with the natural resources. How will they become rich? Out of air?
    Also, I'm looking at the history. Historically speaking Eastern European countries were always the poorest (after the Renaissance & Industrial Revolution), because I guess they were never a 'colonial' power. South European countries like Portugal, Spain had colonies oversea. Also countries like Spain and Portugal have a great (export) market in South America. Northern Italian industry is very advanced. The climate in Greece is very nice, also I believe that Greece can offer Europe much more that the East European countries. Not only the climate in Greece is very lenient and therefore good for tourism and agricultural products etc, also Greece is on the crossroad between Europe and Asia. Very strategic place!

    The only chance for the Eastern European countries to become rich is higher education and technology or financial market.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The only chance for the Eastern European countries to become rich is higher education and technology or financial market.
    If you see a chance why you said never?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboygcp View Post
    Russia is like the big bully in the schoolyard. Except, it is the big thug in the international community.

    Russia cannot realise that the days of the Soviet Union are over. It's been 23 years, they are over. (Well with the Eurasian Union, they will be ushered in again with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, etc)

    They invaded Georgia, and installed two puppet states in Georgian land (South Ossetia, and Abkhazia). Now they have invaded the Ukraine, and it seems that instead of installing a puppet state, they want to reincorporate it into Russia. And they want to do this near the eve of 50 years of Crimea being Ukrainian.
    Sorry if disappointed you, but world is not unipolar anymore and history did not stopped like Francis Fukuyama wanted to portray in his book after fall of communism. That's funny how you talk about Russia's sins while your own country built on the bones of Indians. And remind me how many countries became your victims for last 10 years???

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboygcp View Post
    The first settlers of Crimea were the Greeks. The Greeks should be given the Crime. They would govern it better, they would incorporate it into the European Union, and they would tolerate, and encourage diversity; both ethnic and linguistic.
    According to this logic, I recommend you to give Florida to Spain, Texas & California back to Mexico, other lands which stole your precursors to remnants of Indians which you hold in reservation camps. And don't forget to close the web of CIA secret prisons across the world together with Guantanamo
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    If you see a chance why you said never?
    Because if the Eastern European countries try to take over the financial / technology market that would mean that that will come at the expense of the West European countries and Anglo-Saxon & Scandinavian countries will become poorer. I don't think that they would make that happen. When it comes out on money there's no 'brotherhood' of nations and anarchy of survival of the fittest applies as a natural law. Competition is a ..... .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Because if the Eastern European countries try to take over the financial / technology market that would mean that that will come at the expense of the West European countries and Anglo-Saxon & Scandinavian countries will become poorer. I don't think that they would make that happen. When it comes out on money there's no 'brotherhood' of nations and anarchy of survival of the fittest applies as a natural law. Competition is a ..... .
    You are assuming that there is no other way of growing economically and financially than to take away a portion of rich countries economy. So how was it possible for small Ireland and small Singapore to "steal" from rich and powerful countries? How is it possible to take something away from strong and powerful?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Unlikely. When Tatars appeared Scythians were gone already. They likely have absorbed the Scythians and adopted Scythian culture and tactics since as we know Turkic speakers are basically a merging of Iranic groups with Mongols. But this doesn't make them Scythians anyways because they are not a direct ethno-linguistic descend of them. Otherwise we could simply consider Russians as descend of Scythians too because they absorbed allot of them.
    I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.
    absolutely and even today, the slavonic are not breeders, they are essentiellment descendant of farmers and hunter-gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    LMAO, how old are you? It looks like that you don't know anything about what is going on around the Black Sea. Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants. They have nothing to do with Crimea. Also Turkey is occupying Cyprus (Greece) and Northern Kurdistan. As long as Turkey is occupying Cyprus and Northern Kurdistan Turkey will never join the EU. Also Turks are immigrants to the region like all other Tatars are. They don't belong in Europe.
    It is none of your business what my age is. "Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants" The Tatars have been in Crimea since 1441, 563 years! They came long before the Russians did, the Russians only came rather recently! They have much to do with Crimea! As the Greeks and Tatars in Crimea are the only current inhabitants who have been in Crimea over 500 years, the Russians only in the past 250 years.

    A Turkish-supported regime is occupying the northern part of Cyprus, this is true. However, Cyprus is not Greece, many people in Cyprus are of Greek descent, but Cyprus and Greece are separate countries. I am of Greek descent, I do not support what is happening in northern Cyprus, Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the Greek government, and the Turkish government are negotiating a settlement between all sides.

    As to what you call "Northern Kurdistan", I believe you are referring to southeast Turkey. There is no Northern Kurdistan. This region is a fundamental part of the Turkish state. Your people would be better off being a part of Turkey, than receiving independence; as if you do, Southeastern Turkey would destabilise, and become like Iraq. I am not saying that the Kurdish-majority region(s) of Turkey should not have semi- or fully autonomy, which would be good. In addition, when Turkey joins the EU, Kurds will likely have more cultural and linguistic protection due to various treaties and policies employed by The European Union.

    And regarding the statement "Turks are immigrants to the region as Tatars are." We have already established that Tatars are not immigrants. It is true that Turks did emigrate to Anatolia, but this happened very long ago. In addition, since the original people of Anatolia (the Greeks), have been ousted from Anatolia (except for some Greeks which did stay, or have come back to Turkey), it is unlikely that Anatolia would be returned to the Greeks, and it will likely stay Turkish. And I am alright with that, as it has been Turkish for a long time.

    Also, I am assuming that you are an immigrant! And a recent one at that, the Kurds have not been in The Netherlands for hundreds or thousands of years! Perhaps a few decades.

    Anyhow, this thread is regarding Crimea, not Turkey, there are other threads that are regarding Turkey.

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