Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[LeBrok]

Western Ukraine is (and will be) the poorest country in Europe. And if/when they split Ukraine in 2 parts, nobody in Europe will ever care about Western Ukraine at all.

I'm sure you would say the same about Ireland 20 years ago. It was the poorest country in Europe.
And it is not that Europe or US cares for Ireland more right now. The Irish made it by themselves and it is what counts the most. The tools for success are out there in the open. It is up to countries to use them to make them rich and citizens free and happy.

23 years ago Poland and Ukraine got their independence from Soviet Union and finally could choose their own paths. Poland chose to be in Western influence and started a capitalist economy. Poland's GDP grew 3 fold since, people are content, and country is peaceful. Ukraine on other hand has chosen Russian influence and didn't reform their economy. As a result Ukrainian economy is stagnant and at same level as 20 years ago, people are unhappy and frustrated. That's how revolution happens.

If Ukraine splits, at least the Western part will get a big chance to reform, westernize, grow economy in connection with EU, and good chance joining Union in 10-20 years.

Even a bankrupt Greece is more important than the 3rd world country like Western Ukraine...

Why is that?

 

[LeBrok]

As long as the original native population does exist in the region the 'immigrants' will be always 'the immigrants'. Indo-European (Hellenic & Slavic) speaking people were in Crimea before the Turkic speaking Tatars and as long as Slavic language is spoken in Crimea, Turkic language will be always considered as language of the immigrants. Like on Cyprus Turkic will never be considered as the native language as long as Hellenic people do live on Cyprus.

Do you have any historical material proving existence of Hellenic or Slavic speakers in Crimea before Tatar invasion?

Kurds came from nowhere. As far as I know Kurds are the OLDEST inhabitants of the ancient land of Kurdistan (South Eastern Taurus - Zagros mountains).

Same with Tatars. Before Russians came 93% of citizens declared themselves as Tatars. The remaining 7% could have been as well emigrants, traders or Ottoman Troops leftover.

 

[Alan]

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Do you have any historical material proving existence of Hellenic or Slavic speakers in Crimea before Tatar invasion?

Not trying to label Tatars as "Immigrants" who have no right on Crimea but he is right in that point that Tatars are indeed not really the natives. I think you provided yourself the sources which says that Crimea was Greek even before it was Tatar.

 

[LeBrok]

Not trying to label Tatars as "Immigrants" who have no right on Crimea but he is right in that point that Tatars are indeed not really the natives. I think you provided yourself the sources which says that Crimea was Greek even before it was Tatar.

Can we find really true natives anymore there?
In lack of true natives Tatars are next on list of longest continues ethnicity there, therefore natives. (at same time being immigrants, lol, Life always throws curveballs)

And before it was Tatar it was Iranic (Cimmerian and later Scythian).

What if Tatars belonged to Scythian confederation? They have undisputable Scythian cultural character. Ride small horses, shoot same bows, ware same cloths, etc. Well not now of course, but one can see some cultural continuity with Scythians in the past.

 

[Goga]

I'm sure you would say the same about Ireland 20 years ago. It was the poorest country in Europe.
And it is not that Europe or US cares for Ireland more right now. The Irish made it by themselves and it is what counts the most. The tools for success are out there in the open. It is up to countries to use them to make them rich and citizens free and happy.

23 years ago Poland and Ukraine got their independence from Soviet Union and finally could choose their own paths. Poland chose to be in Western influence and started a capitalist economy. Poland's GDP grew 3 fold since, people are content, and country is peaceful. Ukraine on other hand has chosen Russian influence and didn't reform their economy. As a result Ukrainian economy is stagnant and at same level as 20 years ago, people are unhappy and frustrated. That's how revolution happens.

If Ukraine splits, at least the Western part will get a big chance to reform, westernize, grow economy in connection with EU, and good chance joining Union in 10-20 years.

Poland and other East European countries are still the poorest countries in Europe. I think they will always be the poorest countries in Europe.

Why is that?

Since the very first beginning of the European civilization Greece was part of Europe. Actually Greece is the cradle of the European civilization. Nowadays Greece is a fully integrated part of the EU and has an euro as an official currency. If it is going economically bad with Greece that means it is bad for the whole European Union.

 

[Alan]

Can we find really true natives anymore there?
In lack of true natives Tatars are next on list of longest continues ethnicity there, therefore natives. (at same time being immigrants, lol, Life always throws curveballs)

What if Tatars belonged to Scythian confederation? They have undisputable Scythian cultural character. Ride small horses, shoot same bows, ware same cloths, etc. Well not now of course, but one can see some cultural continuity with Scythians in the past.

Unlikely. When Tatars appeared Scythians were gone already. They likely have absorbed the Scythians and adopted Scythian culture and tactics since as we know Turkic speakers are basically a merging of Iranic groups with Mongols. But this doesn't make them Scythians anyways because they are not a direct ethno-linguistic descend of them. Otherwise we could simply consider Russians as descend of Scythians too because they absorbed allot of them.

Also before it was Tatar it was Iranic (Cimmerian and later Scythian and than Sarmatian). Even Romans and Pontic Kingdom (Iranic, Hellenistic mixed) came before the Tatars.

Taurica was the name of Crimea in antiquity. Taurica was inhabited by a variety of peoples. The inland regions were inhabited by Scythians and the mountainous south coast by the Taures, an offshoot of the Cimmerians. Greek settlers inhabited a number of colonies along the coast of the peninsula, notably the city of Chersonesos in modern Sevastopol. In the 2nd^{[citation needed]} century BC the eastern part of Taurica became part of the Bosporan Kingdom, before being incorporated into the Roman Empire in the 1st century BC. During the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries AD, Taurica was host to Roman legions

According to Wikipedia even the Kievan Rus came before the Tatars (who migrated during the early Middle Ages into the Region).


As I said I would have no problems with a Tatar state on the Crimea but I really don't like the idea of another territory being under influence of arrogant pan Turkic politics. Who are to good to give the same (and even less) rights to their own minorities


If really any of you were in the position to have ever the "chance" to see Turkish political arrogance andhypocrisy in these kind of things you would throw up.

Some people here demand a state for Tatars just because of "some shootings" on civilians. And Turkey just nods in agreement. If this is enough to demand a state for Tatars what can still justify the non existence of at least a Kurdish autonomy in Turkey? A Tatar state would be like presence for Turkey attitude towards their minorities.

 

[LeBrok]

Poland and other East European countries are still the poorest countries in Europe. I think they will always be the poorest countries in Europe.

What is your reasoning?

 

[Goga]

What is your reasoning?

Because they have no natural resources and no international industry, nothing and will be always dependent on other countries with the natural resources. How will they become rich? Out of air?
Also, I'm looking at the history. Historically speaking Eastern European countries were always the poorest (after the Renaissance & Industrial Revolution), because I guess they were never a 'colonial' power. South European countries like Portugal, Spain had colonies oversea. Also countries like Spain and Portugal have a great (export) market in South America. Northern Italian industry is very advanced. The climate in Greece is very nice, also I believe that Greece can offer Europe much more that the East European countries. Not only the climate in Greece is very lenient and therefore good for tourism and agricultural products etc, also Greece is on the crossroad between Europe and Asia. Very strategic place!

The only chance for the Eastern European countries to become rich is higher education and technology or financial market.

 

[LeBrok]

The only chance for the Eastern European countries to become rich is higher education and technology or financial market.

If you see a chance why you said never?

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Russia is like the big bully in the schoolyard. Except, it is the big thug in the international community.

Russia cannot realise that the days of the Soviet Union are over. It's been 23 years, they are over. (Well with the Eurasian Union, they will be ushered in again with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, etc)

They invaded Georgia, and installed two puppet states in Georgian land (South Ossetia, and Abkhazia). Now they have invaded the Ukraine, and it seems that instead of installing a puppet state, they want to reincorporate it into Russia. And they want to do this near the eve of 50 years of Crimea being Ukrainian.

Sorry if disappointed you, but world is not unipolar anymore and history did not stopped like Francis Fukuyama wanted to portray in his book after fall of communism. That's funny how you talk about Russia's sins while your own country built on the bones of Indians. And remind me how many countries became your victims for last 10 years???

The first settlers of Crimea were the Greeks. The Greeks should be given the Crime. They would govern it better, they would incorporate it into the European Union, and they would tolerate, and encourage diversity; both ethnic and linguistic.

According to this logic, I recommend you to give Florida to Spain, Texas & California back to Mexico, other lands which stole your precursors to remnants of Indians which you hold in reservation camps. And don't forget to close the web of CIA secret prisons across the world together with Guantanamo

 

[Goga]

If you see a chance why you said never?

Because if the Eastern European countries try to take over the financial / technology market that would mean that that will come at the expense of the West European countries and Anglo-Saxon & Scandinavian countries will become poorer. I don't think that they would make that happen. When it comes out on money there's no 'brotherhood' of nations and anarchy of survival of the fittest applies as a natural law. Competition is a ..... .

 

[LeBrok]

Because if the Eastern European countries try to take over the financial / technology market that would mean that that will come at the expense of the West European countries and Anglo-Saxon & Scandinavian countries will become poorer. I don't think that they would make that happen. When it comes out on money there's no 'brotherhood' of nations and anarchy of survival of the fittest applies as a natural law. Competition is a ..... .

You are assuming that there is no other way of growing economically and financially than to take away a portion of rich countries economy. So how was it possible for small Ireland and small Singapore to "steal" from rich and powerful countries? How is it possible to take something away from strong and powerful?

 

[LeBrok]

Unlikely. When Tatars appeared Scythians were gone already. They likely have absorbed the Scythians and adopted Scythian culture and tactics since as we know Turkic speakers are basically a merging of Iranic groups with Mongols. But this doesn't make them Scythians anyways because they are not a direct ethno-linguistic descend of them. Otherwise we could simply consider Russians as descend of Scythians too because they absorbed allot of them.

I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.

 

[martiko]

I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.

absolutely and even today, the slavonic are not breeders, they are essentiellment descendant of farmers and hunter-gatherers.

 

[Coolboygcp]

LMAO, how old are you? It looks like that you don't know anything about what is going on around the Black Sea. Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants. They have nothing to do with Crimea. Also Turkey is occupying Cyprus (Greece) and Northern Kurdistan. As long as Turkey is occupying Cyprus and Northern Kurdistan Turkey will never join the EU. Also Turks are immigrants to the region like all other Tatars are. They don't belong in Europe.

It is none of your business what my age is. "Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants" The Tatars have been in Crimea since 1441, 563 years! They came long before the Russians did, the Russians only came rather recently! They have much to do with Crimea! As the Greeks and Tatars in Crimea are the only current inhabitants who have been in Crimea over 500 years, the Russians only in the past 250 years.

A Turkish-supported regime is occupying the northern part of Cyprus, this is true. However, Cyprus is not Greece, many people in Cyprus are of Greek descent, but Cyprus and Greece are separate countries. I am of Greek descent, I do not support what is happening in northern Cyprus, Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the Greek government, and the Turkish government are negotiating a settlement between all sides.

As to what you call "Northern Kurdistan", I believe you are referring to southeast Turkey. There is no Northern Kurdistan. This region is a fundamental part of the Turkish state. Your people would be better off being a part of Turkey, than receiving independence; as if you do, Southeastern Turkey would destabilise, and become like Iraq. I am not saying that the Kurdish-majority region(s) of Turkey should not have semi- or fully autonomy, which would be good. In addition, when Turkey joins the EU, Kurds will likely have more cultural and linguistic protection due to various treaties and policies employed by The European Union.

And regarding the statement "Turks are immigrants to the region as Tatars are." We have already established that Tatars are not immigrants. It is true that Turks did emigrate to Anatolia, but this happened very long ago. In addition, since the original people of Anatolia (the Greeks), have been ousted from Anatolia (except for some Greeks which did stay, or have come back to Turkey), it is unlikely that Anatolia would be returned to the Greeks, and it will likely stay Turkish. And I am alright with that, as it has been Turkish for a long time.

Also, I am assuming that you are an immigrant! And a recent one at that, the Kurds have not been in The Netherlands for hundreds or thousands of years! Perhaps a few decades. :grin:

Anyhow, this thread is regarding Crimea, not Turkey, there are other threads that are regarding Turkey.

 

[Alan]

I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.

Somewhere I once red that Iranic tribes (Scythians) were at the beginning farmers too and became herders. breeders are not very different from farmers. breeding is just a second phase of farming in lands which are not suited to traditional farming.

 

[Goga]

Also, I am assuming that you are an immigrant! And a recent one at that, the Kurds have not been in The Netherlands for hundreds or thousands of years! Perhaps a few decades. :grin:

Of course am I. First generation! :grin: And I hope temporary, like my ancestors were 'temporary' immigrants in Russia/Georgia. Outside Kurdistan, Kurds will be always 'immigrants' to their adopted land. Once Kurdistan is established huge Kurdish diaspora in Europe will go back. at this moment Europe is a 'safe haven' for us, the Kurds. We don't try to impose our will to the native people of Europe. We Kurds don't try to steal and Kurdify land of native Europeans, we don't try to convert natives to a different religion, we Kurds don't try to impose our language to native people and eradicate the native people. We're not trying to genocidethe native people of Europe. All those things Turkic thieves did to native people of Eastern Europe and West Asia.

BTW. I assume you’re (most of your ancestors) are immigrants too from Europe who settled in the States. :cool-v:

 

[Coolboygcp]

Sorry if disappointed you, but world is not unipolar anymore and history did not stopped like Francis Fukuyama wanted to portray in his book after fall of communism. That's funny how you talk about Russia's sins while your own country built on the bones of Indians. And remind me how many countries became your victims for last 10 years???



According to this logic, I recommend you to give Florida to Spain, Texas & California back to Mexico, other lands which stole your precursors to remnants of Indians which you hold in reservation camps. And don't forget to close the web of CIA secret prisons across the world together with Guantanamo

First off, I do not even know who the hell Francis Fukuyama is. Why did you assume I am from the US. I am from there, but it appears that you assumed. I believe the ethnic group you are referring to are Native Americans, or Indigenous Amerians, or Aboriginal Americans. If you are referring to the Indians from India, then the US was not built on their bones, and there are no Indians in reservation camps, Indians only came recently to the US.

If you are referring the native people of the US, then you are also incorrect. The US was built by The British Empire, then when this country stupidly declared independence from them, it was built by various immigrants groups, largely from Europe, and some slaves. The Native Americans are not in "reservation camps", as you say, they are in self-governed, autonomous arras of lands which are named "Native Americaj Reservations", now, yes the name sucks, but it is not a Soviet/Russian death or concentration camp, as you attempt to portray them as.

The Spanish gave Florida to the British. The US took Florida from the British illegally, and the British should get it back. (Though it will never happen.)

California and Texas became of the US legally, and were incorporated to the US willingly, as both were sovereign nations at the time.

The Native Americans are not going to get their land back, it has been too long, and their numbers have dwindled significantly.

The government should close their secret prisons, and Guantanamo too. Just because I have American nationality, does not mean that I support or control the actions of the government, which I do not. I am a European American, and I feel very European, and I identify with European values more that American ones.

What about your country, where your secretly gay President, who in his spare time when he is not declaring war on a country, invading a country, supplying arms to bloodthirsty regimes, supporting dictatorships like his own, and helping to fund completely non-democratic regimes that allow the majority of their citizens to starve, and which have nuclear weapons thanks to Putin, as well as trying to reestablish the empire that Russia lost; rides horses, fishes, and shoots a shotgun amongst other things with his shirt off. Does the man do everything with his shirt off? I suppose he does it to seduce the Russian gay male population.

Also, that photo that you posted is not factual, and all of the regimes in the photo were supported by Russia, funded by Russia, and given arms by Russia!

You need to realise that the Soviet Union is over! It is dead, and is never coming back! Get over it already! And read actual news like the BBC instead of The Voice of Russia and Russia Today! The EU is good, The West is good, and Russia and it's allies are the ones that are bad, the ones that sensible nations in the international community do nit respect, because they are all a group of bullies and assholes.

You need to get unbrainwashed. And I am glad that not all Russian people buy into the propaganda purveyed by the Russian government, as you have.

 

[Goga]

First off, I do not even know who the hell Francis Fukuyama is.

OMG, you never heard of Fukuyama? This is general knowledge. If you even just read 1 article (not mentioning a book) about global geopolitics, you would know him. I know enough about you, I hope for you that you're very young. Sorry for bothering you...

 

[Goga]

You are assuming that there is no other way of growing economically and financially than to take away a portion of rich countries economy. So how was it possible for small Ireland and small Singapore to "steal" from rich and powerful countries? How is it possible to take something away from strong and powerful?

Why do you come with such a naive reasoning? Because I'm sure that you know that this reasoning is wrong. Ireland is part of the Anglo-Saxon world. How can you compare Singapore with the East European countries? 2 different worlds! Singapore is a 'distribution land', a main port. One of the most important corridors in East Asia.