Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[martiko]

you awaken are not us any more in 1941 but 2014.
The France is by military means the most independent and most powerful country of Europe.
France does not have vital need of Russian gas; France as Americans has troops in its main points of supply and it is not the case of Germany.
Therefore France is independent of Russia but Russia is partly dependent on France.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Crimea now it is autonomous and I think in the future should be independent.
And Romania,Ukraine,Turkey,Bulgaria,Crimea,Georgia should vote that no military ships of either NATO or Russia should be allowed in Black Sea.
If NATO and Russia want to fight,they can fight,but not in Black Sea.
I do not really care about "geo strategic" interests of US and other NATO large powers or Russia in Black Sea.UK,US,France,Russia,US have no rights to Black Sea.
They should get their military ships out of there and stop putting people to fight between them.
Is true that Russia have some part of Black Sea side,but Black Sea should be used only for tourism,fishing etc and not for fighting,which will lead to massive pollution in the area and would disturb the lives of most people here,which are living peacefully.
The high powers leaders are pure idiots with no respect for nature and life of ordinary people.
Bulgarians,Romanians,Ukrainians,Russians,Tatars,Goths,Turks,Greeks and other nations were living here very peacefully.Suddenly,Ukrainians started to fight.
Why?
Russia on one side and US and EU agitators on the other side having interests in the region,enraged these people between them,they made bloodshed between brothers,carrying only about their "geo strategic interests" . Both US/NATO and Russia want Crimea under their dark wings.Why?
To deploy military ships in the region (For US/NATO)/keep their existing war ships in the region (Russia).
Idiots.
I am pretty sure average citizen of Russia that lives near Black Sea side do not want either Russia war ships deployed in the region.

 

[Ike]

Yes it is a problem but way behind poverty and foreign troops on their soil, which you failed to address with your self proclamed geopolitical expertise.

No it isn't because that was the problem that initiated those two you mentioned.
Ukraine was not poor, but now it is more than it was 6 months ago. Even if it gets out of this charade, it will take it a year or two just to get back where it was in 2013. Was a civil war worth it? Is Yanaukovich's decision to postpone joining some Trading organization that bad? If it really was, then people of Ukraine would have rewarded him for that next year on regular elections. Civil war is way worse option than waiting another year to see if he had showed up good enough to the mandate given by the people.

Your "objectivism" is well known on Eupedia on this thread and any thread about Albanians. Looks like degrading ethnicities that you don't like is your hobby.

Lies. What ethnicities have I degraded and how?
In fact this one post I've made on one thread concerning Albanians just 4 days ago was about how nice it is to see them Serbs and Albanians finally finding the mutual language, and posted the video about the intermarriage:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ian-Continuity?p=427326&viewfull=1#post427326

You can clearly see both Albanian and Serbian flag together in the video.

 

[Ike]

I guess once again, you are wrong. Combat 18 has tons of foreign money flowing in, and is becoming quite powerful. Did you even read one of my last posts? I guess you didn't. Here is is below:

I've read it. I've been to Serbia. I know about all those groups. I'm currently living in Serbia, and I have to know about problematic groups that could beat me up, just because they don't like my ethnicity or clothing. And I'm telling you that you don't know what you're talking about, and you don't know much about nacism and it's history in Yugoslavia.


Disregarding that, please present why would any Nazis from Balkans be the subject of conversation at this moment? What have they done lately (in last 2 years for example) to provoke your reaction? I've heard they've broken some window last year in Vojvodina, though....

 

[Aberdeen]

Apparently, Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness. American Secretary of State John Kerry, in talking about events in Crimea, said:

"It is not appropriate to invade a country, and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not 21st-century, G-8, major nation behaviour."

 

[LeBrok]

Apparently, Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness. American Secretary of State John Kerry, in talking about events in Crimea, said:

"It is not appropriate to invade a country, and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not 21st-century, G-8, major nation behaviour."

I think Obama is much better in wording, to make sure what he says can't backfire.

Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness

I'm sure you don't mean all Americans.

 

[LeBrok]

No it isn't because that was the problem that initiated those two you mentioned.
Ukraine was not poor, but now it is more than it was 6 months ago. Even if it gets out of this charade, it will take it a year or two just to get back where it was in 2013. Was a civil war worth it? Is Yanaukovich's decision to postpone joining some Trading organization that bad? If it really was, then people of Ukraine would have rewarded him for that next year on regular elections. Civil war is way worse option than waiting another year to see if he had showed up good enough to the mandate given by the people.

As usually you're mixing causes with effects. History shows again and again, either in Ukraine, Serbia, France, Russia or Germany, or whereever, that ultra nationalism or communism, rise in age of poverty and recession. Also most revolts and revolutions happen during times of poverty. How can you say then that nazism in Ukraine caused poverty? Poverty is alway the cause of extremist movements, and vice versa in times of plenty all politics gravitates into the middle of the spectrum and tolerance.
This is in line with human psychology. In distress we tend to chose more drastic and extreme methods to achieve goals or just to survive. In peace we are more open, generous, caring and tolerant.
There is no secret how it works, You are just lost in your understanding.

Lies. What ethnicities have I degraded and how?
In fact this one post I've made on one thread concerning Albanians just 4 days ago was about how nice it is to see them Serbs and Albanians finally finding the mutual language, and posted the video about the intermarriage:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ian-Continuity?p=427326&viewfull=1#post427326

You can clearly see both Albanian and Serbian flag together in the video.

It is great Ike, I'm happy you showed a human face, you are not totally bad.

 

[LeBrok]

Crimea now it is autonomous and I think in the future should be independent.
And Romania,Ukraine,Turkey,Bulgaria,Crimea,Georgia should vote that no military ships of either NATO or Russia should be allowed in Black Sea.
If NATO and Russia want to fight,they can fight,but not in Black Sea.
I do not really care about "geo strategic" interests of US and other NATO large powers or Russia in Black Sea.UK,US,France,Russia,US have no rights to Black Sea.
They should get their military ships out of there and stop putting people to fight between them.
Is true that Russia have some part of Black Sea side,but Black Sea should be used only for tourism,fishing etc and not for fighting,which will lead to massive pollution in the area and would disturb the lives of most people here,which are living peacefully.

I'm for it.

The high powers leaders are pure idiots with no respect for nature and life of ordinary people.
Bulgarians,Romanians,Ukrainians,Russians,Tatars,Goths,Turks,Greeks and other nations were living here very peacefully.Suddenly,Ukrainians started to fight.
Why?

It is nothing unusual for a new country to go through deep political crisis. In case of Ukraine two strong blocks, one pro Russia and one is pro EU. Ukraine and Russia are brand new democracies too and still lost in democratic ways. On top of it, Russia is creating a big problem forcing Ukraine to chose between Russia and EU. Actually Putin is forcing Ukraine to chose Russia obviously. In it's old imperial politics Putin with its "court" can't let a new idea to their heads, that it would be possible for Ukraine to be pro Russian and pro EU at the same time. They should also think in line of joining EU and Nato in future. Alone they are not in position to counterbalance huge forces of fast growing Asia.

Russia on one side and US and EU agitators on the other side having interests in the region,enraged these people between them,they made bloodshed between brothers,carrying only about their "geo strategic interests"

Give some more credit to Ukrainians. Alone they are capable enough of creating big political and economical mess. You don't need external agitators to start internal conflicts. It is just a big Ukrainian mess, their country with dual personality, multiethnic, long history of foreign dominance, and very fresh democracy. We should cut them some slack.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Russia, North Korea, Iran, Taliban, Syria, Venezuela and Al Qaeda (and Ike) are the only countries and organizations having problem with the West. You are in great company!

Majority of countries in the world has a problem with your bully elephant America and their small fry like UK or Canada, they are just afraid to say so... while Russia don't afraid. Be careful, the elephant will not be always around

And Taliban is anglo-saxon "invention", are not they? Anglo-Saxons support fundamentalist fanatics without hesitation if it is in their interest. Your lapdog-ally Saudi Arabia the world's biggest sponsor of terrorism ever, Saudis still practice chopping off heads and medival barbarity inside the country. Why you hypocrites always silent about them?

Can't you realize that methods of Tzars and Soviet Union don't work anymore in modern world? You made all the countries around you into your enemies, except Belarus, Good Job, congratulations!

We have a lot of friends around the globe, from Cuba & Venezuela to Nicaragua and Vietnam. There is a huge request in the world to resist "western importers of democracy". The world is already fed up with the Anglo-Saxons.

Soviet Union would not chew snots and watch how nazis with western support assault Kiev, it would have sent tanks to meet them. While Russia's dumb democracy just protests and looking for a compromise...

 

[LeBrok]

Majority of countries in the world has a problem with your bully elephant America and their small fry like UK or Canada, they are just afraid to say so... while Russia don't afraid. Be careful, the elephant will not be always around

And Russia will be?
I like your analogy though. You see elephant won't step on small creatures like mice. He is a very gentle and wise. Bear on the other hand will attack and eat everything.

And Taliban is anglo-saxon "invention", are not they? Anglo-Saxons support fundamentalist fanatics without hesitation if it is in their interest. Your lapdog-ally Saudi Arabia the world's biggest sponsor of terrorism ever, Saudis still practice chopping off heads and medival barbarity inside the country. Why you hypocrites always silent about them?

Who is silent on them? There are documentaries, books, movies and even news from time to time on this subject.

We have a lot of friends around the globe, from Cuba & Venezuela to Nicaragua and Vietnam. There is a huge request in the world to resist "western importers of democracy". The world is already fed up with the Anglo-Saxons.

All "successful" countries with failed economies lol. That's right it is your club, enjoy.
It is interesting that they were friends of Soviet Union since communist took power in these countries. Doesn't make it a pattern? If you want to fail and be poor become a friend of Russia.

Soviet Union would not chew snots and watch how nazis with western support assault Kiev, it would have sent tanks to meet them. While Russia's dumb democracy just protests and looking for a compromise...

Yes, we are aware of your real attitude, the bear's way. And you wonder why most countries are afraid to have Russia as a friend. Thanks for opening up.

 

[Aberdeen]

I don't like Putin the strong man and I think Russia is dangerous. But the reality is that Russia has a lot more reason to be in Crimea than America has to be in Iraq. Prior to the 20th century, when was Crimea ever a part of the Ukraine?

 

[Ike]

As usually you're mixing causes with effects. History shows again and again, either in Ukraine, Serbia, France, Russia or Germany, or whereever, that ultra nationalism or communism, rise in age of poverty and recession. Also most revolts and revolutions happen during times of poverty. How can you say then that nazism in Ukraine caused poverty?

Ukraine was not poor, it is in fact richer than ever before. If you look how Ukrainians lived 30, 60 or 90 years ago, the trend is obvious, the quality of living is better. There are two problems, though:

1. They are not rich enough as they wanna be. OK, they elected Yanaukovich, he didn't fulfill his promises about life standards, he'll get out of the president room first time possible. It's not like he signed an alliance with the Devil or he's trying to sell Ukrainian land as a nuclear waste dump, so that swift reaction should be taken. You can't go around raising chaos, burning city and terrorizing people, unless you have pretty good reason for it. Just not liking the current president is simply not an excuse. Next, also had parliamentary elections in 2012 for which we have results:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ukr_elections_2012_onemandate_okruhs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png

So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.



2. People were demonstrating against various problems. If nazis didn't show up to spice up the things the chaos probably wouldn't broke up. Right at the moment when violence started I was excepting the Western countries to speak up against it. It didn't happen. They went on backing it up. Once nationalistic and nazi forces got aware that their actions are greeted from the West they got courage to act more freely, and started endangering people's freedom.

As a result, we have Ukraine "at stop" for months, which means it's losing money. We have the direct damage that protesters have done, which will be estimated in months to come. We also have an extra money that state is paying to the police to try to keep law and order in Ukraine. If all that didn't happen, we'd have Ukraine with some amount of money and low standard voting for Klitschko at the end of the year. This way we could have Ukraine with (same amount of money - billions of $), even lower standard, ruined city, lots of dead and again Klitschko in power.... maybe ... if riots end by then, and if whole country doesn't fall apart.

 

[martiko]

I don't like Putin the strong man and I think Russia is dangerous. But the reality is that Russia has a lot more reason to be in Crimea than America has to be in Iraq. Prior to the 20th century, when was Crimea ever a part of the Ukraine?

everybody knows that Russia is born in Crimea, and we basques demand France Spain, Germany and England and we have of better reason than you according to what you write in rubric on basques.
We are going to ask your friend Putin to use to come in Germany
I answer absurd by contradiction, so we speak the same nationalist and bellicose language

 

[martiko]

Ukraine was not poor, it is in fact richer than ever before. If you look how Ukrainians lived 30, 60 or 90 years ago, the trend is obvious, the quality of living is better. There are two problems, though:

1. They are not rich enough as they wanna be. OK, they elected Yanaukovich, he didn't fulfill his promises about life standards, he'll get out of the president room first time possible. It's not like he signed an alliance with the Devil or he's trying to sell Ukrainian land as a nuclear waste dump, so that swift reaction should be taken. You can't go around raising chaos, burning city and terrorizing people, unless you have pretty good reason for it. Just not liking the current president is simply not an excuse. Next, also had parliamentary elections in 2012 for which we have results:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ukr_elections_2012_onemandate_okruhs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png

So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.



2. People were demonstrating against various problems. If nazis didn't show up to spice up the things the chaos probably wouldn't broke up. Right at the moment when violence started I was excepting the Western countries to speak up against it. It didn't happen. They went on backing it up. Once nationalistic and nazi forces got aware that their actions are greeted from the West they got courage to act more freely, and started endangering people's freedom.

As a result, we have Ukraine "at stop" for months, which means it's losing money. We have the direct damage that protesters have done, which will be estimated in months to come. We also have an extra money that state is paying to the police to try to keep law and order in Ukraine. If all that didn't happen, we'd have Ukraine with some amount of money and low standard voting for Klitschko at the end of the year. This way we could have Ukraine with (same amount of money - billions of $), even lower standard, ruined city, lots of dead and again Klitschko in power.... maybe ... if riots end by then, and if whole country doesn't fall apart.

You have all qualities of delimited people and it is not us but you who are a nationalist and can be fachiste, according to what I can read of what you write, but you do not cope; I would not have liked to know you in 1940
in Russia a demonstration counters war: 400 demonstrators =400 muscular arrests.

 

[LeBrok]

I don't like Putin the strong man and I think Russia is dangerous. But the reality is that Russia has a lot more reason to be in Crimea than America has to be in Iraq. Prior to the 20th century, when was Crimea ever a part of the Ukraine?

Sure, if Russia didn't give Crimea to Ukraine we wouldn't have the Crimea problem now. But somehow they gave it away. Now, after some reflection, Russia takes it back. I would say it is not right.

There is also problem with Ukraine. Till 1991 it never existed as an independent country. So how do we assign any territory to a country which never existed? I guess, demographics of ethnicities are playing a role here. Overall it was by communist party decret of Soviet Union that gave Ukraine today's shape. If Soviet leaders could predict current situation in advance, they wouldn't have been as generous as they were creating Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Ukraine would be much smaller and definitely without Crimea.

 

[Aberdeen]

everybody knows that Russia is born in Crimea, and we basques demand France Spain, Germany and England and we have of better reason than you according to what you write in rubric on basques.
We are going to ask your friend Putin to use to come in Germany
I answer absurd by contradiction, so we speak the same nationalist and bellicose language

I've never commented on the Basques, other than to wonder whether they were in Iberia during the Neolithic and whether they may have brought Y haplotype R1b with them, rather than acquiring it later. And I'm certainly no friend of Putin - I think the Ukraine would be better off with the west, but I also think that Ukrainians need to be more realistic and understand the Russian point of view better if they to escape from the bear's clutches. So, as usual, your comments make no sense to me.

 

[LeBrok]

Ukraine was not poor, it is in fact richer than ever before. If you look how Ukrainians lived 30, 60 or 90 years ago, the trend is obvious, the quality of living is better. There are two problems, though:

Yes, of course we are talking about relative poverty. Here in context of european states GDP in general or per capita, which make Ukraine poor in comparison with others.

1. They are not rich enough as they wanna be. OK, they elected Yanaukovich, he didn't fulfill his promises about life standards, he'll get out of the president room first time possible. It's not like he signed an alliance with the Devil or he's trying to sell Ukrainian land as a nuclear waste dump, so that swift reaction should be taken. You can't go around raising chaos, burning city and terrorizing people, unless you have pretty good reason for it. Just not liking the current president is simply not an excuse. Next, also had parliamentary elections in 2012 for which we have results:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ukr_elections_2012_onemandate_okruhs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png
So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.

I never said or I don't remember any person here who said that protesters were right abolishing government. I said people were angry and frustrated and demanded the change. Is it for good or worse, only future will tell.
Personally I believe that Ukraine will be much better with EU than Russia, if they can't be friends with both.

So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.

Let's leave it to Ukrainians. Yuu are not suggesting that we should send Russian troops every time Ukrainians or anyone else abolish their government?

2. People were demonstrating against various problems. If nazis didn't show up to spice up the things the chaos probably wouldn't broke up. Right at the moment when violence started I was excepting the Western countries to speak up against it. It didn't happen. They went on backing it up. Once nationalistic and nazi forces got aware that their actions are greeted from the West they got courage to act more freely, and started endangering people's freedom.

And when I wanted to compliment you on a nice analitical post you brought nazies again to the equation. You couldn't resist, could you?

As a result, we have Ukraine "at stop" for months, which means it's losing money. We have the direct damage that protesters have done, which will be estimated in months to come. We also have an extra money that state is paying to the police to try to keep law and order in Ukraine. If all that didn't happen, we'd have Ukraine with some amount of money and low standard voting for Klitschko at the end of the year. This way we could have Ukraine with (same amount of money - billions of $), even lower standard, ruined city, lots of dead and again Klitschko in power.... maybe ... if riots end by then, and if whole country doesn't fall apart.

With every political unrest economy is being neglected. However how it is going to end who knows. I'm suspecting a very difficult politically and economically next 20 years for Ukraine. Afterall it is a very young country in making. It takes time.
If somehow pro EU government takes effect and deep economic reforms happen, their economy can double in 10 years. They have big market of 50 million well educated people. All they need is solid economic system to unleash their potential. Why not to repeat what Ireland did in last 30 years? It is as easy as to copy something. Nothing new needs to be invented.

 

[Aberdeen]

Sure, if Russia didn't give Crimea to Ukraine we wouldn't have the Crimea problem now. But somehow they gave it away. Now, after some reflection, Russia takes it back. I would say it is not right.

There is also problem with Ukraine. Till 1991 it never existed as an independent country. So how do we assign any territory to a country which never existed? I guess, demographics of ethnicities are playing a role here. Overall it was by communist party decret of Soviet Union that gave Ukraine today's shape. If Soviet leaders could predict current situation in advance, they wouldn't have been as generous as they were creating Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Ukraine would be much smaller and definitely without Crimea.

That's all true, but I doubt that Russians think it's relevant. When they look at a map of the Ukraine, they see NATO tanks being able to carry out war maneuvers in the eastern part, right underneath the belly of central Russia. And they expect that to happen as soon as the Ukraine joins NATO because Russians are paranoid by nature and because many of them can tell your horrible but sometimes true stories about how their grandparents died in WWII. And Russia will prevent the possibility of NATO tanks gathering on the plains south of Russia by whatever means possible, either by taking back that territory or keeping the Ukraine as a Russian client state. So, what do the people of western Ukraine want? To join the west, which seems like the wise choice. But Russia won't let that happen as long as the Ukraine extends as far east as it does today. And Russia will never agree to be shut out of the Black Sea. So, how does the Ukraine escape? By letting the people of eastern Ukraine go, through a referendum or whatever - the majority of the people in eastern Ukraine speak Russian anyway, and if they're forced to choose between being governed by a nationalistic Ukrainian regime and rejoining Russia, they probably will choose Russia, whether or not other people think that choice makes sense. The Ukrainians should forget about how they think things should be and think about what's possible, or there's a danger that the Russian bear will devour all of the Ukraine. And what will the EU and NATO do about that? Realistically, they will wag their fingers and say "Naughty Russian bear - you shouldn't have killed and eaten the Ukraine. We will have economic sanctions against you. But please don't shut off the flow of natural gas. We might have another cold winter next year."

 

[Ike]

I never said or I don't remember any person here who said that protesters were right abolishing government. I said people were angry and frustrated and demanded the change. Is it for good or worse, only future will tell. Personally I believe that Ukraine will be much better with EU than Russia, if they can't be friends with both.

I believe it's a false dilemma for them. They can't be better with anyone, if they have foes behind their back. They should not make enemies with either EU or Russia, and they should stay independent.

Let's leave it to Ukrainians. Yuu are not suggesting that we should send Russian troops every time Ukrainians or anyone else abolish their government?

No, I suggest we make it clear to them that we don't and we won't recognize the new forced government. Or at least that's what we should have done. Now it's too late.

If Canada wants to send their troops to reestablish overthrown government and make sure new elections are proper it's fine with me. I just think it's absurd to do it next to Russian who are already there on the borders, just as I would think it would be absurd to send Russian troops to Mexico, Somalia or Spain if riots happened there.

And when I wanted to compliment you on a nice analitical post you brought nazies again to the equation. You couldn't resist, could you?

Yeah, they killed a lot of people here. We recognize them from very far, and we know how they spread. It's interesting that EU governments and US also didn't see it as a problem in Yugoslav republics, when nationalistic governments were established under the pretense of democracy. Next thing we saw was total war. I'm wondering how serious does the threat have to be, so that they'd see it.

If somehow pro EU government takes effect and deep economic reforms happen, their economy can double in 10 years. They have big market of 50 million well educated people. All they need is solid economic system to unleash their potential. Why not to repeat what Ireland did in last 30 years? It is as easy as to copy something. Nothing new needs to be invented.

Well, if it was so easy lots of other countries would have fallowed that example, but sadly it's very hard to do. I don't see Ukraine fallowing that example within EU or Russia. They are way deep down in problems which won't be solved withing one generation from my point of view.

 

[Ike]

That's all true, but I doubt that Russians think it's relevant. When they look at a map of the Ukraine, they see NATO tanks being able to carry out war maneuvers in the eastern part, right underneath the belly of central Russia. And they expect that to happen as soon as the Ukraine joins NATO because Russians are paranoid by nature and because many of them can tell your horrible but sometimes true stories about how their grandparents died in WWII. And Russia will prevent the possibility of NATO tanks gathering on the plains south of Russia by whatever means possible, either by taking back that territory or keeping the Ukraine as a Russian client state.

In the light of articles like these, I can't really say that I blame Russians for being paranoid:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...est-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

NATO surely has to back off and give 'em some space. When Russians think like this, it wouldn't even surprise me if they take the whole Ukraine back again:
"Baranez, a retired colonel who was the Defense Ministry's spokesman under former Russian President Boris Yeltsin, asks why Russia should even consider joint maneuvers after being deceived by the West. NATO, he writes, "has pushed its way right up to our national borders with its guns.""