Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Aberdeen]

and St. Petersburg, Vladivostok, Nizhny Novgorod, Novocibirsk ....... are farthest from Kiev but Paris and Berlin are closer.

Actually, Berlin is over 1800 kilometres from Moscow, with two countries in between, and Paris is even further away. You seem to have a very vague notion of geography.

Consider how the Americans would react if one of their states became independent and was thinking of making a treaty with Russia, which could put Russian military personnel within 750 kilometres of Washington. The Americans would freak out, and nobody would blame them for it. So perhaps we should be able to understand why Russia is doing what it's doing right now. Most of us think it's a bad thing mostly because we don't like Putin the strong man, we think Russia could easily slide back into dictatorship, and we think that the Ukrainians would be better off with a western European style economy, rather than the Russian model, which I think could be most accurately described as 'theft from the people by whichever group of oligarchs are currently in favour with the government". However, if we look at things from the viewpoint of military paranoia, Russian behaviour toward the Ukraine is quite understandable.

 

[Coolboygcp]

and St. Petersburg, Vladivostok, Nizhny Novgorod, Novocibirsk ....... are farthest from Kiev but Paris and Berlin are closer.

Paris is 2,417.9 kilometres from Kiev; about a 23 hours 16 minutes trip. Berlin is 1,337.4 kilometres from Kiev; about a 14 hours 37 minutes trip. Saint Petersburg is 1,217.2 kilometres away from Kiev, about a 15 hour trip. Krakow, Poland is 878 kilometres from Kiev, about a 10 hours 1 minute trip. Moscow is 852.5 kilometres away from Kiev, about a 10 hours 14 minutes trip. Vilnius, Lithuania is 723.9 kilometres from Kiev, about a 9 hours 6 minutes trip.

Thus, Vilnius, Lithuania is closer to Kiev than any major Russian city!

 

[Coolboygcp]

Look at a map. Kiev is only about 750 kilometres from Moscow. Even if the U.S. and NATO aren't keen to get the Ukraine into NATO in order to hold military exercises that close to Moscow, the Russians probably believe that they are.

Actually, Berlin is over 1800 kilometres from Moscow, with two countries in between, and Paris is even further away. You seem to have a very vague notion of geography.

Consider how the Americans would react if one of their states became independent and was thinking of making a treaty with Russia, which could put Russian military personnel within 750 kilometres of Washington. The Americans would freak out, and nobody would blame them for it. So perhaps we should be able to understand why Russia is doing what it's doing right now. Most of us think it's a bad thing mostly because we don't like Putin the strong man, we think Russia could easily slide back into dictatorship, and we think that the Ukrainians would be better off with a western European style economy, rather than the Russian model, which I think could be most accurately described as 'theft from the people by whichever group of oligarchs are currently in favour with the government". However, if we look at things from the viewpoint of military paranoia, Russian behaviour toward the Ukraine is quite understandable.

You are incorrect, once again.

Read the post above this one.

Also, is appears you are the one with "a vague notion of geography." :grin:

 

[Coolboygcp]

Whatever.

Exactly. I see you know some history, and you known that Yugoslavia was the brink of the war with Soviets.

Oh, tons of countries were on the brink of war with the Soviets. Yugoslavia was very close to The Soviet Union, until the Tito-Stalin Split. Yes, I do know some history. I never said that Yugoslavia was biased towards Russia; but from the content of your posts, it appears that you are heavily biased towards Russia.

Because formally it is still in existence. It is just being occupied and divided just like during WW2.
Whether it was a horrible place or not, is not up to you to say, and is of no importance. It is not a reason to act lawlessly and neglect it's existence.

It is not being occupied and divided. Yugoslavia is gone and dead. The people of Yugoslavia dissolved Yugoslavia, and created their own, independent nations. This was over 22 years ago! Now the majority of former Yugoslav are free, and members of the EU. Which is in the best interests of those countries.

Hm... that's bad for EU. Balkan people in EU means EU is going down big time.

How is it bad for EU? The EU will help Serbia to develop and grow, and eventually it's GDP will rise, and will become a wealthy country. It just takes time and money, but it is worth it in the end. Look at Poland, as LeBrok as noted, their GDP has risen incredibly. This will happen in Serbia once it joins the EU, and is in the EU for some years.

"Balkan people in EU means EU is going down big time." What?

Have you heard of Greece, it has been in the EU and it's predecessors for many decades, and for most of it's membership; it has been a good member of the EU. It's economy was very good for a very long time, but due to many factors (corruption at the national level, banks giving out loans and mortgages to freely, etc), it's economy is not as good as before. But it is recovering a lot, and I would say within 5-10 years, it's economy will be good.

Greece is in The Balkans, and the EU has not gone down yet, even though they have been in the EU for many years. The EU will never go down. The EU is here to stay. The unity of Europe is here to stay. There are naysayers, such as yourself, who always say that the EU will collapse, the EU will nit be in existence next year, the EU will collapse, etc. But it has not happened, and the EU is quite strong. The EU's economy is recovering, and in many member states it is quite good. (Luxembourg for example.)

In due time, the entirety of The Balkans (excluding FYROM), will be in the EU. And this will be good for the EU, and fir the Balkan countries.

I have a question, do you want your country, Serbia, to join the EU? And if you don't want Serbia to join the EU, why do you not want them to join?

 

[Zemra]

This has gone quite a few pages, so I didn't read them all. Can't people of Crimea decide for themselves? I've gotten the perception they want to stay in Ukraine, but Russia is twisting the news, like with that actress who pretended to be a Kyiv resident, a soldier's mother, Odessa resident etc. just to make it look Crimea needs help.

 

[Coolboygcp]

This has gone quite a few pages, so I didn't read them all. Can't people of Crimea decide for themselves? I've gotten the perception they want to stay in Ukraine, but Russia is twisting the news, like with that actress who pretended to be a Kyiv resident, a soldier's mother, Odessa resident etc. just to make it look Crimea needs help.

You are rightm they should be able to decide for themselves.

However, the only way for this to happen will be for the Russians to allow a legal, legitimate referendum on the future status of Crimea. This will probably not happen. Russia needs to leave Crimea, and then the Ukrainians should allow a referendum in Crimea to take place, and this referendum should be monitored by the EU, the OSCE, and the UN.

I have watched different international news channels (BBC, Al Jazeera, etc), and from the people that they have on there, it seems most people do want to stay in Crimea. Though, there are some that want to join Russia, these are probably in the minority.

I do not see how Crimean people's rights were being taken away and marginalised, and the Russians say. They were an autonomous region of Ukraine, they had their own parliament, and their own government. As soon as the Russians invaded, they deposed the legally elected government and parliament, and put their own politicians into power.

I do agree with you, Russia is twisting the news regarding this crisis. They call the new Ukrianian government neo-nazis and fascists, and say that the Crimean people want to be "liberated", and become part of the "free, democratic" nation of Russia. On the English version of Russia Today (the Russian propaganda news channel), two anchors resigned because they had to lie, and spread propaganda about the situation in the Ukraine and Crimea.

Some are trying to compare Crimea to Catalonia, but it is quite different. The people of Catalonia genuinely want to be independent. The people of Crimea mostly do not want to be independent.

Also, since you are Albanian, I have a question. Do you want your country to join the EU? Do yo think it would be good or bad for your country to join the EU?

 

[Coolboygcp]

Ukraine is in crisis and no one is willing to implement the Budapest Memorandum:
"
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments."


It looks like GB, USA and RF do not care about the treaty they singled in 1994.

The UN or the OSCE should either fine, reprimand or force the parties involved to obey the conditions of this treaty. No one is talking about this treaty on the news, and the governments involved have not said what they intend to do to honour the treaty.

The US is not doing much. They are just going to wag their finger at Russia and say "Russia, why are you being so bad, could you please leave Ukraine? If you don't we have to do sanctions against you."

And Russia doesn't care, and they'd only care if The West actually did something about. Even if they threatened, and seriously threatened to do something serious; Russia would probably leave. Yes Russia is a bear, but The West is more like a bunch of hunters, which can shoot the bear.

(Also, by that analogy, I am not saying The West is bad, The West is good, and I only used that analogy regarding Russia, not other countries.)

 

[Zemra]

Also, since you are Albanian, I have a question. Do you want your country to join the EU? Do yo think it would be good or bad for your country to join the EU?

Off-topic but I'll try to answer. I've written and rewritten this paragraph several times trying to find the right words hoping I won't jump around with unconnected sentences. I also need to apologize for the format, I'm on a phone. Most people in Albania want to join EU, because they believe EU will provide for them better than the government of Albania can, which is something I agree with. Albania's desire to join EU has mostly to do with the intentions of people to immigrate into other EU countries, which I feel it's going to be problematic for the other countries. There is already a large Albanian diaspora, which already is problematic. EU experience might be good for Albania, but maybe not Albania for EU (see Romania and Bulgaria as a precedent). Assuming Albania joins EU, the infrastructure will get better, the living conditions will get better for the people, but I really doubt Albania's capacity to give to EU. Main exports so far are clothes, textiles. The main plan for developing the economy so far has been developing 'tourism' following the Greek model, which speaks for itself. This model was not chosen to be followed because it's good, but because it's European. There are better economic models Albania can try to imitate, but it's choosing the ones that are European simply because it wants to be part of the European sphere. Which is why I think Albania is not ready. One day maybe yes, but not now. Right now it has an identity problem. I believe that whatever good it will come to Albania from EU if it joins now, it will be temporary. But it will be disastrous for Albania to stay outside EU. If Albania cuts ties with EU, everything achieved since the fall of Communism will be null.

 

[Ike]

Oh, tons of countries were on the brink of war with the Soviets. Yugoslavia was very close to The Soviet Union, until the Tito-Stalin Split. Yes, I do know some history. I never said that Yugoslavia was biased towards Russia; but from the content of your posts, it appears that you are heavily biased towards Russia.

LoL, it's easy to talk like that now. It wasn't so easy in 1940-ies.

Where did you get that I'm heavily biased towards Russia? Have I said anything nice about them ? So, just because I'm not absolutely against Russians, means that I'm heavily biased towards them?
Tell me one another thing. Why is NATO conducting war drills very near Russian borders right now?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/10/us-ukraine-crisis-exercises-idUSBREA291U220140310

It is not being occupied and divided. Yugoslavia is gone and dead. The people of Yugoslavia dissolved Yugoslavia, and created their own, independent nations. This was over 22 years ago! Now the majority of former Yugoslav are free, and members of the EU. Which is in the best interests of those countries.

You are aware that all those countries are not legitimate and are illegal?
Yes exactly, the people did, and republics. Go ask Badinter something about it. He has some very contradicting war-starting explanations...

How is it bad for EU? The EU will help Serbia to develop and grow, and eventually it's GDP will rise, and will become a wealthy country. It just takes time and money, but it is worth it in the end. Look at Poland, as LeBrok as noted, their GDP has risen incredibly. This will happen in Serbia once it joins the EU, and is in the EU for some years.

Why do you think I care about GDP? We already had similar offers from Hitler.

What?

Have you heard of Greece, it has been in the EU and it's predecessors for many decades, and for most of it's membership; it has been a good member of the EU. It's economy was very good for a very long time, but due to many factors (corruption at the national level, banks giving out loans and mortgages to freely, etc), it's economy is not as good as before. But it is recovering a lot, and I would say within 5-10 years, it's economy will be good.

Greece is in The Balkans, and the EU has not gone down yet, even though they have been in the EU for many years. The EU will never go down. The EU is here to stay. The unity of Europe is here to stay. There are naysayers, such as yourself, who always say that the EU will collapse, the EU will nit be in existence next year, the EU will collapse, etc. But it has not happened, and the EU is quite strong. The EU's economy is recovering, and in many member states it is quite good. (Luxembourg for example.)

In due time, the entirety of The Balkans (excluding FYROM), will be in the EU. And this will be good for the EU, and fir the Balkan countries.

People of EU are not even aware what awaits them now I they want anything good for EU, they should not let us in. Getting Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia was also a mistake. Only Slovenia is the decent one. All you can expect from the rest of us is human trafficking, drug cartels, blood feuds and numerous social problems.

I have a question, do you want your country, Serbia, to join the EU? And if you don't want Serbia to join the EU, why do you not want them to join?

Because they were heavily involved in bringing nazi dictator regimes in all Yugoslavian republics and starting the war. A lot of armaments used in the last Civil war also came directly from central Europe, while they were pretending that they want peace here Similar thing's happening in Ukraine now.

 

[Luan]

Whatever.

Exactly. I see you know some history, and you known that Yugoslavia was the brink of the war with Soviets.



Because formally it is still in existence. It is just being occupied and divided just like during WW2.
Whether it was a horrible place or not, is not up to you to say, and is of no importance. It is not a reason to act lawlessly and neglect it's existence.


Hm... that's bad for EU. Balkan people in EU means EU is going down big time.

Verry dangerous mindset you have. And Serbs seems to have it. This is why kosova, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovania can't trust Serbia. Especially Albanians.

 

[oriental]

Consider how the Americans would react if one of their states became independent and was thinking of making a treaty with Russia, which could put Russian military personnel within 750 kilometres of Washington. The Americans would freak out, and nobody would blame them for it..

It was the Cuban Missile Crisis which had the World on edge with President Kennedy and Kruschev on either ends. I always wondered about how Kruschev was replaced. It could be the giving away of Crimea to Ukraine. banging his shoe on the podium at the UN and this missile crisis that could have resulted in breznev taking over. Kruschev and Brezhnev were both in either Stalingrad or Karkov fighting the germans. Kruschev was a Colonel while Brezhnev might have been a Major or Captain.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=kruschev+and+brezhnev+photo&tbm=isch&imgil=tVxehYEyvkDVqM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQ8xmjnoLQh47f2MRm9sKcZlPJYcMxFQR-htaioqGaBjGUjN5KM%253B864%253B1408%253BOrncfCrUjWFAcM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fki-media.blogspot.com%25252F2010%25252F08%25252Fmy-young-and-beautiful-monique-earned.html&source=iu&usg=__tgHr46F4Mcp2VYz4o5uZRDmeuVU%3D&sa=X&ei=nAIiU9PyF8b7oATR_oAQ&ved=0CCwQ9QEwAA&biw=1280&bih=878#facrc=_&imgrc=tVxehYEyvkDVqM%253A%3BOrncfCrUjWFAcM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F1.bp.blogspot.com%252F_hqgVFA7RYE4%252FTFkuKZLQC1I%252FAAAAAAAADh4%252FeTquPRA5Wpo%252Fs1600%252FKhruschev%252Band%252BBrezhnev.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fki-media.blogspot.com%252F2010%252F08%252Fmy-young-and-beautiful-monique-earned.html%3B864%3B1408

I believe there is also a Treaty between Russia and EU when East Germany was allowed to join West Germany about the EU not poaching countries near the Russian border. I believe EU is now poaching near the Russian border.

 

[Aberdeen]

It was the Cuban Missile Crisis which had the World on edge with President Kennedy and Kruschev on either ends. I always wondered about how Kruschev was replaced. It could be the giving away of Crimea to Ukraine. banging his shoe on the podium at the UN and this missile crisis that could have resulted in breznev taking over. Kruschev and Brezhnev were both in either Stalingrad or Karkov fighting the germans. Kruschev was a Colonel while Brezhnev might have been a Major or Captain.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=krus...ng-and-beautiful-monique-earned.html;864;1408

I believe there is also a Treaty between Russia and EU when East Germany was allowed to join West Germany about the EU not poaching countries near the Russian border. I believe EU is now poaching near the Russian border.

Khrushchev gave southern Russia, including Crimea, to the Ukraine in 1954, so I doubt that was a direct cause of his downfall. As long as the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, that was probably only seen as a problem by Russian speakers living in the area that was given away. The miscalculation about the Cuban missile crisis probably had more to do with Khrushchev's downfall, I think. But that was about not interfering in the back yard of a superpower. And, from the Russian point of view, the EU and the U.S. are interfering in Russia's back yard, and Russia still sees itself as a superpower, no matter what the rest of the world thinks. As I said, Russia measures danger partly by how close potential enemies can gather from Moscow. That's probably why Russians considered the Baltic countries their worst enemies before the situation in the Ukraine blew up, and that's probably also why the Russians won't back down now. A failure to understand that could lead to war.

 

[oriental]

about not interfering in the back yard of a superpower. And, from the Russian point of view, the EU and the U.S. are interfering in Russia's back yard, and Russia still sees itself as a superpower, no matter what the rest of the world thinks. As I said, Russia measures danger partly by how close potential enemies can gather from Moscow. That's probably why Russians considered the Baltic countries their worst enemies before the situation in the Ukraine blew up, and that's probably also why the Russians won't back down now. A failure to understand that could lead to war.

With the nuclear capability Russia has it is a superpower militarily.

Lord Tennyson "The Charge of the Light Brigade"

...Yours is not to question why
But to do and die...

He also wrote:

...What an intricate web we weave
when we first learn to deceive...

 

[matbir]

I've watched few relations of western media and read this thread, and my conclusion is that there is big misinformation. It looks like most of people are missing the point. The big misconception is that in Ukraine there is an ethnic conflict based on identification with Ukrainian and Russian nation. The reality is that Western part of Ukraine was sovietased in much deeper then western part. It can be seen in many subjects, example: publicly used symbols, in western Ukraine statues of such criminals like Lenin in not welcomed while in eastern they are on main squares of cities. Protesters in eastern Ukraine are using Soviet flags! That is the most shocking thing that I would expect in Ukraine. The soviet flag is the symbol of oppressors who in 1930' were responsible for the biggest genocide in human history, estimated numbers of people starved to death is up to 7 million (1932-1933). But in three famines in Ukraine about 10 million people died (1921-9147). One of the most fertile countries in the world had suffered lack of food, ironic isn't it? Soviet flags for Ukrainians are like Nazi flags for Jews, and I do not expect Jews to show respect to swastika. I am really shocked how brainwashed people of eastern Ukraine are.
In post-soviet area there is nostalgia to soviet times, but do not be miss led by that, some people feel this nostalgia because they and their families ware part of oppression system - which was well paid - and others, because they remember propaganda like world but they never woke up from it.
Situation in Crimea is even more complicated. In 1940’ ethnic composition changed drastically, region was depopulated by last famine, Tatars ware deported to the east mainly to Uzbekistan. Then new Russian settlers mostly from Voronezh, Tambov, Bryansk and Rostov oblasts was settled, many of them connected to red army and soviet administration. I thing that is explaining why there are so pro-Russian feelings there.
Rising from the coffin soviet ideology is the real threat for Europe, not some imaginary “Ukrainian fascist” who are the product of soviet propaganda. I wonder if any Russian who is talking about fascism in Ukraine has read any book about fascism.
It is not hard to find similarities between Soviet policy in 30’ and 40’ and today’s Russian policy toward Ukraine. Today Putin is “saving” Russian speaking minority in Ukraine – 17.09.1939 Stalin attacked Poland to “protect” Ukrainians and Byelorussians. Ukrainian patriots are called fascist and terrorists by Putin – Polish resistance forces who fought in anti-communist uprising (1944-47) ware called fascist and terrorists by soviet propaganda.
Last time when Europe allowed the balance of forces to be changed in its area it led to WWII. What is going on today? Crimea has enormous strategic value, it have military bases, natural resources, economically and military strategic localization. I found it very childish to talk about who “deserves” to govern the Crimea. In my opinion this peninsula should stay as autonomic republic in Ukraine, because it has land connection and strategic meaning to Ukraine. Keep in mind that Last time Germany took Austria which was not opposing, then took parts of Czechoslovakia to unite and protect Germans. What are Putin’s plans? I hope that WWIII is not among them.

 

[Sile]

The difference on whether to be independent or being "annexed" by Russia...................Independence I favour, not annexation.

but other parts of Europe are seeking indepence

venice
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604044

Scotland in mid 2014

the catalans

split of the Walloons and Flemish in Belgium

and many more

As i said, 2 different issues for Crimea

 

[Aberdeen]

According to CBC News, the chief electoral officer in Crimea has stated that 50% of the vote has been counted and that over 95% voted in favour of joining Russia. Given that the Russians were controlling this vote, I'm surprised that the percentage of the vote that was in favour of joining Russia was anything less than 120%.

 

[Goga]

Congrats to people of Crimea. I wish my people and leaders would be as brave as you!

 

[matbir]

Crimean Tatars boycotted pole. In Polish news I’ve heard that Russian residents were allowed to vote so we could expect more the 100%.

 

[ElHorsto]

I think the explanation is much simpler:: russian wages are three-fold higher than ukrainian, whereas the rest of Ukraine goes IMF.

 

[Ike]

More than that, Ukrainians will have two passports, giving them ability to balance their personal needs between Russia and EU, whenever one of them gets ahead.