Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[oriental]

My Polish friend visited his brother in Poland. His brother lives near the German border and was worried that Germans who were buying all the properties in Prussia (Western part of Poland) were talking about joining Germany as most of the area is now owned by Germans. They bought land with the high-valued Euros. There is talk that German owners feel it is part of Germany. My friend also is against Poland using the Euro as Polish products will be priced out of the market and would kill tourism. It is the rich Germans propping up Poland as they live on the western part and spend building up homes and businesses.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The difference on whether to be independent or being "annexed" by Russia...................Independence I favour, not annexation.

but other parts of Europe are seeking indepence

venice
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604044

Scotland in mid 2014

the catalans

split of the Walloons and Flemish in Belgium

and many more

As i said, 2 different issues for Crimea

Maybe Crimea should be independent, but I don't think it could survive on its own.
The whole referendum seems a farce, organised to give the Russians legitimacy.
On the other hand, what is the legitimacy of the present 'rulers' in Kiev?
They have not been elected. Yanukovitch was corrupt and abused his power, but at least, he was elected by the whole nation of Ukraine.

 

[LeBrok]

According to CBC News, the chief electoral officer in Crimea has stated that 50% of the vote has been counted and that over 95% voted in favour of joining Russia. Given that the Russians were controlling this vote, I'm surprised that the percentage of the vote that was in favour of joining Russia was anything less than 120%.

Disregarding the fact that this referendum was illegal by any standard but Putin's, the 95% numbers proves that it was also fadged. Even if most Tatars and Ukrainians stayed home in protest that day, it is unlikely that all the rest who voted would choose to join Russia so overwhelmingly. You guys don't need to take my word for it, you can read articles in which statisticians pointed to this as being a statistical phenomenon, a thing of a very small probability. Likewise, a lack of international observers and any transparency supports this statistical suspicion, that the voting was rigged and crime premeditated. I just can't understand why Putin want to tickle himself so much for pleasure, with incredible support of crimeans, to chose such fantastic number as 95%?

Soviets used to select 99% for their support and love of voters. Now everybody knows that 99% was fake, so Putin has chosen a new 99, which is 95% (or is it 97% in the latest news?). Wow, smart move, now we believe, lol. However, assuming that he is not stupid, and he had run a survey about gullibility of Russian citizens, it means that 95% is a very believable support number for most Russians. This high number will prove to ordinary Russians how much Crimeans love Russia and how their military intervention was needed or even necessary. It feels good for them, therefore it is much easier to believe in 95% being a real support.

Did they publish a number of participants, how many voted? Did at least 53% voters showed up, to make it 51% ( 95% voted yes) of population for joining Russia? I only heard that "voters turnout was high".

 

[LeBrok]

Maybe Crimea should be independent, but I don't think it could survive on its own.

Why not, there are other small and well situated principalities/countries in Europe being very prosperous. All they need to go is tourism and casinos.

 

[Aberdeen]

Disregarding the fact that this referendum was illegal by any standard but Putin's, the 95% numbers proves that it was also fadged. Even if most Tatars and Ukrainians stayed home in protest that day, it is unlikely that all the rest who voted would choose to join Russia so overwhelmingly. You guys don't need to take my word for it, you can read articles in which statisticians pointed to this as being a statistical phenomenon, a thing of a very small probability. Likewise, a lack of international observers and any transparency supports this statistical suspicion, that the voting was rigged and crime premeditated. I just can't understand why Putin want to tickle himself so much for pleasure, with incredible support of crimeans, to chose such fantastic number as 95%?

Soviets used to select 99% for their support and love of voters. Now everybody knows that 99% was fake, so Putin has chosen a new 99, which is 95% (or is it 97% in the latest news?). Wow, smart move, now we believe, lol. However, assuming that he is not stupid, and he had run a survey about gullibility of Russian citizens, it means that 95% is a very believable support number for most Russians. This high number will prove to ordinary Russians how much Crimeans love Russia and how their military intervention was needed or even necessary. It feels good for them, therefore it is much easier to believe in 95% being a real support.

Did they publish a number of participants, how many voted? Did at least 53% voters showed up, to make it 51% ( 95% voted yes) of population for joining Russia? I only heard that "voters turnout was high".

At one point, CBC said that the Crimean electoral officials reported 80% participation, which CBC found to be an interesting number, since most of the Ukrainians and Tatars apparently boycotted the vote. I don't know why Crimean officials came up with 80% participation - surely 150% participation would be more impressive. But perhaps you're right in thinking that the numbers are intended for Russian consumption only, and Putin doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[LeBrok]

But perhaps you're right in thinking that the numbers are intended for Russian consumption only, and Putin doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks.

Logic points to it, though I suspected that Putin made this farce for the rest of the world and didn't care what ordinary Russians think. I've missed the fact that all dictators wants to be loved by people, their own people in particular.

 

[Coolboygcp]

At one point, CBC said that the Crimean electoral officials reported 80% participation, which CBC found to be an interesting number, since most of the Ukrainians and Tatars apparently boycotted the vote. I don't know why Crimean officials came up with 80% participation - surely 150% participation would be more impressive. But perhaps you're right in thinking that the numbers are intended for Russian consumption only, and Putin doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks.

I think that the Russians exaggerated the participation rate. It was probably more around 40-60%, than 80%. 80% is not realistic at all. I agree with LeBrok regarding what he said about the Russians holding an illegal and illegitimate referendum.

I read in The Guardian recently an article about how Angela Merkel was talking with Obama, and she told him that Putin has gone off the deep end, that he is in his own world, and that's he's gone too far with this, etc. And, I have to agree with Merkel, he is in his own world, and he has dug himself into a hole too deep for him to get out of. This could potentially be the ruin of his political career, but he's a dictator so he won't be deposed easily.

 

[Coolboygcp]

Why not, there are other small and well situated principalities/countries in Europe being very prosperous. All they need to go is tourism and casinos.

Exactly. Crimea has a good location, all they need is more tourism facilities, hotels, casinos, etc. And they need a good PR firm to market Crimea worldwide. Also, if they could find some ancient ruins, that would draw tourists to there as well. It could be the Greece of the Black Sea. (Tourism-wise, not economically.)

 

[Coolboygcp]

Maybe Crimea should be independent, but I don't think it could survive on its own.
The whole referendum seems a farce, organised to give the Russians legitimacy.
On the other hand, what is the legitimacy of the present 'rulers' in Kiev?
They have not been elected. Yanukovitch was corrupt and abused his power, but at least, he was elected by the whole nation of Ukraine.

Yes, the referendum is a farce.

Well, the people in power in Kiev are only for the interim, until the early elections are held. And, they were elected, just not for the positions they currently hold. At least they will only be the leaders for the interim, and once the new elections are held, there will be new leaders of Ukraine, elected for the positions they will hold.

If Crimea could be truly independent, and not be in the Russian sphere of influence, and join the EU in the future, I would be totally for it. Especially if it was a Greek or a Tatar nation. But, I don't think that would happen, unfortunately.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

hahaha I see hysteria in comments of our Anglo-Saxon "friends" - sign that Vlad once again is doing right thing

.

Long live the people of 84th Crimean federal subject!

Homeland of RF Black Sea fleet, future tourist & Gardariki dissolute life capital

 

[LeBrok]

hahaha I see hysteria in comments of our Anglo-Saxon "friends" - sign that Vlad once again is doing right thing

.

Long live the people of 84th Crimean federal subject!

Homeland of RF Black Sea fleet, future tourist & Gardariki dissolute life capital

Russian definition of hysteria must be way different, lol, "Everyone's opinion not in agreement with Putin's."

Let see if you'll be still optimistic and pro Putin in 5 years.

 

[martiko]

Logic points to it, though I suspected that Putin made this farce for the rest of the world and didn't care what ordinary Russians think. I've missed the fact that all dictators wants to be loved by people, their own people in particular.

I know the Russian I know is that two of them are in France, they are afraid and prefer to continue to live in France for two in Russia they say that they have very fear of war and Putin, I think Putin will soon be as loved as Stalin in another era, but the Russian people they suffer from the economic crisis and fear an economic disaster for Russia: a cute taken from a barrel of crude oil.

 

[Coolboygcp]

hahaha I see hysteria in comments of our Anglo-Saxon "friends" - sign that Vlad once again is doing right thing

.

Long live the people of 84th Crimean federal subject!

Homeland of RF Black Sea fleet, future tourist & Gardariki dissolute life capital

Hysteria? I pretty much have only seen rational responses to the illegal and illegitimate referendum conducted by Russia, in order to "prove" to the world that the people of Crimes want to be part of Russia. In actuality, the majority people of Crimea don't want to be part of your corrupt, non-democratic, totalitarian, unstable, oppressive dictatorship. If Angela Merkel says that your leader is out of his mind, and that he is in his own world, that's pretty bad.

Also, "Vlad" has never made done the right thing. He beat and cheated on his wife, invaded Georgia and now Ukraine, has supported corrupt dictatorships (like Russia), has given money and weapons to countries like Iran, Syria, North Korea, etc., and much more.

Give it some time, and Russia will dissolve in a few years time. Mark my words, Russia will become the next Ukraine, or Syria; as soon as the people of Russia wake up, and revolt against their oppressors.

Also, if your country was so great, why are there millions are people fleeing it every year? How come many Russians now live in Europe, or America? Because they are better than Russia!

And also, Russia is only going down from here. Their population is falling, as is their economy, and their influence. Russia will not be of importance; actually it already is not of importance to the international community.

After Russia has a revolution in a few years, they'll probably join the EU and NATO afterward; which would be the best choice for Russia, as the EU is much more powerful, and has a larger population than Russia.

 

[martiko]

therefore it is only 97 % of favourable vote, in fact I had badly heard and I had understood 117 %.
But it is because it is 3 %? Is what they are still alive, this kamikaze?
It is not very believable that it am so many audacious people, 3 % there it is huge, in France there were no resistance fighters against fachistes.

 

[Coolboygcp]

I know the Russian I know is that two of them are in France, they are afraid and prefer to continue to live in France for two in Russia they say that they have very fear of war and Putin, I think Putin will soon be as loved as Stalin in another era, but the Russian people they suffer from the economic crisis and fear an economic disaster for Russia: a cute taken from a barrel of crude oil.

Well, the two Russians that you know in France are smart to stay in France; it is much better for them in France than Russia. I would be afraid to return to such a country like Russia, where the people are oppressed by a crazy dictator, where the economy is collapsing, and the population is decreasing as well.

If I was in Russia, I would have a fear of war in Russia, as well; as it will come. Russia will probably have a civil war, and after that, the Russia people will be free. Russia is also heading towards an economic disaster, as you already said.

What did you think of Russia, in your travel in Russia?

 

[Coolboygcp]

therefore it is only 97 % of favourable vote, in fact I had badly heard and I had understood 117 %.
But it is because it is 3 %? Is what they are still alive, this kamikaze?

Does Putin think that people will believe these referendum results? Most people in Crimea don't want to be part of Russia, but Russia wants Crimea, and Russia/Putin doesn't care what Crimeans want or what the world wants.

 

[ElHorsto]

hahaha I see hysteria in comments of our Anglo-Saxon "friends"

Never challenge Kim Jong Cameron's 99.8% Falkland Islands referendum!

 

[LeBrok]

Now when Crimea is Russian it opens a flood gate for all Russian Tatars to migrate there without passports or visas. In 20 years there will be more Tatars than others. With first opportunity they will demand a referendum for independence. There is still a chance for first Tatar state in the future. Especially if Russia sucks economically for a long time.

 

[LeBrok]

The last order of Russian Crimea is to get rid of Ukrainian troops. What will Putin do?

1. Surround them and do nothing till Ukrainians are bored and hungry and go home.
2. Because Ukrainians are playing passive, Russians will get into bases unopposed and force them to get into transports and move them out.
3. Ukraine will (wisely) move troops to Ukraine next few days not to give Putin any opportunity of conflict and further invasions.
4. Russians vigilantes will attack Ukrainian bases in their patriotic fight with "occupiers". It happened today on small scale. Ukrainians fight back, and next Crimean war starts. Small and short this time, unless muslim Tatars and Ukrainians will join the effort.

I'll pick 1st or 3rd option, less likely is 2nd and even less 4th.

 

[LeBrok]

The last order of Russian Crimea is to get rid of Ukrainian troops. What will Putin do?

1. Surround them and do nothing till Ukrainians are bored and hungry and go home.
2. Because Ukrainians are playing passive, Russians will get into bases unopposed and force them to get into transports and move them out.
3. Ukraine will (wisely) move troops to Ukraine next few days not to give Putin any opportunity of conflict and further invasions.
4. Russians vigilantes will attack Ukrainian bases in their patriotic fight with "occupiers". It happened today on small scale. Ukrainians fight back, and next Crimean war starts. Small and short this time, unless muslim Tatars and Ukrainians will join the effort.

I'll pick 1st or 3rd option, less likely is 2nd and even less 4th.

Looks like Russians going for option 2. It is very risky and might turn into a battle with many killed. From TV news I'm not sure if this is action done by Russian military or local Russian ethnic militia? If militia then I'm not sure why Putin allows it? Last thing he needs is to kill Ukrainians. Not much to gain if any, but lose a lot.