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Thread: Just how important were Y-haplogroups E-M34, J1 and T in the LBK culture ?

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    this is confusing, what are you aiming for?.................is it to prove R1b was atlantic CZ first or ?

    Clearly R1b is not in BB culture as shown ( G2a dominates this ) and it must be an eastern group which arrived in Europe as a "dynastic" farming group. It the only way it can dominate the original other haplogroups that arrived earlier
    No. I'm saying that it's a mistake to talk about whether R1b was or was not part of LBK culture, since I think that if it arrived in Europe during the Neolithic, it would have arrived either across/along the Mediterranean or migrated from North Africa into Spain. If the areas where R1b is most common today are those areas where R1b first spread in Europe (which I admit has not been proven), it would have originally been largely an Atlantic (and possibly Mediterranean) phenomenon. Once we have enough data from the right places, we'll know whether or not R1b was in Europe during the Neolithic, but I've never thought it had anything to do with the epicentre of LBK.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    But none of those samples are from areas that currently have high levels of R1b. Talk to me once there are a number of Neolithic samples from Ireland, Wales or the Basque country. Then we'll know whether or not R1b was present in the European Atlantic coastal zone during the Neolithic.
    I think you're wrong here. Modern frequency is unlikely to correspond to ancient frequency, so testing in places with high modern frequency of R1b isn't likely to confirm much of anything. Also, here are some rough modern R1b percentages in the areas that have been sampled, taken by eyeballing Maciamo's maps:
    Avellaner cave: +80%
    Treilles: +60%
    La Pierre Fritte: +50%
    Ötzi: +40%
    Derenburg Meerenstieg: +40%
    Eulau: +25%
    Jagodno: +5%

    There are some pretty high R1b areas that have been sampled. Catalonia for example is not too far off of the Basque Country and Wales in terms of R1b frequency, and may be higher than Ireland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think you're wrong here. Modern frequency is unlikely to correspond to ancient frequency, so testing in places with high modern frequency of R1b isn't likely to confirm much of anything. Also, here are some rough modern R1b percentages in the areas that have been sampled, taken by eyeballing Maciamo's maps:
    Avellaner cave: +80%
    Treilles: +60%
    La Pierre Fritte: +50%
    Ötzi: +40%
    Derenburg Meerenstieg: +40%
    Eulau: +25%
    Jagodno: +5%

    There are some pretty high R1b areas that have been sampled. Catalonia for example is not too far off of the Basque Country and Wales in terms of R1b frequency, and may be higher than Ireland.
    We'll see, once there are more results from the relevant areas to look at. That doesn't change the fact that the question of whether R1b was in Europe during the Neolithic has nothing to do with LBK, at least in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Of Neolithic European farmers before Bell Beaker culture, we have Y-DNA samples for 36 individuals across 7 studies. See Jean Manco. The current tally is:

    G2a: 25
    I2a1a: 4
    F: 2
    R1a1: 2
    E1b1b: 1
    G?: 1
    J or I?: 1
    I remember a study with G2a in cardial Italy, but I don't find it back

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Of Neolithic European farmers before Bell Beaker culture, we have Y-DNA samples for 36 individuals across 7 studies. See Jean Manco. The current tally is:

    G2a: 25
    I2a1a: 4
    F: 2
    R1a1: 2
    E1b1b: 1
    G?: 1
    J or I?: 1
    I was referring to LBK and I remember only one article Haak et al.(2010) where only three samples ware tested for Y haplogroup, two F* and one G2a2b( isogg). If R1b was spread with LBK I wouldn't expect it in southern route of spread of agriculture like in Cardium pottery. Three samples are not enough to draw conclusion. We do not know which Haplogroups ware responsible of spread of agriculture in central European route, R1b is still the suspect.
    Here is map from supplementary material of Busby et al.(2011) showing frequencies of R1b subclades and centers of spread of Neolithic cultures (stars):

    I don't think that this is just coincidence.

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