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Thread: Copper & Bronze Age Steppe people (PIE) had mixed light and dark pigmentation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Here's a link to an abstract of a paper suggesting that the move towards pale skin in Europeans during the last 5000 years is more a result of selection than migration.

    www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/05/1316513111

    I don't know how sound the conclusions are, or whether this paper illuminates the issue or whether it just confuses things. Here's a copy of the abstract.

    "Pigmentation is a polygenic trait encompassing some of the most visible phenotypic variation observed in humans. Here we present direct estimates of selection acting on functional alleles in three key genes known to be involved in human pigmentation pathways—HERC2, SLC45A2, and TYR—using allele frequency estimates from Eneolithic, Bronze Age, and modern Eastern European samples and forward simulations. Neutrality was overwhelmingly rejected for all alleles studied, with point estimates of selection ranging from around 2–10% per generation. Our results provide direct evidence that strong selection favoring lighter skin, hair, and eye pigmentation has been operating in European populations over the last 5,000 y."


    But that's the same paper as I posted about in this thread...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Considering the exclusive high caste distribution of J2a in South Asia and it's general association (after R1 and R2) of it with Indo-Iranic folks, it probably was, together with J2b, part of the Indo European movement too.
    I very much doubt it. J2a could have been picked up by the Indo-Aryans in southern Central Asia (Bactria, Margiana) before entering the Indian subcontinent. But J2a isn't found at comparably high levels proportionally to R1a and R1b in North Asia or most of northern and western Europe. For example in Denmark, Sweden, Belarus and Russia there is only about 2.5% of J2 and half of it J2b2. In Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Iceland there is close to 0% of J2. I don't see how J2 could have been a significant lineage of the PIE Steppe people.

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    You're talking about the most peripheral parts of Europe where Indo-Europeans arrived pretty late and already evolved into somehow different people. The places you're talking about are NOT really traditional Kurgan areas, right!? Indo-Europeans migrated to the peripheral parts of Europe in STAGES. Before that they lived in Central Europe, where they gained more other haplogroups. In Ukraine and Northern Caucasus around the places where the Maykop culture and proto-Yamna was there's a lot J2a. Also J2a is arguably the most important haplogroup in the northern Middle East. It was part of all civilizations in that part of the world. If R1b is also from the Middle East how is it then possible that they haven't picked up the most important haplogroup on their way to the Maytkop/the Steppes? Not very logical and doesn't make any sense to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You're talking about the most peripheral parts of Europe where Indo-Europeans arrived pretty late and already evolved into somehow different people. The places you're talking about are NOT really traditional Kurgan areas, right!? Indo-Europeans migrated to the peripheral parts of Europe in STAGES. Before that they lived in Central Europe, where they gained more other haplogroups. In Ukraine and Northern Caucasus around the places where the Maykop culture and proto-Yamna was there's a lot J2a. Also J2a is arguably the most important haplogroup in the northern Middle East. It was part of all civilizations in that part of the world. If R1b is also from the Middle East how is it then possible that they haven't picked up the most important haplogroup on their way to the Maytkop/the Steppes? Not very logical and doesn't make any sense to me!
    How are Russia and Belarus peripheral parts of the Steppe culture where PIE arrived very late ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    'It has been proven that the Maykop folks came from Northwest Iranian Plateau.'
    Where did you get this information? What proof do you have?
    IMO the originals Pontic Steppe population was R1a and R1b came from the Northwest Iranian Plateau. The Maykop were mainly G2a and they came from the Balkans/Carpaths.
    There was once a study which showed a link between Southwest of the Caspian and Maykop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I very much doubt it. J2a could have been picked up by the Indo-Aryans in southern Central Asia (Bactria, Margiana) before entering the Indian subcontinent. But J2a isn't found at comparably high levels proportionally to R1a and R1b in North Asia or most of northern and western Europe. For example in Denmark, Sweden, Belarus and Russia there is only about 2.5% of J2 and half of it J2b2. In Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Iceland there is close to 0% of J2. I don't see how J2 could have been a significant lineage of the PIE Steppe people.
    Well for now there isn't any prove but I think there are in general only three real explanations for the spread of J2a.

    1. either with Indo Europeans.
    2. Or with late Bronze and Iron Age cultures. (Etruscans, Minoans etc.)
    3. Or with both scenarios.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have started a page summarising all the ancient mtDNA and Y-DNA results from Bronze Age Proto-Indo-European cultures. I have only added Yamna at present, but will add other cultures soon.

    I have also created a map of the Yamna + Maykop cultures.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Exactly, As we know ANE was partly ancestral to Gedrosia-Caucasus/North Euro/Amerindian/ASI. So what if the ANE component among the Indo Europeans was more "Gedrosia_Caucasus like" (note the "like", because Caucasus_Gedrosia as component arose with farmer adfmixture) earlier and drifted through time into a "North European like" component.
    Whereas this drift was caused by WHG and probably again once more by ANE admixture (ANE-WHG is a spectrum). The onset of this admixture is evidenced by the significant percentage of mesolithic mtDNA lineages like U5a, U4 and even U5b. I think these IEans became quite similar to modern europeans over time.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's not that they were afraid of the evil eye, the evil eye was protecting them and threatening their ennemies

    Attachment 6288
    You have this the wrong way around. The whole point is that people are afraid of the effects of the evil eye, or of people who have the power of the evil eye more precisely, and so therefore they wear an amulet shaped and colored like it to ward off its evil...to stare back at it, sort of like a boomerang effect.

    This is the Wiki article on it...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_eye#cite_note-1

    "The evil eye is a malevolent look that many cultures believe able to cause injury or misfortune for the person at whom it is directed for reasons of envy or dislike. Talismans created to protect against the evil eye are also frequently called "evil eyes."

    The talismans work through what is called sympathetic magic.

    The "blue eye" is only one of the talismans against it...southern Italians still wear the "mano cornuto" for example, related to the hamsa hand.

    As to the association of the evil eye with blue eyes...
    Cora Lynn Daniels, The Encyclopedia of Superstitions, Folklore, and the Occult Sciences, page 1273:
    "The evil eye is supposed to be caused by a certain potent liquid which is more common in blue eyes than in other eyes. It may be in the eye of a friend as well as an enemy, and may be cast unconsciously."

    The world has changed...because of the media, because for the last couple of hundred years the dominant world powers have been light haired and eyed, and yet these beliefs do linger on. As a young girl, I was told by a very old Neapolitan woman to wear an amulet, especially if I was going to be around a lot of light eyed people. Ironically, she had aqua blue eyes herself.

    The all seeing eye is a different although related concept solely due, I think, to the fact that the eye was always associated with power.


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I have looked through the sources again;

    Loschbour [Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherer]: rs16891982 (C/C) dark-skin / rs1426654 (G/G) dark-skin
    Stuttgart [Neolithic Farmer]: rs16891982 (C/C) dark-skin / rs1426654 (A/A) light-skin

    Neither in Mesolithic nor in Neolithic Europe was rs16891982 tested to be G/G light-skin;
    Only in the ancient (Yamna/Cat1) samples from the steppes there are 7 corpses with rs16891982 G/G; This could mean that neither the Mesolithic nor the Neolithic but indeed the Indo-Europeans spread the rs16891982 G/G light-skin mutation;With theNeolithic previously only introducing the rs1426654 A/A light-skin mutation (as attested with both Ötziand Stuttgart having it); Unfortunately the study does not also include results (prob. no testing) of the corpses for rs1426654; Maybe the corpses were also all rs1426654 A/A just like the Neolithic Europeans i.e. akin/identical to Neolithic folks;

    What i want to say is that what is known is that;
    Mesolithic rs16891982 (C/C) / rs1426654 (G/G)
    Neolithic rs16891982 (C/C) / rs1426654 (A/A)
    Steppes (Indo-European) rs16891982 (G/G) ~40% of cases / rs1426654 not tested (my guess A/A)
    Steppes (Indo-European) rs16891982 (C/C-C/G) ~60% of cases / rs1426654 not tested (my guess A/A)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    How are Russia and Belarus peripheral parts of the Steppe culture where PIE arrived very late ?
    Actually the history is teaching us that pre-Slavic people were very late Indo-Europized in Northeastern Europe...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I have looked through the sources again;

    Loschbour [Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherer]: rs16891982 (C/C) dark-skin / rs1426654 (G/G) dark-skin
    Stuttgart [Neolithic Farmer]: rs16891982 (C/C) dark-skin / rs1426654 (A/A) light-skin

    Neither in Mesolithic nor in Neolithic Europe was rs16891982 tested to be G/G light-skin;
    Only in the ancient (Yamna/Cat1) samples from the steppes there are 7 corpses with rs16891982 G/G; This could mean that neither the Mesolithic nor the Neolithic but indeed the Indo-Europeans spread the rs16891982 G/G light-skin mutation;With theNeolithic previously only introducing the rs1426654 A/A light-skin mutation (as attested with both Ötziand Stuttgart having it); Unfortunately the study does not also include results (prob. no testing) of the corpses for rs1426654; Maybe the corpses were also all rs1426654 A/A just like the Neolithic Europeans i.e. akin/identical to Neolithic folks;

    What i want to say is that what is known is that;
    Mesolithic rs16891982 (C/C) / rs1426654 (G/G)
    Neolithic rs16891982 (C/C) / rs1426654 (A/A)
    Steppes (Indo-European) rs16891982 (G/G) ~40% of cases / rs1426654 not tested (my guess A/A)
    Steppes (Indo-European) rs16891982 (C/C-C/G) ~60% of cases / rs1426654 not tested (my guess A/A)
    I would agree that they were probably AA for rs1426654. (Why on earth didn't they test for it?)

    The question remains...how did the steppe peoples get the rs16891982 "G" mutation, or more precisely, from whom and when? I don't see anything that would suggest the mechanism was different, and so it must have entered the steppe with agriculturalists. From Maykop? From the Balkan "Old Europeans"?

    The only way we'll know is from ancient DNA samples from those areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    From the Balkan "Old Europeans"?

    The only way we'll know is from ancient DNA samples from those areas.
    Could be from Balkans but maybe also from the Neolithic Agriculturalists of Anatolia (they're closer to the Caucasus).

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    The main point of the Wilde paper argues for "rapid selection" of these complexion genes. (Which follows on the heels of a paper batting down the 'rapid selection' of lactase persistance rates in modern Europeans)

    Of course, this rapid selection simply doesn't jive with the historical record and mathematically doens't work.

    Whether it's artistic depictions of the Tassili Ladies, Thracians, Gutians, Tocharians...Or actual bodies of "Ginger" Naqada II, Scytho-Tocharians, Ramses II, Steppe Scythians and Bog People of the Chalcolithic/Bronze Age...

    It is very clear that fixation, as mentioned above, was already present in a donor population at least 5000 years ago. As one example, the Tassili ladies (2900 B.C.) aren't one white woman and four brown ladies. They are quite clearly uniformly lucoderm and generally rufous. Same true for the Tarim Mummies. Same true for the bog bodies who are mostly red heads.

    So rather than beginning with an arbitrary starting point from which rapid selection started and trying to crunch numbers to make selection work, that starting point couldn't happen at any point since at least the mid-Neolithic since certain populations are already bleach white by the Chalcolithic (Tassili ladies again).

    If Chalcolithic Steppe people were significantly darker and brown eyed than the modern inhabitants, then maybe that should be a hint!

    In other words, the Pontic Steppe was colonized by people who already, uniformly had these traits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have started a page summarising all the ancient mtDNA and Y-DNA results from Bronze Age Proto-Indo-European cultures. I have only added Yamna at present, but will add other cultures soon.

    I have also created a map of the Yamna + Maykop cultures.

    in the link you would mean, I guess, T1a or T1a2 but not T1a1 ............is it a misprint?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Isn't the pigmentation based on this report now?
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/pigmentation...nd-adaptation/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    in the link you would mean, I guess, T1a or T1a2 but not T1a1 ............is it a misprint?
    Actually it should be T1a2 (L131) and T1a1a1a (P77).

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    Just a question

    these are my results for the aforementioned SNP's

    HERC2 rs12913832 AG

    SLC45A2 rs16891982 CC

    TYR rs1042602 AC

    What does that say about my hair, eye or skin color.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Just a question

    these are my results for the aforementioned SNP's

    HERC2 rs12913832 AG

    SLC45A2 rs16891982 CC

    TYR rs1042602 AC

    What does that say about my hair, eye or skin color.
    Well, SLC45A2 derived allele "G" is strongly associated with fair skin, although it also affects hair and eyes. You are homozygous for the ancestral allele. To give you a point of comparison, that's rare for Europe. Do you know if you are derived for SLC24A5? I would assume you are derived for those snps.

    TYR "A" allele is likewise associated with light skin and eye pigmentation, although it also affects hair color. It also indicates absence of freckling, or, in another words, the pigmentation is even throughout the skin, even after exposure to sunlight. Here you are heterozygous.

    You are also heterozygous for the HERC 2 snp which is heavily associated with iris color, with GG indicating a higher likelihood of light eyes. It also affects hair and skin color, however.

    So, my guess would be dark brown hair, olive toned skin within the Near Eastern spectrum, and brown eyes with perhaps some lighter flecks, i.e. green or gold?

    How'd I do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, SLC45A2 derived allele "G" is strongly associated with fair skin, although it also affects hair and eyes. You are homozygous for the ancestral allele. To give you a point of comparison, that's rare for Europe. Do you know if you are derived for SLC24A5? I would assume you are derived for those snps.

    TYR "A" allele is likewise associated with light skin and eye pigmentation, although it also affects hair color. It also indicates absence of freckling, or, in another words, the pigmentation is even throughout the skin, even after exposure to sunlight. Here you are heterozygous.

    You are also heterozygous for the HERC 2 snp which is heavily associated with iris color, with GG indicating a higher likelihood of light eyes. It also affects hair and skin color, however.

    So, my guess would be dark brown hair, olive toned skin within the Near Eastern spectrum, and brown eyes with perhaps some lighter flecks, i.e. green or gold?

    How'd I do?
    These are my SLC24a5 results.



    Thats interesting that you mention lighter flecks of green, because according to GEDmatch too I should actually ended up with Green eyes. But as you said, I have brown eyes (Must have been more of coincidence than). Since my mother has blue and my father brown eyes, the G must have been from maternal and A from paternal side I assume. I have (light) Olive skin with some weird reddish/rosy tone in it. My hair color is Dark Brown. So you were right :) good guessed.
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    Last edited by Alan; 14-03-14 at 23:46.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    These are my SLC24a5 results.



    Thats interesting that you mention lighter flecks of green, because according to GEDmatch too I should actually ended up with Green eyes. But as you said, I have brown eyes (Must have been more of coincidence than). Since my mother has blue and my father brown eyes, the G must have been from maternal and A from paternal side I assume. I have Olive/light Olive skin with some weird reddish tone in it. My hair color is Dark Brown/Black. So you were right :) good guessed.
    Mine...............we only match with your AA lines

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  23. #48
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
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    HV2a1 +G13708A

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Mine...............we only match with your AA lines

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    And one CC line (rs2433354) :)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    So to recapitulate: The Indo-Europeans had predominantly brown hair and eyes, 60% olive skin, and Neolithic farmer mtdna.
    And according to the paper their appearance changed considerably towards "blondism" in Northern Europe due to extremely fast selection in the last 5000 years. It is hard to refute their experimental data; the only thing that I don't quite buy is their conclusion about "fast selection in the last 5000 yrs". It just seems that the early Indo-European pioneers were more of a Near-Eastern/Anatolian/(Neolithic Farmer) package that only culturally and linguistically dominated Northwest Eurasia. The current genetic map of Europe is more of the most recent migrations of the "Barbarian" tribes from extreme and isolated Northern areas.

  25. #50
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Catalan
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    My results are the same as yours, Sile.

    HERC2 rs12913832 GG

    SLC45A2 rs16891982 GG

    TYR rs1042602 AC

    I guess this matches my pigmentation quite well: Blue eyes, very light skin, and dark brown hair. There are lots of SNPs to consider though, the ones listed by 23andme regarding hair colour say rather the oppostie for me:

    rs1805007 CC (Typical odds of having red hair) - T is the mutation which seems responsible of red hair

    rs1667394 TT (Typical odds of having blond hair) - C means decreased odds

    Actually they should revise their research and give more info. It is tedious to look for community threads to get a better idea.

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