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Thread: Copper & Bronze Age Steppe people (PIE) had mixed light and dark pigmentation

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I would agree that they were probably AA for rs1426654. (Why on earth didn't they test for it?)

    The question remains...how did the steppe peoples get the rs16891982 "G" mutation, or more precisely, from whom and when? I don't see anything that would suggest the mechanism was different, and so it must have entered the steppe with agriculturalists. From Maykop? From the Balkan "Old Europeans"?

    The only way we'll know is from ancient DNA samples from those areas.
    I agree that only more data (testing/results) can answer that question; Before Yamna [Pit Grave] there was the Sredny-Stog/Khvalynsk complex contemporary with Cucuteni-Tripolye of East Europe and Yamna was contemporary to Maykop/Kura-Araxes (South Caucasus) and Baden (Central Europe) i.e. results from those culture zones could reveal a lot;

    Also more data from Europe itself; All those Scandinavian (hunter-gatherer) samples of Motala (1/2/3/4/6/9/12) and Gotland (Ajv52/Ajv70/Ire8) and the farmers lady from Gökhem (Gök4); Ötzi (as far as i know) was also just tested for rs1426654 but not also rs16891982; Maybe however the current data remains representative in that only the Neolithic Farmers had rs1426654 A/A light-skin (as is the case Ötzi and Stuttgart) and remains absent in Hunter-Gatherers (as is the case Loschbour and La Brana); And if rs16891982 G/G light-skin remains absent in all Mesolithic/Neolithic Europe samples (as is the case so far La Brana/Loschbour/Stuttgart) than it could only have come from the Steppes (Yamna [Pit Grave] folks) for so far only the Steppe peoples (Yamna) have been results for rs16891982 G/G;

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    So to recapitulate: The Indo-Europeans had predominantly brown hair and eyes, 60% olive skin, and Neolithic farmer mtdna.
    And according to the paper their appearance changed considerably towards "blondism" in Northern Europe due to extremely fast selection in the last 5000 years. It is hard to refute their experimental data; the only thing that I don't quite buy is their conclusion about "fast selection in the last 5000 yrs". It just seems that the early Indo-European pioneers were more of a Near-Eastern/Anatolian/(Neolithic Farmer) package that only culturally and linguistically dominated Northwest Eurasia. The current genetic map of Europe is more of the most recent migrations of the "Barbarian" tribes from extreme and isolated Northern areas.
    This seems likely to me. The Germanic migrations must have had a huge impact, I think.

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    Edit......

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    So to recapitulate: The Indo-Europeans had predominantly brown hair and eyes, 60% olive skin, and Neolithic farmer mtdna.
    And according to the paper their appearance changed considerably towards "blondism" in Northern Europe due to extremely fast selection in the last 5000 years. It is hard to refute their experimental data; the only thing that I don't quite buy is their conclusion about "fast selection in the last 5000 yrs". It just seems that the early Indo-European pioneers were more of a Near-Eastern/Anatolian/(Neolithic Farmer) package that only culturally and linguistically dominated Northwest Eurasia. The current genetic map of Europe is more of the most recent migrations of the "Barbarian" tribes from extreme and isolated Northern areas.
    Where exactly did the study mention Northern Europe? Unless i missed something it does not mention Northern Europe at all; The selection process described is for the Steppes/Eastern Europe itself;

    'Dietary change during the Neolithization process may have reinforced selection pressure favoring depigmented skin. The individuals analyzed in this study lived ∼500–2,000 y after the arrival of farming in the region north of the Black Sea (42, 43).'

    'In sum, a combination of selective pressures associated with living in northern latitudes, the adoption of an agriculturalist diet, and assortative mating may sufficiently explain the observed change from a darker phenotype during the Eneolithic/Early Bronze age to a generally lighter one in modern Eastern Europeans, although other selective factors cannot be discounted.'

    Again - unless i have missed something than this study is not talking about a selection process from the Steppes into Northern Europe but solely for (within) the Steppes itself; For the rest i agree the majority (in the steppes) was still Neolithic stock;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Where exactly did the study mention Northern Europe? Unless i missed something it does not mention Northern Europe at all; The selection process described is for the Steppes/Eastern Europe itself;
    I cannot find Northern Europe specifically mentioned either, but they say things such as:
    Our results indicate that strong selection has been operating on pigmentation-related genes within western Eurasia for the past 5,000 y...
    Conversely, continuity between early central European farmers
    and modern Europeans has been rejected in a previous study
    (33). However, the Eneolithic and Bronze Age sequences presented
    here are ∼500–2,000 y younger than the early Neolithic
    and belong to lineages identified both in early farmers and late
    hunter–gatherers from central Europe (33). A plausible explanation
    for this is that the prehistoric populations sampled in this
    study are a product of admixture between in situ hunter–gatherers
    and immigrant early farmers during the centuries after the arrival
    of farming, and that this admixture was a major process
    shaping modern patterns of mtDNA variation (34) and possibly also the variability observed in European hair, eye, and skin color...


    So it seems they try to draw conclusions about the whole Europe, in places. I agree thou that their samples are only from Bronze Age Pontic-Caspian Steppe; supposedly the center of Proto-Indo-Europeans. Which comes back to what I said that Northern Europeans are more of a product of Iron Age and later Southern expansion of Germanic tribes and not direct descendants of Proto-Indo-Europeans. Now, who did these Germanic tribes descend from and how did they become "blonde" in the last 5000 years, it is still open for debate. So far I can deduce they descend from other tribes within Europe, because blue eyes are exclusive to Western Eurasia. Simply put, there must have been a tribe somewhere in North/Central Europe with blue eyes that got conquered by a minority of Bronze Age proto-Indo-Europeans.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I agree that only more data (testing/results) can answer that question; Before Yamna [Pit Grave] there was the Sredny-Stog/Khvalynsk complex contemporary with Cucuteni-Tripolye of East Europe and Yamna was contemporary to Maykop/Kura-Araxes (South Caucasus) and Baden (Central Europe) i.e. results from those culture zones could reveal a lot;

    Also more data from Europe itself; All those Scandinavian (hunter-gatherer) samples of Motala (1/2/3/4/6/9/12) and Gotland (Ajv52/Ajv70/Ire8) and the farmers lady from Gökhem (Gök4); Ötzi (as far as i know) was also just tested for rs1426654 but not also rs16891982; Maybe however the current data remains representative in that only the Neolithic Farmers had rs1426654 A/A light-skin (as is the case Ötzi and Stuttgart) and remains absent in Hunter-Gatherers (as is the case Loschbour and La Brana); And if rs16891982 G/G light-skin remains absent in all Mesolithic/Neolithic Europe samples (as is the case so far La Brana/Loschbour/Stuttgart) than it could only have come from the Steppes (Yamna [Pit Grave] folks) for so far only the Steppe peoples (Yamna) have been results for rs16891982 G/G;
    If I am reading this correctly, Oetzi was "G" or derived for SLC45A2 or rs16891982. See Table S6 of the Supplementary Information of Keller et al. That, and his other pigmentation snps, is undoubtedly why he was described as "very fair skinned".
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...ry-information

    So, if this is correct, rs16891982, or SLC45A2 was already in a yDNA "G2a" member of a central European Neolithic/Chalcolithic culture in 3300 B.C.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I cannot find Northern Europe specifically mentioned either, but they say things such as:
    Our results indicate that strong selection has been operating on pigmentation-related genes within western Eurasia for the past 5,000 y...
    Conversely, continuity between early central European farmers
    and modern Europeans has been rejected in a previous study
    (33). However, the Eneolithic and Bronze Age sequences presented
    here are ∼500–2,000 y younger than the early Neolithic
    and belong to lineages identified both in early farmers and late
    hunter–gatherers from central Europe (33). A plausible explanation
    for this is that the prehistoric populations sampled in this
    study are a product of admixture between in situ hunter–gatherers
    and immigrant early farmers during the centuries after the arrival
    of farming, and that this admixture was a major process
    shaping modern patterns of mtDNA variation (34) and possibly also the variability observed in European hair, eye, and skin color...


    So it seems they try to draw conclusions about the whole Europe, in places. I agree thou that their samples are only from Bronze Age Pontic-Caspian Steppe; supposedly the center of Proto-Indo-Europeans. Which comes back to what I said that Northern Europeans are more of a product of Iron Age and later Southern expansion of Germanic tribes and not direct descendants of Proto-Indo-Europeans. Now, who did these Germanic tribes descend from and how did they become "blonde" in the last 5000 years, it is still open for debate. So far I can deduce they descend from other tribes within Europe, because blue eyes are exclusive to Western Eurasia. Simply put, there must have been a tribe somewhere in North/Central Europe with blue eyes that got conquered by a minority of Bronze Age proto-Indo-Europeans.
    What was before the Corded-ware/Bronze-age (proto-Germanic/Germanic) peoples was the Neolithic complexes of LBK (+ successors) and later TBK [Funnel Beaker];
    Sample of LBK is Stuttgart (mtDNA T2) and samples of TBK are Gök4 (mtDNA H) and Ste7 (mtDNA T2);
    Both Stuttgart and Gök4 (Lazaridis et al 2013) are akin to each other and cluster together along with Ötzi (mtDNA K1) from the Neolithic Alps; The same scenario that the new study describes in the steppes i.e. 'A plausible explanation for this is that the prehistoric populations sampled in this study are a product of admixture between in situ hunter–gatherers and immigrant early farmers during the centuries after the arrival of farming,' could also have occurred during Neolithic Europe in LBK and TBK with the admixed steppe folks further admixing when they appeared during the Chalcolithic/Bronze-age; For what they found in the steppes was both light-eyes [rs12913832 G/G] as well as light-skin [rs16891982 G/G]; Ultimately it could all result from the admixture of all these three movements (+ ANE Afontova) as is also the case for modern Europeans;

    If a tribe existed in Europe that had all that in combination on its own than future data will reveal it; As of now the current data of Mesolithic and Neolithic doesnt suggest it at all;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    These are my SLC24a5 results.



    Thats interesting that you mention lighter flecks of green, because according to GEDmatch too I should actually ended up with Green eyes. But as you said, I have brown eyes (Must have been more of coincidence than). Since my mother has blue and my father brown eyes, the G must have been from maternal and A from paternal side I assume. I have Olive skin with some weird reddish/rosy tone in it. My hair color is Dark Brown/Black. So you were right :) good guessed.
    This is only a very rough analysis, of course. Last time I looked, there were over 120 snps that affected pigmentation, although SLC24A5, and SLC45A2 account for up to 80% of the variation. I don't know if there is a thread here devoted to results for pigmentation snps, but if there isn't and some people are interested in comparisons, someone could probably start one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If I am reading this correctly, Oetzi was "G" or derived for SLC45A2 or rs16891982. See Table S6 of the Supplementary Information of Keller et al. That, and his other pigmentation snps, is undoubtedly why he was described as "very fair skinned".
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...ry-information

    So, if this is correct, rs16891982, or SLC45A2 was already in a yDNA "G2a" member of a central European Neolithic/Chalcolithic culture in 3300 B.C.
    Excellent find Angela;
    So Ötzi was rs16891982 G/G and rs1426654 A/A where as Stuttgart was rs16891982 C/C and rs1426654 A/A; Was Stuttgart admixed (more) with Hunter-gatherers?

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    Does anyone have the most up to date figures from archaeology for when the Yamnaya people are estimated to have arrived in, say, Hungary? I may be mistaken, but I thought the dates were more recent than Oetzi's 3300 B.C.

    I realize this has nothing to do with where or when these "Indo-Europeans" got the SLC45A2 "G" marker themselves; I'm just trying to think through whether the marker arose solely in Neolithicized populations around the Black Sea, or if it occurred in a wider Neolithic context.

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    anyone can figure out the eye color of Neolithic Europeans right before the Bronze Age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    anyone can figure out the eye color of Neolithic Europeans right before the Bronze Age?
    Suttgart, Gok and Iceman were more likely brown eyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Excellent find Angela;
    So Ötzi was rs16891982 G/G and rs1426654 A/A where as Stuttgart was rs16891982 C/C and rs1426654 A/A; Was Stuttgart admixed (more) with Hunter-gatherers?



    I haven't had time to dig into the supplementary tables again, which are a lot more informative and precise, but just going by the PCA graphic from Lazaridis et al that Dienekes highlighted on his thread about that paper, it seems as if Oetzi is drifting slightly more toward the Hunter -Gatherers than Stuttgart? It's hard to tell because the colors are so small, but that's what it seems like...
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12...esolithic.html

    Anyway, there doesn't seem to be very much difference between them in that regard.

    Are you thinking that Stuttgart, if she has less HG than Oetzi, should be lighter? And the fact that she isn't implies that the SLC42A5 present in Oetzi came from steppe migrations? That's why I asked if anyone has the latest dates for when the "Indo-Europeans" reached Central Europe. I think I remember reading on Anthrogenica that there's been some waffling on the dates, but I don't remember the most recent date assigned to that event.

    I know that the SLC24A5 gene mutation which was present in the Stuttgart woman has been proposed to have occurred somewhere between the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent, but I don't think anyone has yet done the same kind of analysis for SLC42A5. Regardless, SLC24A5 was in the Stuttgart farmer, and SLC42A5 was in Oetzi, and in some of these steppe people as well.

    As to the discussion that went on above about selection versus migration, I may be simplifying this too much, but it seemed as if the authors were considering a selection in place as opposed to a migration changing the range of these alleles on the steppe, and came down in favor of selection in place. I think that's how you see it as well, correct? Well, not personally, :) I mean that's how you read the paper's assertions?

    The difficulty with making judgments like this about the steppe is that there's been a documented migration of Slavic peoples in really recent times (early Middle Ages) into the area, yes? So, couldn't the change to the levels seen in modern inhabitants of the Ukraine be explained in that way? Of course, given that there is mtDNA continuity, the DNA of the Slavs had to be pretty similar.

    I think it's more than interesting that ideas that were universally held even a few years ago are getting totally overturned. Based on the perceived discontinuity of the mtDNA in central Europe between very early LBK and later eras, all the talk was of complete population replacement with the coming of the steppe peoples. Well, not quite, and not even in terms of mtDNA.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I haven't had time to dig into the supplementary tables again, which are a lot more informative and precise, but just going by the PCA graphic from Lazaridis et al that Dienekes highlighted on his thread about that paper, it seems as if Oetzi is drifting slightly more toward the Hunter -Gatherers than Stuttgart? It's hard to tell because the colors are so small, but that's what it seems like...
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12...esolithic.html

    Anyway, there doesn't seem to be very much difference between them in that regard.

    Are you thinking that Stuttgart, if she has less HG than Oetzi, should be lighter? And the fact that she isn't implies that the SLC42A5 present in Oetzi came from steppe migrations? That's why I asked if anyone has the latest dates for when the "Indo-Europeans" reached Central Europe. I think I remember reading on Anthrogenica that there's been some waffling on the dates, but I don't remember the most recent date assigned to that event.
    Yes; It looks that there is not much difference at all; One difference is that Stuttgart is at least 1500 years older than Ötzi; I dont think Ötzi was from the steppes simply just like the other Neolithic folks from Anatolia/Near-East (maybe South Caucasus); Def. a common 'immigrant' origin for the Neolithic farmers and their cultures as thus illustrated by Ötzi/Gök4(TBK)/Stuttgart(LBK) and Bramanti et al 2009 - 'these analyses provide persuasive evidence that the first farmers were not the descendants of local hunter-gatherers but immigrated into central Europe at the onset of the Neolithic'

    The Steppe folks had strong contacts to the east Balkan (west Black Sea) area throughout the 5th mil BC with Sredny-Stog and Cucuteni-Tripolye; Also the destruction of Gumelnita-KaronovoVI in the late-5th/early-4th is associated with Indo-European steppe folks;

    David W. Anthony - The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2010) [Princeton Uni.]
    Between about 4200 and 3900 BCE more than six hundred tell settlements of the Gumelnita, Karanovo VI and varna cultures were burned and abandoned in the lower danube valley and eastern Bulgaria...."We are faced with the complete replacement of a culture" the foremost expert on Eneolithic metallurgy E. N. Chernykh said. It was "a catastrophe of colossal scope...a complete cultural caesura" according to the Bulgarian archaeologist H. Todorova

    In Central Europe the emergence of the hybrid Globular-Amphora (mid 4th mil BC) and the successor Corded-ware (early 3rd mil BC) signalizes the Indo-Europeans from the east (i.e. east to west);

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As to the discussion that went on above about selection versus migration, I may be simplifying this too much, but it seemed as if the authors were considering a selection in place as opposed to a migration changing the range of these alleles on the steppe, and came down in favor of selection in place. I think that's how you see it as well, correct? Well, not personally, :) I mean that's how you read the paper's assertions?
    The way i understood it is that the Steppe society was a hybrid of local hunter-gatherers and immigrant farmers; With selection process taking place (within the Steppes) after farming was established;

    'A plausible explanation for this is that the prehistoric populations sampled in this study are a product of admixture between in situ hunter–gatherers and immigrant early farmers during the centuries after the arrival of farming'

    'Dietary change during the Neolithization process may have reinforced selection pressure favoring depigmented skin. The individuals analyzed in this study lived ∼500–2,000 y after the arrival of farming in the region north of the Black Sea (42, 43)'

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think it's more than interesting that ideas that were universally held even a few years ago are getting totally overturned. Based on the perceived discontinuity of the mtDNA in central Europe between very early LBK and later eras, all the talk was of complete population replacement with the coming of the steppe peoples. Well, not quite, and not even in terms of mtDNA.
    Absolutely;
    That the Indo-Europeans always intermixed with the pre-existing pops. is already evident from Archaeology and Linguistics; Especially all the non-Indo-European elements in the distinct linguistic branches manifest it; And Genetics has clearly proven it; The view of complete population replacements was always flawed; There seems a much stronger continuation with the female (mtDNA) lineages;

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    I don't see many who used to say otzi was "farmer" are still saying it today. Jean Mano now states he was a herder, but a herder is a farmer to her. Oetzi is classified as a farmer in the context of these studies because the archaeological culture he belonged to mainly relied on farming for subsistence.

    Here's an interesting fact, Ötzi the Iceman was actually fair skinned:

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...ry-information

    He was rs16891982-G/G which is what most modern Europeans are. This same sample dates back to around 5000 years ago (Similar to the study from this thread).

    Besides pigmentation and mtDNA, did they do any further testing on these samples? The amount of rs16891982-C/C is quite overwhelming and certainly does not fit in that area.


    Exactly, he is the reason that I had put ' ' around farmers when I had mentioned to Jean - There is no evidence that I see that these 'farmers' were incoming. - as it is highly doubtful that he was either incoming or a farmer.

    Of course Ötzi wasn't an early Neolithic farmer straight off the boat from the Near East. He lived thousands of years later.

    But genetically Ötzi clusters with early European farmers, who most closely resemble modern people from Anatolia.


    Mtdna results below .........HG mtdna = 100% U


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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    My results are the same as yours, Sile.

    HERC2 rs12913832 GG

    SLC45A2 rs16891982 GG

    TYR rs1042602 AC

    I guess this matches my pigmentation quite well: Blue eyes, very light skin, and dark brown hair. There are lots of SNPs to consider though, the ones listed by 23andme regarding hair colour say rather the oppostie for me:

    rs1805007 CC (Typical odds of having red hair) - T is the mutation which seems responsible of red hair

    rs1667394 TT (Typical odds of having blond hair) - C means decreased odds

    Actually they should revise their research and give more info. It is tedious to look for community threads to get a better idea.
    hehehe, "twins" we have also the same christian name!

    but I have Green eyes and you Blue eyes.............the GG group covers both
    Last edited by Sile; 14-03-14 at 11:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is only a very rough analysis, of course. Last time I looked, there were over 120 snps that affected pigmentation, although SLC24A5, and SLC45A2 account for up to 80% of the variation. I don't know if there is a thread here devoted to results for pigmentation snps, but if there isn't and some people are interested in comparisons, someone could probably start one.
    True GEDmatch checked dozens of SNP's alone for the Iris coloring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Excellent find Angela;
    So Ötzi was rs16891982 G/G and rs1426654 A/A where as Stuttgart was rs16891982 C/C and rs1426654 A/A; Was Stuttgart admixed (more) with Hunter-gatherers?
    The Stuttgart sample had under 10% of HG admixture, far less than Ötzi, who was 43.1% "Atlantic_Baltic" in the Dodecad K7 calculator.

    Another important difference was their age. Stuttgart lived 2200 years before Ötzi. Many things can happen in such a time frame. Migration of new people, natural selection for some traits...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I don't see many who used to say otzi was "farmer" are still saying it today. Jean Mano now states he was a herder, but a herder is a farmer to her. Oetzi is classified as a farmer in the context of these studies because the archaeological culture he belonged to mainly relied on farming for subsistence.

    Here's an interesting fact, Ötzi the Iceman was actually fair skinned:

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...ry-information

    He was rs16891982-G/G which is what most modern Europeans are. This same sample dates back to around 5000 years ago (Similar to the study from this thread).

    Besides pigmentation and mtDNA, did they do any further testing on these samples? The amount of rs16891982-C/C is quite overwhelming and certainly does not fit in that area.


    Exactly, he is the reason that I had put ' ' around farmers when I had mentioned to Jean - There is no evidence that I see that these 'farmers' were incoming. - as it is highly doubtful that he was either incoming or a farmer.

    Of course Ötzi wasn't an early Neolithic farmer straight off the boat from the Near East. He lived thousands of years later.

    But genetically Ötzi clusters with early European farmers, who most closely resemble modern people from Anatolia.


    Mtdna results below .........HG mtdna = 100% U



    What Angela and I said, is that animal domestication is a technique which developed through farming and is therefore usually considered as part of the "farmer complex".


    Also interesting the high frequency of HV in Bronze Age Kazakhstan (Andronovo), Pitted Ware culture (South Scandinavia) and Rössen Culture

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Stuttgart sample had under 10% of HG admixture, far less than Ötzi, who was 43.1% "Atlantic_Baltic" in the Dodecad K7 calculator.

    Another important difference was their age. Stuttgart lived 2200 years before Ötzi. Many things can happen in such a time frame. Migration of new people, natural selection for some traits...

    Atlantic_Baltic of K7b is not good choice for a H&G signal because it absorbs a significant percentage of proto-farmer genes. A better calculator for farmer and H&G signal would be Lazaridis new paper or Dodecad K10a .

    But I got your point and agree that Ötzi was likely more H&G admixed than Stuttgart.
    Last edited by Alan; 14-03-14 at 15:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    hehehe, "twins" we have also the same christian name!

    but I have Green eyes and you Blue eyes.............the GG group covers both
    Yes, but there are other SNPs which result (added to the previous GG mutation) gives more chance of having green instead of blue eyes. For instance:

    rs12896399 - GG = increased odds of having green. I'm GT (Typical for blue eyes, even if TT is even stronger for that matter)
    rs1393350 - GG = ingreased odds of having green. AG for me. Typical again.

    I'm surely missing many others, but if you have double GG in both SNPs...that would make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Also interesting the high frequency of HV in Bronze Age Kazakhstan (Andronovo), Pitted Ware culture (South Scandinavia) and Rössen Culture
    HV clades seem quite frequent among modern Kurds, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    hehehe, "twins" we have also the same christian name!

    but I have Green eyes and you Blue eyes.............the GG group covers both

    I tried to be subtle and polite, but subtle and polite doesn't seem to work very well on this site at times...so I will politely but more directly ask if you would please stay on topic. An occasional digression is understandable, and often very interesting on its own, and Alan's request for guidance as to what these snps mean in terms of pigmentation was certainly appropriate, but a protracted discussion of individual results is distracting.

    Would you please take your private discussion to a dedicated thread for personal results where it would be more appropriate?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Angela; 14-03-14 at 17:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post

    HV clades seem quite frequent among modern Kurds, right?
    Yes it seems so. I would even go that far to claim, HV is one of the few maternal Haplogroups which has a paleolithic, mesolithic, neolithic as well Bronze/Iron Age (Indo European, Etruscan) origin/distribution.
    Last edited by Alan; 14-03-14 at 17:24.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Atlantic_Baltic of K7b is not good choice for a H&G signal because it absorbs a significant percentage of proto-farmer genes. A better calculator for farmer and H&G signal would be Lazaridis new paper or Dodecad K10a .

    But I got your point and agree that Ötzi was likely more H&G admixed than Stuttgart.
    Why do you think that Dodecad K10a would be any better than any of the other calculators for determining this? Don't they all suffer from the fact that they hide the farmer genes because they are showing post admixture signatures?

    Just trying to understand your reasoning.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why do you think that Dodecad K10a would be any better than any of the other calculators for determining this? Don't they all suffer from the fact that they hide the farmer genes because they are showing post admixture signatures?

    Just trying to understand your reasoning.
    I said better, not perfect. It's because K10a actually takes into account a likely more recent Northeast African gene flow into the Near East (Red Sea). And the "Mediterranean" in this calculator reaches levels of 60% in some parts of the Levant and therefore come closer to the "Proto Farmer" component. But as I said even K10a results are not representative for the Proto_Farmer component because a significant part of it must have been eaten up by "West Asian" and to some lesser extend some other components.

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