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Thread: Copper & Bronze Age Steppe people (PIE) had mixed light and dark pigmentation

  1. #101
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    Scythian culture is Iron age culture, and we don't have any Y-Dna from Scythians yet.
    And Pazyryk people are Scytho-Siberians not exactly Scythians, ancient authors named them Arimaspeans, and we don't have any Y-Dna from Pazyryk(Arimaspeans) yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Scythian culture is Iron age culture, and we don't have any Y-Dna from Scythians yet.
    And Pazyryk people are Scytho-Siberians not exactly Scythians, ancient authors named them Arimaspeans, and we don't have any Y-Dna from Pazyryk(Arimaspeans) yet.
    Mtdna of Pazyryk is N1a
    http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...ian_migrations


    Befor the Pazyryk people there were no N1a in Bronze age Altay
    http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2014/06/...age-altai.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Indo-Iranians from Siberia (my post above is basically about them, as well as about Tocharians) were not north European-like pigmented.

    That's because Northern Europeans of that time (and earlier times) were rather not pigmented the same way.

    Unlike those IE folks from Siberia, so far no hunter-gatherer pre-Indo-European remains from Scandinavia were identified as having blond hair.

    Two hunter-gatherer individuals from Sweden - one from Gotland (Pitted Ware Culture) and one from Motala (Mesolithic) were identified as having blue eyes. The one from Gotland - despite blue eyes - had dark skin, while the one from Motala had probably fair skin, but it wasn't determined for sure (and hair colour also couldn't be established). Another Mesolithic individual with blue eyes was discovered at Loschbour in Luxembourg, but skin was dark and hair was dark brown or black. Yet another Mesolithic individual with blue eyes was discovered at La Braña-Arintero in Spain, but hair was dark and skin was dark. All in all, so far there is no evidence that blond hair was in Scandinavia earlier than it was in Russia.

    There were Indo-European individuals with blond hair who lived in what is now steppe of Southern Russia, around the same time as Indo-European expansion into Scandinavia. So it seems more likely that blond hair spread together with Indo-Europeans.

    Another likely possibility is that blond hair emerged in several places of Eurasia separately.

    Red hair also most probably emerged in several places of Western Eurasia eparately.
    The Yamnaya people were significantly darker and just within the process of getting lighter. So when the Indo_Iranians evolved they were already lighter and had more Black/Brown and Blonde mixed individuals. I even assume that it was the Proto_Indo Iranians who introduced higher frequency of light hair. Maybe Corded Ware people were also just a extension of Proto Indo Iranians.

  4. #104
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    Sorry
    I put here an abstract I found again by hazard - its metric classical anthropology but can be useful - it concerns Bronze Age in Tarim Bassin and surroundings and Indo-European formation (perhaps) - I regreat the umprecision of terms and their "mysterious" unkown type they did not compare to anyone else what is curious - it confirms other studies concerning a Caspian or South-caspian area influences upon these regions along the southern Steppes belt, at least at some time (late bronze-Iron)-
    so the autosomals ANE could have been old enough East the Caspian and more southernly and maybe not a signal of N-E Europe introgression everytime? it could have been common as a minor element among populations of North India-Pakistan or Iran, Afghanistan and so on... as well as among older steppic populations of Russia Ukraina?
    or this ANE in South come from later osmosis between all tribes of this vaste area? whatever reality, the former population of tarim bassin is intriguing: Were they partly linked to the so called "Tokharians" before the Indo-Iranians reached these lands?
    what types had they if not asiatic ??? I wait to assimilate other things before to give a thought on this intricated question -
    Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)

    (1) Department of Sociology and Anthropology, California State University at Bakers field, Bakersfield, California 93311-1099, ETATS-UNIS
    (2) School of Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University, Belfast, Northern Ireland BT7 1NN, ROYAUME-UNI

    Résumé / Abstract

    Numerous Bronze Age cemeteries in the oases surrounding the Täklamakan Desert of the Tarim Basin in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, western China, have yielded both mummified and skeletal human remains. A dearth of local antecedents, coupled with woolen textiles and the apparent Western physical appearance of the population, raised questions as to where these people came from. Two hypotheses have been offered by archaeologists to account for the origins of Bronze Age populations of the Tarim Basin. These are the steppe hypothesis and the Bactrian oasis hypothesis. Eight craniometric variables from 25 Aeneolithic and Bronze Age samples, comprising 1,353 adults from the Tarim Basin, the Russo-Kazakh steppe, southern China, Central Asia, Iran, and the Indus Valley, are compared to test which, if either, of these hypotheses are supported by the pattern of phenetic affinities possessed by Bronze Age inhabitants of the Tarim Basin. Craniometric differences between samples are compared with Mahalanobis generalized distance (d2), and patterns of phenetic affinity are assessed with two types of cluster analysis (the weighted pair average linkage method and the neighbor-joining method), multidimensional scaling, and principal coordinates analysis. Results obtained by this analysis provide little support for either the steppe hypothesis or the Bactrian oasis hypothesis. Rather, the pattern of phenetic affinities manifested by Bronze Age inhabitants of the Tarim Basin suggests the presence of a population of unknown origin within the Tarim Basin during the early Bronze Age. After 1200 B.C., this population experienced significant gene flow from highland populations of the Pamirs and Ferghana Valley. These highland populations may include those who later became known as the Saka and who may have served as middlemen facilitating contacts between East (Tarim Basin, China) and West (Bactria, Uzbekistan) along what later became known as the Great Silk Road. Am J Phy
    Revue / Journal Title

    American journal of physical anthropology ISSN 0002-9483
    Source / Source

    2004, vol. 124, no3, pp. 199-222 [24 page(s) (article)] (3 p.3/4)

  5. #105
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    concerning pigmentation, I foind very counterintuitive these publications about ancient people -
    linking a phenotype, with gradual effects like pigmentation, to genotype is a sport!!! unprecise phenotypes assignations explained by very precise genotypings is a bit confusing for me -
    It's hard to me to imagine old "Europeans" living in cold climate for 40000 or 30000 for some of them, having a dark complexion and hairs - at least I believe it was already not a completely dark complexion -
    many factors are confusing: the today evident links between, NOT RUFOSITY, but rather between ligh pigmentation in eyes and hairs - the fact these traits are common among North/Northeastern populations the ones which show the more of "hunter-gatherer" autosomals -
    I repeat the major mutation affecting skin colour among Europoids (Caucasoids) is not the only one, and it is almost independant from the eye/hair colour or poorly lonked to it -but we find other correlations: a set of traits linking LIGHTER SKIN to LIGH HAIR AND LIGHT EYES + a set of traits linking VERY LIGHTER SKIN to VERY LIGHTER HAIR AND VERY LIGHTER EYES - these 2 last "kits" of depigmentation don't seem to me linked to neolithical agriculture nor southeastern caspian populations -
    the 2 blondisms associated to 2 kinds of eyes colour and of skin colour (without speaking about vascularization, different in each case) ask for some answers -
    can we figure out a first mutation (not already identified) affecting HGs linking skin/eye/hair (very slight lightening for skin): brownish skin, middle brown hair, dark green eyes?
    and a later mutation on a close segment of DNA with some effect: the 2 having a cumulative effect:
    this late mutation could produce dark blond upon blackish background and light blond upon brownish background.? it only a school hypothesis but a think a cumulative effect of different mutations upon pigmentation is to imagine to explain the current situation -by the way, the more HG population in Europe are the one with NOT THE MORE OFTEN LIGHT PIGMENTATION as a whole BUT WITH THE LESS RARE VERY LIGHT PIGMENTATION (Finnland, Balts, Estonians, Czechs, Poles, Russians, Belarussians...
    maybe its more complicated yet? I think some of the ligtening mutations became common in the Russian Steppes, affecting almost all the Europeans later, by Indo-European impact - the lighter hues obtained only when the HG factors were present... Just a bet -
    the principal skin mutation had already touched Neolithical people even in Near Eastern and, far more specific to skin and far more effective in decoloration, gained ground all over Europe with mixing, with possible positive effects upon vitamin D fixation??? (here I'm on a foreign ground to me)

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