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Thread: New R1a Paper by Underhill et al. (2014)

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    New R1a Paper by Underhill et al. (2014)

    Supplemental Info

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg201450s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg201450a.html


    Figures and Tables

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450ft.html


    Abstract

    R1a-M420 is one of the most widely spread Y-chromosome haplogroups; however, its substructure within Europe and Asia has remained poorly characterized. Using a panel of 16 244 male subjects from 126 populations sampled across Eurasia, we identified 2923 R1a-M420 Y-chromosomes and analyzed them to a highly granular phylogeographic resolution. Whole Y-chromosome sequence analysis of eight R1a and five R1b individuals suggests a divergence time of ~25 000 (95% CI: 21 300–29 000) years ago and a coalescence time within R1a-M417 of ~5800 (95%CI: 4800–6800) years. The spatial frequency distributions of R1a sub-haplogroups conclusively indicate two major groups, one found primarily in Europe and the other confined to Central and South Asia. Beyond the major European versus Asian dichotomy, we describe several younger sub-haplogroups. Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Supplemental Info

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg201450s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg201450a.html


    Figures and Tables

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450ft.html


    Abstract

    R1a-M420 is one of the most widely spread Y-chromosome haplogroups; however, its substructure within Europe and Asia has remained poorly characterized. Using a panel of 16 244 male subjects from 126 populations sampled across Eurasia, we identified 2923 R1a-M420 Y-chromosomes and analyzed them to a highly granular phylogeographic resolution. Whole Y-chromosome sequence analysis of eight R1a and five R1b individuals suggests a divergence time of ~25 000 (95% CI: 21 300–29 000) years ago and a coalescence time within R1a-M417 of ~5800 (95%CI: 4800–6800) years. The spatial frequency distributions of R1a sub-haplogroups conclusively indicate two major groups, one found primarily in Europe and the other confined to Central and South Asia. Beyond the major European versus Asian dichotomy, we describe several younger sub-haplogroups. Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.
    So, on a simplistic level, we have yDNA "R" Mal'ta in South Central Siberia 22-24,000 years ago, but a coalescence time for Ria-M417 in Iran less than 6,000 years ago?

    We also have a split between R1b and R1a 25,000 years ago.

    Which begs the questions...where were the R1a people and what were they doing during all that time in between...and what explains their dramatic expansion? Was "R" born in Siberia? Did "R" move south from Siberia to Iran? When? Were they hunter gatherers all that time?

    Does their dramatic expansion coincide with their adoption of agriculture, as is usually the case? If the bearers of yDNA "R1a" took up agriculture (and/or pastoralism) 4,000 years BCE, where did it happen, and as part of what culture?

    Also, from the phylogeny, it appears that the "European", "Ashkenazi", and "Asian" branches of R1a are all splits from a prior ancestor. How does that change, or does it, current theories about the "Indo-Europeanization" of Asia? How, in fact, does that impact all the reams of words that have been written about various pre-historical groups and the spread of the Indo-European languages?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So, on a simplistic level, we have yDNA "R" Mal'ta in South Central Siberia 22-24,000 years ago, but a coalescence time for Ria-M417 in Iran less than 6,000 years ago?

    We also have a split between R1b and R1a 25,000 years ago.

    Which begs the questions...where were the R1a people and what were they doing during all that time in between...and what explains their dramatic expansion? Was "R" born in Siberia? Did "R" move south from Siberia to Iran? When? Were they hunter gatherers all that time?

    Does their dramatic expansion coincide with their adoption of agriculture, as is usually the case? If the bearers of yDNA "R1a" took up agriculture (and/or pastoralism) 4,000 years BCE, where did it happen, and as part of what culture?

    Also, from the phylogeny, it appears that the "European", "Ashkenazi", and "Asian" branches of R1a are all splits from a prior ancestor. How does that change, or does it, current theories about the "Indo-Europeanization" of Asia? How, in fact, does that impact all the reams of words that have been written about various pre-historical groups and the spread of the Indo-European languages?
    It looks like they came from Mal'ta area, Siberia. They didn't have many survivors between 25000 years ago and their coalescence from the steppe 5800 years ago.
    They didn't invent agriculture but they domesticated the horse, which made them very competitive to other people, even those who adopted agriculture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So, on a simplistic level, we have yDNA "R" Mal'ta in South Central Siberia 22-24,000 years ago, but a coalescence time for Ria-M417 in Iran less than 6,000 years ago?

    We also have a split between R1b and R1a 25,000 years ago.

    Which begs the questions...where were the R1a people and what were they doing during all that time in between...and what explains their dramatic expansion? Was "R" born in Siberia? Did "R" move south from Siberia to Iran? When? Were they hunter gatherers all that time?

    Does their dramatic expansion coincide with their adoption of agriculture, as is usually the case? If the bearers of yDNA "R1a" took up agriculture (and/or pastoralism) 4,000 years BCE, where did it happen, and as part of what culture?

    Also, from the phylogeny, it appears that the "European", "Ashkenazi", and "Asian" branches of R1a are all splits from a prior ancestor. How does that change, or does it, current theories about the "Indo-Europeanization" of Asia? How, in fact, does that impact all the reams of words that have been written about various pre-historical groups and the spread of the Indo-European languages?
    A coalescence time for M417, not R1a.
    Also, a CT time for divergence of R1* at 25,000 is a bit long given that, as I understand Mal'ta was only M207, which culturally fits an earlier split from P-M45. So basically, I think the math works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post


    ...................
    Beyond the major European versus Asian dichotomy, we describe several younger sub-haplogroups. Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.
    Unless of course the present day population of Iran is made up of people whose ancestors originated elsewhere and who substantially replaced the population in Iran at some point. Wouldn't we need to see a fair bit of old DNA from Iran in order to decide whether its present day population is in any way representative of its population about 5800 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How, in fact, does that impact all the reams of words that have been written about various pre-historical groups and the spread of the Indo-European languages?

    This is a very interesting question.


    There have been some misplaced assumptions about the origin of PIE and what would be considered a serious proposal. They have been mostly driven by a lazy scientists and scholars unwilling to consider unconventional scenarios and Paleolithic Continuity Theorists who are mentally challenged.

    It has also been driven by the Kurgan hypothesis, which ultimately failed to explain the "origin" of PIE, instead focusing too heavily on Bronze age militarism and not explaining how "Component A" and "Component B" aligned to give birth to "C". Gimbutas' theory just sort of fades away in the pre-single grave steppe.

    As Maciamo posted on the Genetics page for R1b, and as I've posted before,
    the best explanation can be found in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic of the Near East.

    As I mentioned before, no other candidate people other than R* can account for the introduction of Pottery in the Near East and West Eurasia.
    Not IJK and not MNO or Q.

    The first farmers were certainly G + H people south of the Transcaucasus, which spread into the Natufian Levant and Anatolia. There, lacking political and military maturity were sometimes unsuccessful in defending settlements and hamlets from raiding by (E, J, T). After sometime, these amalgamated people began spreading agriculture into Europe and North Africa.

    Sometime in the PPNB, must be when Eastern Anatolia and Western Syria were being raided or settled by R peoples from the East. Pottery is one example of the culture they brought, Paternalism is another. I would place Indo-European Cultural beginnings with the PN-Halafian phase in Western Syria and Anatolia. In time, I believe genetics will show this.

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    The journey from Southern Siberia to Anatolia is an easy one I think.

    It can be best explained by the extinction of Megafauna such as the Mammoth and Asian Bison. It was probably these two animals that the first Americans depended on the most (being also derived from P-M45)
    The Siberians drove both to extinction about the same time.

    This slowly drove them to depend on less hardy animals, probably wild cattle and horses, whose genetics they probably improved through hunting management.
    (selective marbeling, calving, utter and calf growth, twining, polling, hoof health and general hardiness
    The smart hunter would have culled his herd for productive bulls and healthy calf weight)

    The combination of two different, yet sophisticated, techological packages in this area is why the late Neolithic exploded from this area across three continents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.
    The article itself is behind a paywall, but as far as I know there are 6 known individuals spread all over the South East Asia who are R1a and 8 or 10 individuals spread over Eastern Europe and Scandinavia who are R1a1. To conclude that the initial route R1a followed was via Iran, I find the evidence rahter curcumstancial. Few people live on the same place their ancestors lived during LGM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How, in fact, does that impact all the reams of words that have been written about various pre-historical groups and the spread of the Indo-European languages?
    Depends on how these (Underhill et al 2014) results correspond to the Andronovo > Karasuk > Tagar > Tachtyk results of R1a1 from Keyser et al 2009; I have not looked at it yet;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    It has also been driven by the Kurgan hypothesis, which ultimately failed to explain the "origin" of PIE, instead focusing too heavily on Bronze age militarism and not explaining how "Component A" and "Component B" aligned to give birth to "C". Gimbutas' theory just sort of fades away in the pre-single grave steppe.
    While whole schools of archeology discounted radiocarbon dating as too imprecise and unreliable, the new tool allowed M.Gimbutas to leapfrog into the 20th c. Only with the 21st c. technology of haplotype allele dating it became clear that archeologists confused two separate developments, a later west-to-east movement of non-Kurgan people with the earlier east-to west movement of the Kurgan people. The history of these movements, separated in time by a millennia, is yet unwritten, but it is already clear that much of M.Gimbutas interpretations will have to be disbanded, while the facts on the ground will remain solidly intact.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    While whole schools of archeology discounted radiocarbon dating as too imprecise and unreliable, the new tool allowed M.Gimbutas to leapfrog into the 20th c. Only with the 21st c. technology of haplotype allele dating it became clear that archeologists confused two separate developments, a later west-to-east movement of non-Kurgan people with the earlier east-to west movement of the Kurgan people. The history of these movements, separated in time by a millennia, is yet unwritten, but it is already clear that much of M.Gimbutas interpretations will have to be disbanded, while the facts on the ground will remain solidly intact.
    Your writing seems to be copied from this site:
    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...ToEuropeEn.htm
    Please post the links of origin of copied materials, otherwise it is plagiarism. Unless you wrote it in first place.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Which begs the questions...where were the R1a people and what were they doing during all that time in between...and what explains their dramatic expansion? Was "R" born in Siberia? Did "R" move south from Siberia to Iran? When? Were they hunter gatherers all that time?
    Domestication of the horse is the only explanation. Climate change explains the southward migration 4000 BC from Siberia into the Middle East, followed by a northward migration 3000 BC. R1b moved into Spain from North Africa and R1a moved through Turkey and Eastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Your writing seems to be copied from this site:
    ......link-....
    Please post the links of origin of copied materials, otherwise it is plagiarism. Unless you wrote it in first place.
    Excuse me please. I was unable to post the link, I have to write 10 post before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    Domestication of the horse is the only explanation. Climate change explains the southward migration 4000 BC from Siberia into the Middle East, followed by a northward migration 3000 BC. R1b moved into Spain from North Africa and R1a moved through Turkey and Eastern Europe.
    The oldest traits for horse domestication are found in northern Kazakhstan in the Botai culture and are dated to ca. 4000 BC. The question is, was R1a among them?

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    New R1a maps (Underhill et al. 2014)


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    We discussed them a lot here:http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...an-split-of-IE

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