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Thread: Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    These maps are only usefull to get a picture of modern genetic relationship, but with our current knowledge of ancient DNA, they are useless to determine an Indo_European signal because "West Asian or Gedrosia" as such didn't exist back than. The new admixture results of Lazaridis are much better for this question and in those, all Northeast Europeans have a significant percentage of Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like component.
    Those descriptions are funny - and not in the Lazaridis paper.

    Kalash is not pure ANE or closest relative of ANE - far from it. R has not much to do with Loschbour either, and N is as common or more common in its closest modern relatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    These maps are only usefull to get a picture of modern genetic relationship, but with our current knowledge of ancient DNA, they are useless to determine an Indo_European signal because "West Asian or Gedrosia" as such didn't exist back than. The new admixture results of Lazaridis are much better for this question and in those, all Northeast Europeans have a significant percentage of Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like component.

    something like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    These maps are only usefull to get a picture of modern genetic relationship, but with our current knowledge of ancient DNA, they are useless to determine an Indo_European signal because "West Asian or Gedrosia" as such didn't exist back than. The new admixture results of Lazaridis are much better for this question and in those, all Northeast Europeans have a significant percentage of Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like component.

    why is 192.1 excluded from the ancient list?

    I know K8 is contaminated and should never be used

    Isn't Karafet lastest paper from a month ago state the P and later R group frpm P formed in south-east asia ?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    R1a movement and tin trade

    I am envisaging quite a number of further write-ups (on chariots, horses, etc.), which I will eventually post, but, to cut a long story short, here the answer to the key question: Why would R1a move from Eastern Anatolia / Northern Iran to Eastern Europe via BMAC (Afghanistan/ Turkmenistan), instead of taking a shortcut through the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes? The answer is simple:

    Bronze age Mesopotamia and Eastern Mediterranean needed tin, which is scarce in the region. There are a few smaller tin mines in the Taurus mountains in Eastern Anatolia that appear to have been exploited during the early Bronze Age (http://www.academia.edu/1581326/Stra...atolia_Updated), but they are unlikely to have covered more than a fraction of the demand. Consequently, archaeologists have for a long time been looking at Central Asia as possible tin supply source (http://www.penn.museum/documents/pub.../Cleuziou.pdf) Finds of Lapis Lazuli from NE Afghanistan in Mesopotamia and Egypt evidence trade links that most likely already commenced during the Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_lazuli).

    Aside from Western and NE Afghanistan, relevant tin concentrations that are supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age occur on the northern rim of the Kopet Dag range, which runs along today's border between Iran and Turkmenistan. We are roughly talking a north-westerly line from Herat (West Afghanistan) via Ashgabat to Türkmenbashi on the Caspian Sea shore here. At the centre of this belt is the site of Namazga-Tepe, whose culture is sometimes regarded as a predecessor, sometimes as integral part of the BMAC complex. There are clear archaeological traces of chalcolithic cultural and population incursion from north-central Iran into the area, while the nature of this incursion (violent or peaceful-assimilative) is still being disputed. Somewhat later, around 2,100 BC, the Kopet Dag (western BMAC) culture develops links with the Andronovo culture in the Southern Ural, but possibly not only to there. The following maps, extracted from this excellent presentation http://www.archatlas.org/workshop09/...-wilkinson.php display cost-distance maps for Namazga/ BMAC tin exports. The mines themselves are indicated by red dots. The whiter an area, the more likely it is to have been importing tin from Namazga / BMAC. Note especially the south-eastern expansion through the Hindukush, with the addition of new tin mines in Central/ Southern Afghanistan and the Punjab.
    Attachment 6502
    Attachment 6503

    While I am at tin: There are 3-4 major European tin regions that are known or supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age: Cornwall, Britanny, NW Iberia (Galicia), and the Erzgebirge / Sudetian mountains. The Celtic link to the first three regions is obvious; the fourth region is in the area where the Globular Amphora Culture, possibly Central Europe's first IE culture, developed.
    That leaves us with the Tocharians in the Tarim basin. Strabo mentions tin import from the Tarim, and the issue is briefly discussed here http://books.google.de/books?id=c9UU...0Tarim&f=false. An in-depth geological study notes http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocum...oorder2013.pdf
    The Early Permian Muruntau district and the other prominent gold deposits in the South Tianshan are clear examples because with their dominating arsenic and tungsten contents they compare directly with the gold deposits of the French Massif Central. With their tungsten, tin and copper both districts compare with the tin-copper deposits in Cornwall.
    There is another major tin belt that is known to have been exploited in antiquity, and is accounting for most of today's tin production. It runs from Yunnan in SW China through the Malaysian peninsula down to Eastern Sumatra. If you would like to get control over these mines, or at least their possible export routes towards the Middle East and the Mediterrenean, where would you go? Down the Ganges, and then further along the North-Eastern tributaries, especially the Brahmaputra, doesn't seem a bad idea. Now, check the R1a-M780 distribution map ... For R1a-Z2125, note how the largest concentration occurs between the tin and Lapis Lazuli mines in NE Afghanistan, the Muruntau ore district in central Uzbekistan that is mentioned in the quote above, and along the Tianshan mountains in Uzbekistan and southern Kasachstan.


    The Z93* cluster in the Altai, finally, seems to compare well to the late 3rd/ early 2nd millennium BC tin & copper mines that have recently been discovered there (http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/?page_id=76357, in German) .


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times
    Last edited by FrankN; 21-06-14 at 17:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    I am envisaging quite a number of further write-ups (on chariots, horses, etc.), which I will eventually post, but, to cut a long story short, here the answer to the key question: Why would R1a move from Eastern Anatolia / Northern Iran to Eastern Europe via BMAC (Afghanistan/ Turkmenistan), instead of taking a shortcut through the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes? The answer is simple:

    Bronze age Mesopotamia and Eastern Mediterranean needed tin, which is scarce in the region. There are a few smaller tin mines in the Taurus mountains in Eastern Anatolia that appear to have been exploited during the early Bronze Age (http://www.academia.edu/1581326/Stra...atolia_Updated), but they are unlikely to have covered more than a fraction of the demand. Consequently, archaeologists have for a long time been looking at Central Asia as possible tin supply source (http://www.penn.museum/documents/pub.../Cleuziou.pdf) Finds of Lapis Lazuli from NE Afghanistan in Mesopotamia and Egypt evidence trade links that most likely already commenced during the Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_lazuli).

    Aside from Western and NE Afghanistan, relevant tin concentrations that are supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age occur on the northern rim of the Kopet Dag range, which runs along today's border between Iran and Turkmenistan. We are roughly talking a north-westerly line from Herat (West Afghanistan) via Ashgabat to Türkmenbashi on the Caspian Sea shore here. At the centre of this belt is the site of Namazga-Tepe, whose culture is sometimes regarded as a predecessor, sometimes as integral part of the BMAC complex. There are clear archaeological traces of chalcolithic cultural and population incursion from north-central Iran into the area, while the nature of this incursion (violent or peaceful-assimilative) is still being disputed. Somewhat later, around 2,100 BC, the Kopet Dag (western BMAC) culture develops links with the Andronovo culture in the Southern Ural, but possibly not only to there. The following maps, extracted from this excellent presentation http://www.archatlas.org/workshop09/...-wilkinson.php display cost-distance maps for Namazga/ BMAC tin exports. The mines themselves are indicated by red dots. The whiter an area, the more likely it is to have been importing tin from Namazga / BMAC. Note especially the south-eastern expansion through the Hindukush, with the addition of new tin mines in Central/ Southern Afghanistan and the Punjab.
    Attachment 6501
    Attachment 6500

    While I am at tin: There are 3-4 major European tin regions that are known or supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age: Cornwall, Britanny, NW Iberia (Galicia), and the Erzgebirge / Sudetian mountains. The Celtic link to the first three regions is obvious; the fourth region is in the area where the Globular Amphora Culture, possibly Central Europe's first IE culture, developed.
    That leaves us with the Tocharians in the Tarim basin. Strabo mentions tin import from the Tarim, and the issue is briefly discussed here http://books.google.de/books?id=c9UU...0Tarim&f=false. An in-depth geological study notes http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocum...oorder2013.pdf

    There is another major tin belt that is known to have been exploited in antiquity, and is accounting for most of today's tin production. It runs from Yunnan in SW China through the Malaysian peninsula down to Eastern Sumatra. If you would like to get control over these mines, or at least their possible export routes towards the Middle East and the Mediterrenean, where would you go? Down the Ganges, and then further along the North-Eastern tributaries, especially the Brahmaputra, doesn't seem a bad idea. Now, check the R1a-M780 distribution map ... For R1a-Z2125, note how the largest concentration occurs between the tin and Lapis Lazuli mines in NE Afghanistan, the Muruntau ore district in central Uzbekistan that is mentioned in the quote above, and along the Tianshan mountains in Uzbekistan and southern Kasachstan.


    The Z93* cluster in the Altai, finally, seems to compare well to the late 3rd/ early 2nd millennium BC tin & copper mines that have recently been discovered there (http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/?page_id=76357, in German) .


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times
    Interesting point of view. Migrations and settlements of people dictated by need for bronze, and not necessary by need for food and land. I'm not sure if I entirely agree, I must say, but definitely something to consider strongly.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    There is another major tin belt that is known to have been exploited in antiquity, and is accounting for most of today's tin production. It runs from Yunnan in SW China through the Malaysian peninsula down to Eastern Sumatra. If you would like to get control over these mines, or at least their possible export routes towards the Middle East and the Mediterrenean, where would you go? Down the Ganges, and then further along the North-Eastern tributaries, especially the Brahmaputra, doesn't seem a bad idea. Now, check the R1a-M780 distribution map ... For R1a-Z2125, note how the largest concentration occurs between the tin and Lapis Lazuli mines in NE Afghanistan, the Muruntau ore district in central Uzbekistan that is mentioned in the quote above, and along the Tianshan mountains in Uzbekistan and southern Kasachstan.


    The Z93* cluster in the Altai, finally, seems to compare well to the late 3rd/ early 2nd millennium BC tin & copper mines that have recently been discovered there (http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/?page_id=76357, in German) .


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times
    I found it a bit strange that people which, according my theory, would cross most of Eurasia for control of tin mines should stop just west of what today is the largest tin producing area in the world, namely Gejiu/ Kokiu, near the middle Red River in Yunnan in SW China. So I looked a bit more into the development of bronze technology in East and Southeast Asia. There appears to be a consensus emerging that bronze technology spread into NE China from the West, especially with the Seima-Turbino phenomenon that evolved around the Altai (see my second map in the quote above). Another route that has been established is from Yunnan, and more specifically Dali district in West-Central Yunnan, towards Vietnam, Thailand and ultimately Malaysia and Indonesia. The linkage of these two routes, however, is still obscure, as the Central Chinese plain has obviously been by-passed (http://sino-platonic.org/complete/sp...metallurgy.pdf, p.6).

    Especially the Dian Kingdom that evolved in Yunnan before the region became part of the Han Empire had developed a sophisticated bronze culture that, however, doesn't really appear to display Central Asian influence. Instead - well, judge by yourself:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Kingdom

    And then there is the location from where bronze technology started its course into SE Asia - the upper valley of the Red River, in the administrative district of Dali, home to the Bai or Baip people, an ethnonym that means "white". I guess anybody with a bit of linguistic knowledge knows what kind of evidence I am trying to build up here. However, before going any further: Is anybody aware of DNA studies for Yunnan province, especially among the ethnic minorities, e.g. the Bai, in West Yunnan? Any R1a found there?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    I found it a bit strange that people which, according my theory, would cross most of Eurasia for control of tin mines should stop just west of what today is the largest tin producing area in the world, namely Gejiu/ Kokiu, near the middle Red River in Yunnan in SW China. So I looked a bit more into the development of bronze technology in East and Southeast Asia. There appears to be a consensus emerging that bronze technology spread into NE China from the West, especially with the Seima-Turbino phenomenon that evolved around the Altai (see my second map in the quote above). Another route that has been established is from Yunnan, and more specifically Dali district in West-Central Yunnan, towards Vietnam, Thailand and ultimately Malaysia and Indonesia. The linkage of these two routes, however, is still obscure, as the Central Chinese plain has obviously been by-passed (http://sino-platonic.org/complete/sp...metallurgy.pdf, p.6).

    Especially the Dian Kingdom that evolved in Yunnan before the region became part of the Han Empire had developed a sophisticated bronze culture that, however, doesn't really appear to display Central Asian influence. Instead - well, judge by yourself:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Kingdom

    And then there is the location from where bronze technology started its course into SE Asia - the upper valley of the Red River, in the administrative district of Dali, home to the Bai or Baip people, an ethnonym that means "white". I guess anybody with a bit of linguistic knowledge knows what kind of evidence I am trying to build up here. However, before going any further: Is anybody aware of DNA studies for Yunnan province, especially among the ethnic minorities, e.g. the Bai, in West Yunnan? Any R1a found there?
    Well N and O hagplogroup went north-east from northern India .................N went north then went west to Finland and O went north and East to Japan .................both are K in origin

    there are plenty of long distant migrations

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    O went south from Pamir Mountains to Tibet then followed rivers to India and Vietnam then went northeast to China. There are O2 in Bengal and east India and whole of Southeast Asia. From China O went to Japan. There are few O2 or O3 in Siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    O went south from Pamir Mountains to Tibet then followed rivers to India and Vietnam then went northeast to China. There are O2 in Bengal and east India and whole of Southeast Asia. From China O went to Japan. There are few O2 or O3 in Siberia.
    are you sure about N and O in the pamir mountains ?

    when K was in gedrosia and left behind T and L and went to Malaysia to form P .................N and O must have also been in Gedrosia

    You scenario only makes sense if K was originally from the pamir mountains

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    I found it a bit strange that people which, according my theory, would cross most of Eurasia for control of tin mines should stop just west of what today is the largest tin producing area in the world, namely Gejiu/ Kokiu, near the middle Red River in Yunnan in SW China. So I looked a bit more into the development of bronze technology in East and Southeast Asia. There appears to be a consensus emerging that bronze technology spread into NE China from the West, especially with the Seima-Turbino phenomenon that evolved around the Altai (see my second map in the quote above). Another route that has been established is from Yunnan, and more specifically Dali district in West-Central Yunnan, towards Vietnam, Thailand and ultimately Malaysia and Indonesia. The linkage of these two routes, however, is still obscure, as the Central Chinese plain has obviously been by-passed (http://sino-platonic.org/complete/sp...metallurgy.pdf, p.6).

    Especially the Dian Kingdom that evolved in Yunnan before the region became part of the Han Empire had developed a sophisticated bronze culture that, however, doesn't really appear to display Central Asian influence. Instead - well, judge by yourself:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Kingdom

    And then there is the location from where bronze technology started its course into SE Asia - the upper valley of the Red River, in the administrative district of Dali, home to the Bai or Baip people, an ethnonym that means "white". I guess anybody with a bit of linguistic knowledge knows what kind of evidence I am trying to build up here. However, before going any further: Is anybody aware of DNA studies for Yunnan province, especially among the ethnic minorities, e.g. the Bai, in West Yunnan? Any R1a found there?
    I have no idea of Yunnan haplogroups, but this art is amazing!!! Is this bronze or copper?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have no idea of Yunnan haplogroups, but this art is amazing!!! Is this bronze or copper?
    According to Wikipedia, it is bronze, 2nd -1st century BC. Apparently, it used to be a bronze war drum (first specimens of which are found dating back to the 12th century BC) that has been turned into a cowry shell container. For that purpose, the top of the drum has been removed and replaced by the sculptured lid. The burial where it has been found must have belonged to a quite wealthy and influential person, possibly the king.

    Otherwise: I have noted that the attachments to my post #279 don't seem to load, even though they show up fine on my computer when I try to edit the post. The first attachment has now been fixed and should be accessible (even though it doesn't display as thumbnail). With the second one, I still have upload problems (and it is not upload space, that should still be sufficient). Maybe one of the admins could look a bit into the technical stuff and sort out that attachment mess (which I am not experiencing the first time)..

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    According to Wikipedia, it is bronze, 2nd -1st century BC. Apparently, it used to be a bronze war drum (first specimens of which are found dating back to the 12th century BC) that has been turned into a cowry shell container. For that purpose, the top of the drum has been removed and replaced by the sculptured lid. The burial where it has been found must have belonged to a quite wealthy and influential person, possibly the king.

    Otherwise: I have noted that the attachments to my post #279 don't seem to load, even though they show up fine on my computer when I try to edit the post. The first attachment has now been fixed and should be accessible (even though it doesn't display as thumbnail). With the second one, I still have upload problems (and it is not upload space, that should still be sufficient). Maybe one of the admins could look a bit into the technical stuff and sort out that attachment mess (which I am not experiencing the first time)..
    293? I can see them fine. To really look into inner working of this site you need to PM Maciamo.

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    O..k., the second attachment to post 279 is now also up and working, but again without thumbnail. As some people here may not click links, let me repeat the relating text and post the maps in full size (strangely, once pictures have been uploaded to Eupedia, I can embed them like any other public image)

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    Aside from Western and NE Afghanistan, relevant tin concentrations that are supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age occur on the northern rim of the Kopet Dag range, which runs along today's border between Iran and Turkmenistan. We are roughly talking a north-westerly line from Herat (West Afghanistan) via Ashgabat to Türkmenbashi on the Caspian Sea shore here. At the centre of this belt is the site of Namazga-Tepe, whose culture is sometimes regarded as a predecessor, sometimes as integral part of the BMAC complex. There are clear archaeological traces of chalcolithic cultural and population incursion from north-central Iran into the area, while the nature of this incursion (violent or peaceful-assimilative) is still being disputed. Somewhat later, around 2,100 BC, the Kopet Dag (western BMAC) culture develops links with the Andronovo culture in the Southern Ural, but possibly not only to there. The following maps, extracted from this excellent presentation http://www.archatlas.org/workshop09/...-wilkinson.php display cost-distance maps for Namazga/ BMAC tin exports. The mines themselves are indicated by red dots. The whiter an area, the more likely it is to have been importing tin from Namazga / BMAC. Note especially the south-eastern expansion through the Hindukush, with the addition of new tin mines in Central/ Southern Afghanistan and the Punjab.


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    NOP split from K. There lots of H and L in India. O2 is mostly in Eastern India - Bengal so they must have come down from the Himalayas down the rivers Brahmaputra, Irrawady, Mekong and Yangtse Kiang and Yellow rivers.

    From the haplogroup distribution NOP must have been in the north near the Pamir mountains. There is no O2 in west India or very little.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175
    Last edited by oriental; 22-06-14 at 23:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Can we see Z282 as Corded Ware culture and Z93 as Indo-Iranian?

    It could indicate Kazakhstan as Center of Iranic tribes before expansion to the South? South to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.
    IE cultures in the South were Yaz culture and Swat culture these are Iron age cultures.

    (Ancestor of) Z93 and Z282 were in Kelteminar culture(Kazahstan Uzbekistan),
    Z282 migrated towards Pit–Comb Ware culture and later absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...p-did-they-had

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    IE cultures in the South were Yaz culture and Swat culture these are Iron age cultures.

    (Ancestor of) Z93 and Z282 were in Kelteminar culture(Kazahstan Uzbekistan),
    Z282 migrated towards Pit–Comb Ware culture and later absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...p-did-they-had
    Z282 should be found in Yamna culture. If Pit-Comb culture was HG, they didn't mix well with agricultural Corded Ware. Pit-Comb could have been absorbed but their genetic imprint would have been minimal. I doubt that Pit-Comb was rich in Z282. Hopefully we will know soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Z282 should be found in Yamna culture. If Pit-Comb culture was HG, they didn't mix well with agricultural Corded Ware. Pit-Comb could have been absorbed but their genetic imprint would have been minimal. I doubt that Pit-Comb was rich in Z282. Hopefully we will know soon.
    Yamna is Proto-Indo-Iranian(or Indo-Greek) I doubt that Yamna had lots of Z282

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    Using recent genetic data, user Tmenable presented his simple yet beautiful observation here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Corded Ware individual I0104, age 2473 - 2348 BCE, is M417 - which is ancestral to 99% of modern R1a (including Z93 and CTS 4385).

    He lived 4350 - 4500 years ago. And according to Underhill 2014, the R-M417 has an estimated TMRCA of 4800 - 6800 years ago, average of 5000.

    While according to Haak 2015 it has an estiated TMRCA of 5800 years ago.

    Anyway, our M417 from Corded Ware lived between 300 and 2500 years after the common ancestor of 99% of modern R1a.

    Moreover, that hunter-gatherer from Karelia from 7000 - 7500 years ago (5000 - 5500 BCE) is ancestral to M417 !!!

    So it seems very probable that common ancestor for 99% of all R1a lived in Europe somewhere between Finland-Russia and East Germany.

    Let's also check Y-DNA from steppe / nomadic cultures, discovered to date:

    Yamnaya - R1b
    =============
    Corded Ware - R1a
    Tocharians - R1a (and Tocharian R1a is M417, but not Z93)
    Andronovo - R1a
    Scythians - R1a
    More things pointing to Steppe, East Europe and North West Asia, being the birthplace of modern R1a clades (also R1b clades as per recent paper) and at the same time being the initial place of IE expansion.

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    And something more:

    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...1182026AAfFxuH

    (...) the original Indo-European homeland appears to have been somewhere between the Baltic Sea and the Ural Mountains. Almost in the same region as the original Finno-Ugrian homeland. (...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by polako View Post
    There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. ..............
    Next set of questions.
    How long has R1a been in Poland/Russia and or Steppe region 10k? 20k?
    Where will oldest samples come from :)
    H. event.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Next set of questions.
    How long has R1a been in Poland/Russia and or Steppe region 10k? 20k?
    Where will oldest samples come from :)
    I thought we were talking about IE who existed 5-4kya. Why should we go 10 or 20k looking for their markers?

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    I think it is a good question nevertheless. Where did R1a came from to arrive in Corded Ware? From Dniepr-Donets? From Sredny Stog?
    From where did it arrive to Dniepr-Donets?

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