Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[Silesian]

That's ok, because we are not talking about local population replacement, but only about IE invasion and ruling of this area for over 2,000 years. In this time period the invaders managed to mix about 10% of their Y haplogroup to the local pool. Means more cultural influence than genetic.

I'm not sure about R1b. Some might belong to much earlier R1b tribes movements, and some to IE Hittites? Or maybe it was Z93 people who picked up some R1b tribes and made them the first R1b IEs?

If we conjecture that we are talking about a time frame of roughly 200+/- generations, from the start of the migrations from PIE regions; and we have your theory of an elite leaving behind roughly 10% descendants as in the case Z93 and Medes, in Northwest Iran.

Which branches of R1a [Z-282, Z-284, Z-93 ,M-458, M-558, Z-2125, M780] would you attribute to the spread of Indo-European languages.

Armenians_
Phrygians_
Hittites_
Luwians_
Greek_
Albanian_

 

[LeBrok]

If we conjecture that we are talking about a time frame of roughly 200+/- generations, from the start of the migrations from PIE regions; and we have your theory of an elite leaving behind roughly 10% descendants as in the case Z93 and Medes, in Northwest Iran.

To be clear Z93 wasn't only haplogroup of Indo-Iranians. There were additional R1a subclades and perhaps substantial J2a, and few other early farmers haplogroups in the mix. However it looks like Z93 was a dominant one, or at least the one we can identify Indo-Iranians with, because it belongs only to them (in origin at least).
So, if Z93 is at 10% level in Iran now, the full Indo-Iranian Y contingent might be around 20%. Also taking under consideration that it took them about 1,000 years to get their, they might have picked up substantial proportions of other haplogroups (turning them into IIs) when they got to Iran. In this case the full impact of Indo Iranians might be at 30% on local/aboriginal Iranian population.
I know there are lots of might and perhaps, but at least I know we have to take many unknowns into consideration too, till the dust settles in the future.

Which branches of R1a [Z-282, Z-284, Z-93 ,M-458, M-558, Z-2125, M780] would you attribute to the spread of Indo-European languages.

Armenians_
Phrygians_
Hittites_
Luwians_
Greek_
Albanian_

Using this graph, Z645-Z647 and anything below it would be IE in origin.

 

[Ricardo]

There was also some back migration of R1a into the Iranian Plateau and Kurdistan. The back migration happened mostly with the Parthians and Central Asian Scythians.

True proto-Iranians were an admix between J2a and R1a.

Also the Ancient Iranian types of J1 that evolved in that region. I think now with the Y DNA Full Genome sequencing we are going to easily detect the proper SNPs. Some of the basal types of R1a and J1 and J2 and perhaps other haplogroups will be identified with the Ancient Iranian gene pool in the Iranian Plateau. I think R1a1a1 boomed as agriculturalists in places like Eastern Europe and Pakistan-Northern India just like types of R1b expanded with agriculture, metals, lactose and light pigmentation in the Atlantic Western Europe in relatively recent times. The key origin in Iran and Eastern Anatolia will be related to the other haplogroups as I have been saying in the case of a big divide between Iranian types of J1 and Semitic types of J1.

 

[Goga]

If you think the later invasions from central Asia were examples of "back migration", perhaps you can show us the ancient DNA evidence to confirm that.

Because as we can read according to this paper R1a* was born in Kurdistan. In Kurdistan we can find ALL kind of R1a. From the more recent East European TYPES (from Cimmerians??) to recent Central Asian types (from Parthians). So there was a BACK-migration of R1a into Kurdistan! http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html
.

 

[Goga]

This Indo-European migration/expansion model (of the Anatolian hypothesis) does not reflect any of the actual Archaeological complexes and their continuity; And that is largely the problem with the Anatolian hypothesis;

George Erdosy - The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (1995)
This hypothesis fits the archaeological evidence of the Pontic-Caspian steppes well, exhibiting an unbroken continuity of very similar cultures from the Early Bronze Age to the Iron Age as follows: Pit Grave (Yamnaya) culture c. 3500-2800 B.C. > Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture (Gimbutas 1956: 74-89) c. 2800-2000 B.C. > Timber Grave and Andronovo cultures, the former in the Volga steppes in 2000-800 B.C. and the latter in the southern Urals, Kazakhstan, and southern Siberia in 1800-900 B.C. > Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.. If the Pit grave culture was still Proto-Indo-European, the Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture was probably Proto-Aryan.

Edwin Bryant - The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture (Oxford Uni. press / 2003)

So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality);

Anatolian model I posted previously can be also considered as a migration of R1a*. R1b took ANOTHER migration through the Caucasus, as we all know. Maykop culture PREDATES ALL Pit Grave (Yamnaya) cultures...

 

[Goga]

So, is there any particular reason that the R1a folk migrated to the Russian steppes by going around the Caspian Sea, rather than just going north before turning west? I think going straight north would have been a much shorter route. And what about all the historical and archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded the area that is modern Iran from Central Asia more than two millennia after the time period we're talking about? I personally think the current genetic makeup of Iran tells us nothing much about who was living there 5800 years before present. If you think the later invasions from central Asia were examples of "back migration", perhaps you can show us the ancient DNA evidence to confirm that.

It was not an invasion of original the R1a into the Steppes, but an unharmed settlement of Semi Nomads in Central Asia. Also, Medes NEVER invaded Persia or Kurdistan. The Medes INVADED Mesopotamia FROM Kurdistan Zagros Mountains. Homeland of the Medes was Zagros, and from Zagros they INVADED Babylon

 

[Goga]

One of the back migrations around 4,000 BP of R1a was migration of Indo-Iranians, like Medes to Kurdistan from the Steppe, lead by Z93, the much younger clade of R1a, the Indo European people.
What I'm saying is that your R1a* is much older, probably native to the area, and none Indo-European.
It also means that IE Medes didn't replace local population in a substantial way, but conquered them and gave them IE language and culture.

PS. What is your avatar about, Illuminati?

Back migration of likely Parthians from Central Asia. There’s no proof at all that the Medes were from Central Asia! Also, the Parthians didn't replaced the local population of the Medes. The Medes belonged most likely to old types of R1a* from Sumerians, J2a and maybe some other paternal lineages. It's IMPOSSIBLE that the Medes only belonged to just 1 haplogroup! My avatar is a picture of the SUN. As an Yezidi Kurd (religion) I'm a SUN worshipper.
y

 

[Goga]

I find it interesting there are no shaded areas in the region of extinct Median language.




http://multitree.linguistlist.org/codes/xme

Kurds speak a language close to the Avestan. Avestan was close to the Sanscrit (proto-Indic). So we can consider Avestan as a language very close to proto-Iranic (proto-Aryan). Kurdish is one of the 'purest' Iranic languages that are left. Like ALL other ancient Aryan and proto-Aryan languages Kurdish has an ERGATIVE CONSTRUCTION. Avestan was also an ERGATIVE language. The Medes who lived 3000 years ago, spoke most probaly Avestan or an Avestan dialect. Kurdish can be a language of the Medes. According to some ancient Armenian writers Kurdish dialect, Kurmanji, was actually spoken by the ancient Medes. So Kurdish language = Median language.

 

[LeBrok]

Kurds speak a language close to the Avestan. Avestan was close to the Sanscrit (proto-Indic). So we can consider Avstan as a language very close to proto-Iranic (proto-Aryan). Kurdish is one of the 'purest' Iranic. languages that are left. Like ALL other Aryan and proto-Aryan languages Kurrdish has ERGATIVE CONSTRUCTION. Avestan was also an ERGATIVE language. The Medes who lived 3000 years ago, spoke most probaly Avestan or an Avestan dialect. Kurdish can be a language of the Medes. According to some Armenian writers Kurdish dialect, Kurmanji, was actually spoken by the ancient Medes. So Kurdish language = Median language !

I think you realize that Indo-Iranian language came there from central Asia and wasn't ancestral language of your ancestors who gave you R1a*?

 

[Goga]

Also the Ancient Iranian types of J1 that evolved in that region. I think now with the Y DNA Full Genome sequencing we are going to easily detect the proper SNPs. Some of the basal types of R1a and J1 and J2 and perhaps other haplogroups will be identified with the Ancient Iranian gene pool in the Iranian Plateau. I think R1a1a1 boomed as agriculturalists in places like Eastern Europe and Pakistan-Northern India just like types of R1b expanded with agriculture, metals, lactose and light pigmentation in the Atlantic Western Europe in relatively recent times. The key origin in Iran and Eastern Anatolia will be related to the other haplogroups as I have been saying in the case of a big divide between Iranian types of J1 and Semitic types of J1.

Yeah, what you're saying does make sense. Iranic (Kurdish, Ossetian, Persian etc.) J1 is very different from Semitic (Arabian, Assyrian etc.) J1. I'm 100% sure that the ancient Iranians and even proto-Iranians belonged to more than 1 haplogroup. I do also strongly believe that proto-Iranian language was most llike evolved among J2a people!

 

[Goga]

I think you realize that Indo-Iranian language came there from central Asia and wasn't ancestral language of your ancestors who gave you R1a*?

Indo-Iranian (proto-Aryan) and ancient Iranic (Aryan) languages were ERGATIVE languages. Other Indo-European languages are NOT ERGATIVE at all. Ergativity among language of the (proto-)Aryans evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau or Caucasus, period! And NOT at places where ERGATIVITY doesn't exist. Also 'my' R1a is actually ancestral to ALL R1a!

 

[Goga]

so, haplogroup P which was around Tajikstan went to your probable area and became R ...or
R formed from P around tajikstan , went to your probable area and became R1a there .....or
went to your probable after becoming R1a in and around tajikstan

R* became firstly R2* and R1*. R1* became later R1a* and R1b*. R1a* evolved at the same place as R1b* evolved. And R1b* was not evolved in Tajikistan, but somewhere on the Iranian Plateau...

 

[LeBrok]

R* became firstly R2* and R1*. R1* became later R1a* and R1b*. R1a* evolved at the same place as R1b* evolved. And R1b* was not evolved in Tajikistan, but somewhere on the Iranian Plateau...

Wrong. Mal'ta boy 24ya was R and lived in Siberia. Even back then R was spread all over west/central Asia from South to North. We have no clue where R1 was created, most likely anywhere through West/central/south Asia. We can assume that at the end of a day, hunter-gatherers of R1 were roaming freely through all west/central/south Asia. In this case R1a might have happened around Kurdistan as the paper suggest, but R1b might have happened anywhere else R1 ancestor was available through west/center/south Asia.

One thing is certain that R1a and R1b didn't evolve in same place or even close. If it was the case these two haplogroups would have been highly mixed together. As we know that there are many places where R1a is high and R1b is very low, and many places where R1b is very high and R1a is almost non existent. For most of their existence from 20ya till around 7ya they never or almost never met and mixed.

Here is a question, just to make sure if I got your fantazy right:
Are you saying that in this "pure" Kurdistan area and population, J2a and R1a and R1b existed together from beginning, and was always part of indigenous/original population, and that they always spoke, and even were creators, of Indo-Iranian language?

 

[Goga]

Here is a question, just to make sure if I got your fantazy right:
Are you saying that in this "pure" Kurdistan area and population, J2a and R1a and R1b existed together from beginning, and was always part of indigenous/original population, and that they always spoke, and even were creators, of Indo-Iranian language?

No, maybe R1* evolved somewhere in Central Asia, because there's also R2* in that area.

According to Maciamo R1b evolved somewhere around the modern-day Turkmenistan. He is maybe right! I never claimed that R1b* is from Kurdistan. All the evidences are leading to Turkmenistan (East-SouthEast of the Caspian Sea.)

R1a* can be also from the eastern parts of Iranian Plateau, because Turkmenistan IS partly on the Iranian Plateau. And Turkmenistan is next to Albors and not really that far from the Zagros.

I'm just saying that J2a influenced the creation of the proto-Iranic language. Because there's ERGATIVITY construction among Caucasian languages in North & South Caucasus. According to me ERGATIVITY was part of J2a folks. They both influenced Caucasian and proto-Iranic (Aryan) languages. And J2a is also from Zagros, right?

 

[LeBrok]

I'm just saying that J2a influenced the creation of the proto-Iranic language. Because there's ERGATIVITY construction among Caucasian languages in North & South Caucasus. According to me ERGATIVITY was part of J2a folks. They both influenced Caucasian and proto-Iranic (Aryan) languages. And J2a is also from Zagros, right?

I have no problem with influencing. Everywhere you look IE was influenced by local substrates with different pronunciations, various grammar, etc.

 

[Silesian]

No, maybe R1* evolved somewhere in Central Asia, because there's also R2* in that area.

According to Maciamo R1b evolved somewhere around the modern-day Turkmenistan. He is maybe right! I never claimed that R1b* is from Kurdistan. All the evidences are leading to Turkmenistan (East-SouthEast of the Caspian Sea.)

R1a* can be also from the eastern parts of Iranian Plateau, because Turkmenistan IS partly on the Iranian Plateau. And Turkmenistan is next to Albors and not really that far from the Zagros.

I'm just saying that J2a influenced the creation of the proto-Iranic language. Because there's ERGATIVITY construction among Caucasian languages in North & South Caucasus. According to me ERGATIVITY was part of J2a folks. They both influenced Caucasian and proto-Iranic (Aryan) languages. And J2a is also from Zagros, right?

R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.^[6] However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[17

Kurdistan Kurd 1.7 R1b-343*

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.ca/

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

Haplogroup R1b?
3x R1-M173 (Zaza from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
4x R1-M173 (Kurmanji from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
5x R1-M173 (Kurds from Turkmenistan in Nasidze et al., 2005; originally used in Wells et al., 2001)

Haplogroup R1b
2x R1b-M343 (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
1x R1b-M343 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
13x R1b-M343 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup

 

[Goga]

I have no problem with influencing. Everywhere you look IE was influenced by local substrates with different pronunciations, various grammar, etc.

By influencing, I do really mean helping to form a new kind of language (dialect). And since J2a participated in evolution of proto-Iranic (Aryan) language (dialect) this process took place somewhere where there's J2a. Therefore I'm telling you that at LEAST J2a was also part of the proto-Iranic (Aryan) people. And the only 2 places where ANCIENT J2a & R1a coalesced are either Kurdistan Zagros Mountains or SouthCentral Asia. Or somewhere in BETWEEN. And NOT in the Steppes! So the Medes who invaded Babylon came NOT from the Steppes, but from Zagros (Iranian Plateau)! Capisce ???

 

[Goga]

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

Thank you VERY much. Especially for this : "J2-M172 is the main Iranian haplogroup (22.5%), almost entirely (92.9%) represented by J2a-M410 sub-clades."

 

[Nobody1]

Paper says that Y DNA was very degraded to infer anything more than R1a, but "people on the net say" that CTS4385 marker discovered predicts L664.

That would make the sense - great info;
But i really still hope they would attempt more/specific examinations on all those corpses again just for a more clearer picture;

I have a hunch that these are R1a hunter-gatherers who move to central Europe before IE Corded-Ware farmers.

Been a while since i have looked at it but this is an add on to Haak et al 2008 about the Archaeological nature of the (Corded-ware) Eulau site and the Burials;
http://www.academia.edu/649220/The_...e_Multiple_Burials_from_Saxony-Anhalt_Germany

I actually suspect the males (father/sons: R1a) to be the Indo-European wave but the females from a more previous population; The strontium isotope analyses shows the males sedentary of this settlement but the females to be from elsewhere;

'This indicates the practice of exogamy and patrilocality; the females moved to the location of the males, where they had their offspring.'

 

[Nobody1]

Northern-Caucasus road was mentioned in this thread few times, but I thing that this is very unlikely to be road for any population movement. In this study Underhill confirmed that the oldest subclades of R1a are found in near east. The same findings one can find in supplementary info from Myres et al.(2010). From Myres we know that R1a* is found not only in Middle East but also in France (Alpes de Huete-Provence) 2/31 and in Southern Italy 1/124. Furthermore the results from R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project suggest that R1a moved from Middle East to Western Europe( Italy, France, Germany, British Isles) and then to its eastern part, where about 5800 YBP it gave birth to majority of modern R1a lineages.
View attachment 6331
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.

I do not doubt and def. agree with the study (Underhill et al 2014) that the 'initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey' and that would also not exclude a trans-Caucasus migration of downstream M417; I havent read the entire study only the snippets and what was provided in post#1 but i agree with Underhill et al 2010 that the Indo-Europeans are def. not the sole source and stock of the R1a distribution;

However as for the route to Europe;
I am sticking to what i said in the other thread and that its always the corpses that do the talking; The first R1a in Europe is (so far) Eulau (Corded-ware) i.e. from the Steppes than there are the corpses of Andronovo>Tagar which are R1a1 and equally (post#27) from the Steppes; No Neolithic corpse from Europe (i.e. via Anatolia/Near East) has yet been tested to be R1a; That is why [for now] i doubt anything other than the North Caucasus route (Steppes/Indo-Europeans) for R1a M417 splits;

But again this will only be very clear when the ultimate tests and results of all the corpses from Yamna/Catacomb (Wilde et al 2014), Eulau (Corded-ware), Andronovo/Tagar and even the Xiaohe (Tarim Basin / 7 R1a1a) will be known; In 2007 Cruciani postulated that E-V13 did not expand into Europe before 5.300 years ago (i.e. 3.300BC) - four years later they found a corps from the Neolithic as far west in Europe as the Avellaner-cave which was E-V13 at ~5.000BC; Its always the corpses that will ultimately reveal the story;