Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[Goga]

However as for the route to Europe;
I am sticking to what i said in the other thread and that its always the corpses that do the talking; The first R1a in Europe is (so far) Eulau (Corded-ware) i.e. from the Steppes than there are the corpses of Andronovo>Tagar which are R1a1 and equally (post#27) from the Steppes; No Neolithic corpse from Europe (i.e. via Anatolia/Near East) has yet been tested to be R1a; That is why [for now] i doubt anything other than the North Caucasus route (Steppes/Indo-Europeans) for R1a M417 splits

But R1a1 in Andronovo horizon can be from the Iranian Plateau, since R1a* evolved around Iran and Eastern Turkey (Kurdistan). According to this paper this region is the 'urheimat' of R1a*. Like I said, this map is showing exactly the same, that before original R1a* from the Iranian Plateu entered Europe it migrated into the Central Asia first. But on ther side of the mirror, R1b entered Europe via the Caucasus.

 

[Silesian]

Thank you VERY much. Especially for this : "J2-M172 is the main Iranian haplogroup (22.5%), almost entirely (92.9%) represented by J2a-M410 sub-clades."

There is not much J2-M172 in Hindu-Kush

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748#pone.0076748.s014

R1b 343* Iran 1-Gilan/Medes? R1b 343* Tajik-2, R1b 343* Uzbek
1 R-M207 in Kyrgyz

 

[Goga]

There is not much J2-M172 in Hindu-Kush

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748#pone.0076748.s014

R1b 343* Iran 1-Gilan/Medes? R1b 343* Tajik-2, R1b 343* Uzbek
1 R-M207 in Kyrgyz

Yeah R1b 343* can be from The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) or Yaz, which are currently located in Turkmenistan. According to some people proto-Iranian was born in BMAC! And that the Medes are from 'YAZ'. It's possible, becasue around BMAC there's lots of J2a (what gave ERGATIVITY construction to Iranic languages) and R1a. If that's true, R1b 343* could be also part of proto-Iranic speakers or original Medes! But R1b 343* could also migrate from SouthWest of the Caspian Sea into 'Yaz or BMAC' later after proto-Iranic was formed.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Yeah R1b 343* can be from The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) or Yaz, which are currently located in Turkmenistan. According to some people proto-Iranian was born in BMAC! And that the Medes are from 'YAZ'. It's possible, becasue around BMAC there's lots of J2a (what gave ERGATIVITY construction to Iranic languages) and R1a. If that's true, R1b 343* could be also part of proto-Iranic speakers or original Medes! But R1b 343* could also migrate from SouthWest of the Caspian Sea into 'Yaz or BMAC' later after proto-Iranic was formed.

this doesn't fit , R1b 343 is much older than Andronovo/BMAC

 

[Nobody1]

But R1a1 in Andronovo horizon can be from the Iranian Plateau, since R1a* evolved around Iran and Eastern Turkey (Kurdistan). According to this paper this region is the 'urheimat' of R1a*. Like I said, this map is showing exactly the same, that before original R1a* from the Iranian Plateu entered Europe it migrated into the Central Asia first. But on ther side of the mirror, R1b entered Europe via the Caucasus.

That is exactly what i already tried to illustrate on post#27;
There is no Archaeological basis (cultural continuities) for the model on that map i.e. no traces of a migration from the Iranian plateau into the steppes; On the other hand there is plenty of migrations/movements (archaeologically attested) from the steppes expanding into the south and east (with a clear continuity) - post#27;

That the Iranian plateau is the Urheimat of R1a* might def. be true but it would be more helpful to know the exact Urheimat of R1a-M417 and to what R1a the corpses of Yamna/Catacomb/Andronovo and Xiaohe belonged to;

 

[LeBrok]

That is exactly what i already tried to illustrate on post#27;
There is no Archaeological basis (cultural continuities) for the model on that map i.e. no traces of a migration from the Iranian plateau into the steppes; On the other hand there is plenty of migrations/movements (archaeologically attested) from the steppes expanding into the south and east (with a clear continuity) - post#27;

That the Iranian plateau is the Urheimat of R1a* might def. be true but it would be more helpful to know the exact Urheimat of R1a-M417 and to what R1a the corpses of Yamna/Catacomb/Andronovo and Xiaohe belonged to;

Oh, but this would destroy Goga's philosophy of purity and originality of IE Kurds. He can't accept this, his world would collapse.

 

[LeBrok]

But R1a1 in Andronovo horizon can be from the Iranian Plateau, since R1a* evolved around Iran and Eastern Turkey (Kurdistan). According to this paper this region is the 'urheimat' of R1a*. Like I said, this map is showing exactly the same, that before original R1a* from the Iranian Plateu entered Europe it migrated into the Central Asia first. But on ther side of the mirror, R1b entered Europe via the Caucasus.

Nobody here is disputing that R1a originated in the spot shown on this map, it probably did. But it doesn't mean there was anything even resembling of IE or Indo-Iranians, or even proto-proto Indo Europeans culture and language back then. This origin happened about 20 thousand years ago or so. That's about 15 thousand years between first R1a and first glimpse of Indo-Iranians of Andronovo culture (Z93). 15 k years it is a very long time and many things happened that we don't even know. From archeology and written historical records we know that Indo-Iranians came from the steppe and moved to South Asia, Kurdistan included. These IIs from north brought II language and culture to original (non IIs) inhabitants of Kurdistan. Before that there were no Indo-Iranians tribes in South and South/West Asia.

 

[Taranis]

Indo-Iranian (proto-Aryan) and ancient Iranic (Aryan) languages were ERGATIVE languages. Other Indo-European languages are NOT ERGATIVE at all. Ergativity among language of the (proto-)Aryans evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau or Caucasus, period! And NOT at places where ERGATIVITY doesn't exist.

You're completely wrong here. The oldest Indo-Iranian languages that we know, Vedic Sanskrit and Avestan (the language of Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of Persia), show no signs of ergativity. The split-ergativity that you can find in modern Hindi-Urdu must be late innovation, not an original feature. You're also forgetting about the Nuristani languages (which, as you may know, form a third branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, alongside of Indic and Iranic), which likewise show no sign of ergativity. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is much more suitable than the Iranian plateau for a Proto-Indo-Iranic homeland. You also have the case of the Burushaski language which appears to have had early Indo-European contact.

More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!

The problem with Gamkrelidze's and Ivanov's scenario is that they somehow assume that Armenian is particularly representative of Proto-Indo-European whereas in reality there's no particular reason to assume so, on the contrary: Armenian has a Hurro-Urartian substrate (meaning that Hurro-Urartian was one of the languages spoken there before speakers of Proto-Armenian arrived there, and I would also like to point out that the Biblical name "Ararat" is very probably derived from "Urartu"), and there is no evidence for Indo-European/Hurro-Urartian contact in the other branches.

Aside from Whittaker's claims (which are far out, in my opinion), there's no evidence that Proto-Indo-Europeans had early contact with speakers of Sumerian. In my opinion, the only language families that can be safely assumed to have had very early contact with Proto-Indo-European speakers are Kartvelic (ie. Georgian) and Uralic.

 

[Aberdeen]

Because as we can read according to this paper R1a* was born in Kurdistan. In Kurdistan we can find ALL kind of R1a. From the more recent East European TYPES (from Cimmerians??) to recent Central Asian types (from Parthians). So there was a BACK-migration of R1a into Kurdistan! http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html
.

The paper mentions a few modern samples of R1a in Turkey and eastern Iran as "proof" that R1a originated in Turkey, but I don't believe that modern samples prove much of anything, given how much people have moved around in that part of the world. But even if that conclusion is correct, the same paper estimates R1a as being about 25,000 years old and the major split as being about 5800 years old. So the original development of R1a has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans and most archeologists who've studied that part of the world estimate the incursion of IE folk from central Asia as happening around 3000-3500 years ago. So clearly the Iranian languages developed to the north. To characterize that as "back migration" takes a considerable stretch of the imagination, IMO.

LeBrok and Nobody1 have already addressed a lot of the problems with your theory, but I'm going to suggest that you include time frames with any claims you make, rather than mashing together different cycles of events that happened thousands of years apart. And I'm sure you've read the theories about the Andronovo cultural horizon as a precurser to the Iranians, and of the 10 remains from that time period that were successfully tested for Y DNA, 9 were R1a. Anyone from Iran and central Asia is a result of thousands of years of mixing, and the archeological record shows the earliest chariots and a lot of metallurgical development happening further north than you want it to be.

 

[Aberdeen]

It was not an invasion of original the R1a into the Steppes, but an unharmed settlement of Semi Nomads in Central Asia. Also, Medes NEVER invaded Persia or Kurdistan. The Medes INVADED Mesopotamia FROM Kurdistan Zagros Mountains. Homeland of the Medes was Zagros, and from Zagros they INVADED Babylon

What the Medes did during the historic period has nothing to do with their origins. And, as has already been said, the origins of R1a have nothing to do with the origins of Iranic culture, which happened thousands of years later. There weren't any "Semi Nomads" during the Paleolithic. Let's keep the time frame straight.

 

[Alan]

In my opinion the two most likely places of R1a origin are.

1. Western Asia, between Iran, Transcaucasus ("Eastern Anatolia")/ Northern Mesopotamia. R1a among Kurds for example is not exclusively z93. But also z83 and m420.

2. Between Central and South Asia. Kalash have a high diversity of R* clades but lack R1b.

In those two parts of the world R1a* is pretty diverse. I believe there was a bigger connection between South_Central Asia and the Caucasus as it is nowadays. I sometimes have the feeling that R1a* could have evolved in South_Central Asia and from there moved into West Asia, and frothere further into the Caucasus ultimately into the Steppes.

 

[Alan]

One problem I would like to point out for the Median Empire: its been over 2500 years since, and many empires were established in the same area centuries later: the first Persian Empire, Alexander's Empire and its successor states, the Parthian and second Persian Empire, the Islamic Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, the Mongol Empire and Timur's empire. Median rule itself was relatively shortlived compared to some of the later empires (including the first Persian Empire that followed it) that occupied the same area, and half of these (definitely the Islamic conquests of the 7th/8th century, and in particular the Mongol conquests) were accompanied by a massive loss of life. Its enough time and enough history in the meantime to murk genetic traces of any particular ethnic group that ruled that area in the past.

The Parthians were basically the Medes with an early Scythian Elite. There language, culture and historical records suggest this.

 

[Alan]

That's ok, because we are not talking about local population replacement, but only about IE invasion and ruling of this area for over 2,000 years. In this time period the invaders managed to mix about 10% of their Y haplogroup to the local pool. Means more cultural influence than genetic.

I'm not sure about R1b. Some might belong to much earlier R1b tribes movements, and some to IE Hittites? Or maybe it was Z93 people who picked up some R1b tribes and made them the first R1b IEs?

The Median empire shown in the map, was a confederation which included some other Iranic, Indo European and non Indo European tribes. If the R1a richest places of this world do not exceed 60%, I doubt that Medes were exclusively or predominalty R1a* by any meaning. I see the Medes as a quite mix of R1a, J*, R1b, G2a and likely I.

 

[Silesian]

Yeah R1b 343* can be from The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) or Yaz, which are currently located in Turkmenistan. According to some people proto-Iranian was born in BMAC! And that the Medes are from 'YAZ'. It's possible, becasue around BMAC there's lots of J2a (what gave ERGATIVITY construction to Iranic languages) and R1a. If that's true, R1b 343* could be also part of proto-Iranic speakers or original Medes! But R1b 343* could also migrate from SouthWest of the Caspian Sea into 'Yaz or BMAC' later after proto-Iranic was formed.

Very possible. About what time frame would you actually put the split between Median language and Avestan.

Median is only attested by numerous loanwords in Old Persian. Nothing is known of its grammar, "but it shares important phonological isoglosses with Avestan, rather than Old Persian." "Under the Median rule [...] Median must to some extent have been the official Iranian language in western Iran.^[4]

How many generations if calculated a generation at @30+/- years?
Conjecturing the whole invasion and spread of PIE was in the neighborhood of 200+/- generations.

Very interesting video and a good challenge to the Russian invasion theory. No chariots and no account of invasion in Vedict according to Nicholas Kazanas challenge to Kurgan. Also how do you explain the similarities of these invaders taking the religion/gods/myths like Aruna and Varuna by two distinct separate invading I.E. groups one ended up in Hittite, and one in Vedic, from Kurgan or Volga region?

In Vedic religion, Varuna (Sanskrit Varuṇa वरुण, Malay: Baruna) or Waruna, is a god of the water and of the celestial ocean, as well as a god of law of the underwater world. A Makara is his mount. In Hindu mythology, Varuna continued to be considered the god of all forms of the water element, particularly the oceans.

Aruna is a sea god in Hittite mythology, a son of the healing and magic goddess Kamrusepa.^[1] Aruna is also the Hittite word for "sea", and like Kamrusepa may also refer to the god of the sea.

Any comments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSDcHR5WZA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsqMWj0WFKc

 

[Goga]

You're completely wrong here. The oldest Indo-Iranian languages that we know, Vedic Sanskrit and Avestan (the language of Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of Persia), show no signs of ergativity. The split-ergativity that you can find in modern Hindi-Urdu must be late innovation, not an original feature. You're also forgetting about the Nuristani languages (which, as you may know, form a third branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, alongside of Indic and Iranic), which likewise show no sign of ergativity. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is much more suitable than the Iranian plateau for a Proto-Indo-Iranic homeland. You also have the case of the Burushaski language which appears to have had early Indo-European contact.

Wrong, wrong and wrong! Avestan was a language of Zoroastians and the Medes. Zoroastrianism was a state religion of the Medes. Zoroastrian books were written in Avestan. There is an ergativity in Avestan AND Sanscrit! Everything about the origin of the Indo-Iranian ergative construction you can find here!
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...id=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103765110727

 

[Goga]

Oh, but this would destroy Goga's philosophy of purity and originality of IE Kurds. He can't accept this, his world would collapse.

This paper and the fact they found out that Yamna folks were dark skinned destroy every philosophy of wannabe NEO-Nazi Polish wannabe Aryans. It seems that only Polish people and some people of India just can't accept the fact that they have nothing to do with the ancient Aryans. Polish people are Slavic, and NOT Iranic nor Indo-Aryan, for GOD sake!

 

[LeBrok]

This paper and the fact they found out that Yamna folks were dark skinned destroy every philosophy of wannabe NEO-Nazi Polish wannabe Aryans. It seems that only Polish people and some people of India just can't accept the fact that they have nothing to do with the ancient Aryans. Polish people are Slavic, and NOT Iranic nor Indo-Aryan, for GOD sake!

Keep the insults coming, and give me a reason to ban you again, this time for ever.

 

[Sile]

By influencing, I do really mean helping to form a new kind of language (dialect). And since J2a participated in evolution of proto-Iranic (Aryan) language (dialect) this process took place somewhere where there's J2a. Therefore I'm telling you that at LEAST J2a was also part of the proto-Iranic (Aryan) people. And the only 2 places where ANCIENT J2a & R1a coalesced are either Kurdistan Zagros Mountains or SouthCentral Asia. Or somewhere in BETWEEN. And NOT in the Steppes! So the Medes who invaded Babylon came NOT from the Steppes, but from Zagros (Iranian Plateau)! Capisce ???

according to Medes, their origins are from Qazvin ( basically northern Iran )
Armenians are from Lake Van ( if anyone is interested )

 

[Silesian]

according to Medes, their origins are from Qazvin ( basically northern Iran )
Armenians are from Lake Van ( if anyone is interested )

Armenian is a I.E language in its own branch perhaps with links to Phrygian. They have almost no R1a or very little. What I would really like to see is some archeological evidence of this R1a invasion and conquest. For example, if chariots exist in Kurgan or Volga or wherever, is there a record of these ancient warriors leaving them in any archeological context?. Have any of these battle chariots with similar construction, been found in archeological sites like Hittites, Armenia ancient Kurdish regions, or areas known as Mede; or even in Hindu/Kush-Northern India?

Relief of early war wagons on the Standard of Ur, c. 2500 BC

Indo-Iranian migration onto the Iranian plateau and onto the Indian subcontinent propagates the use of the chariot. Chariot warfare and population movements lead to violent changes at the center of the millennium, a new order emerges with Greek dominance of the Aegean and the rise of the Hittite Empire.

Mallory (as cited in Bryant 2001:216) admits the extraordinary difficulty of making a case for expansions from Andronovo to northern India, and that attempts to link the Indo-Aryans to such sites as the Beshkent and Vakhsh cultures "only gets the Indo-Iranian to Central Asia, but not as far as the seats of the Medes, Persians or Indo-Aryans". However he has also developed the "kulturkugel" model that has the Indo-Iranians taking over BMAC cultural traits but preserving their language and religion while moving into Iran and India.

This must also then include the Kurdish regions.

 

[LeBrok]

Armenian is a I.E language in its own branch perhaps with links to Phrygian. They have almost no R1a or very little. What I would really like to see is some archeological evidence of this R1a invasion and conquest. For example, if chariots exist in Kurgan or Volga or wherever, is there a record of these ancient warriors leaving them in any archeological context?. Have any of these battle chariots with similar construction, been found in archeological sites like Hittites, Armenia ancient Kurdish regions, or areas known as Mede; or even in Hindu/Kush-Northern India?

Relief of early war wagons on the Standard of Ur, c. 2500 BC

This must also then include the Kurdish regions.

I think these are so called War Wagons. When I look at tails of these "horses" they remind me of a donkey tail. They might be heavy war wagons meant to break enemy lines perhaps. Still formidable war machines, but they are not chariots.

Chariots are very light and fast:

The wheel is spoked therefore very light. Wagons wheels were full wood and heavy.
One can spot some technological development and improvements over the war wagon.

Having said that I'm still looking for a good explanation why chariots were so formidable weapon as people claim? Why not sit just on a horse and shoot a bow? They will be faster, less expensive and one archer per horse.
Perhaps the composite (small) bow wasn't invented yet and big bows were impossible to shoot from horseback? Although I'm sure American Indians did this trick.