Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[Silesian]

The wheel is spoked therefore very light. Wagons wheels were full wood and heavy. One can spot some technological development and improvements over the war wagon.

Was this the prime advantage that R1a had in conquest and expansion from Kurgan Volga or was there a different PIE like Goga suggests?

Having said that I'm still looking for a good explanation why chariots were so formidable weapon as people claim? Why not sit just on a horse and shoot a bow?

Good point. Perhaps even a horseman with a spear and shield would be a formidable opponent to a charioteer .

Kurds are sometimes associated with mountainous terrain. It seems that it would be a stretch that an invading force of R1a warriors could use a war chariot in some of the regions in ancient Kurdistan/Mede.

 

[Goga]

Keep the insults coming, and give me a reason to ban you again, this time for ever.

I got a personal attack from you FIRST! I've got the feeling that you are provoking me purposefully. My personal 'philosophy' was never based on 'purity' etc. but on science and only facts.

 

[Alan]

contrary to some claims, The Medes were not Zoroastrians. When the Median Empire was on it's peak, there wasn't anything called Zoroastrian religion.

Many scientist do also believe that Avesta might simply be a made up language out of Medic with some East Iranic elements which were added, by Zarathustra to reach as much followers as possible. Back than the difference between Medic and Avestan would have been like the difference between British and American English. But this is only one hypothesis.

But what is a matter of fact, is that Zoroastrianism is simply a "modified" version of Mithraism.

Anyone able to understand German and with interest about this subject. should watch this online lecture of Prof. Dr. Kreyenbroek. One of the worlds leading figures in Iranistic studies.

We have evidences and historic records that Medes and other Northwestern Iranian groups had a religion which was rather different to that of the Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians even looked down to the West Iranian tribes as "infidels".

In the whole history of Iranic empires there was only one major movement of Aryans into Western Iran and these were the Medes. Persians evolved slightly later out of a fusion from Medes with Elamites. Which is evident by the Old Persian language which belongs to Southwest Iranian branch. The Southwest Iranian branch is the youngest of all and appears like a branch which has evolved out of the Northwest Iranian languages by some linguistic shifts. The only controversial part here is, whether they came from the East or West. Some scientists and even Greek records connect the appearance of the Medes with the disappearance of the Mitanni. Historic records, like that of the Achaemenids call their Urheimat "Umman Manda" and point it to a place between North Mesopotamia and Central Anatolia which corresponds to Mittanni. Some other believe they had "nothing" to do with the Mitanni but came slightly later as a second wave of Iranic migration.
To be honest I am also in favor of the first scenario (the connection to the Mitanni).


The Parthians did not came from "Central Asia" as Goga claimed. The Parthians were by majority native Medes with an early Scythian Elite, called Parni. Which is also evident by historic Roman records.

And also the Parthian language belongs to the Northwestern Group and is generally seen as descend of Medic. Parthians were Medes with additional Scythian admixture.

 

[Goga]

That is exactly what i already tried to illustrate on post#27;
There is no Archaeological basis (cultural continuities) for the model on that map i.e. no traces of a migration from the Iranian plateau into the steppes; On the other hand there is plenty of migrations/movements (archaeologically attested) from the steppes expanding into the south and east (with a clear continuity) - post#27;

That the Iranian plateau is the Urheimat of R1a* might def. be true but it would be more helpful to know the exact Urheimat of R1a-M417 and to what R1a the corpses of Yamna/Catacomb/Andronovo and Xiaohe belonged to;

This theory is old dated and is from the past century and based on the ideology of WW2.
It has been proven that this theory is wrong on many levels. Among the true scientist community this theory is dead a long time ago.
Because it has been proven many times that the kurgan culture from the steppes came from the South. Kurgans in West Asia are older than kurgans in the Steppes.

But where do you think R1a1a1 in Central Asia is from at the first place?
Because according to other scientific paper R1a1 in Afghanistan is NOT form the Pontic Steppes. But this R1a1 in Afghanistan MUST be from somewhere, the only choice left is the Iranian Plateeau. And the most recent paper does agree with that, because it's saying that the original R1a is from the Iranian Plateau.

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage inPashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity amongpopulations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward thePontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant[46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does notsupport, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3],bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288


How manytrue scientific evidences does someone need, before accepting the reality???

 

[Aberdeen]

I think these are so called War Wagons. When I look at tails of these "horses" they remind me of a donkey tail. They might be heavy war wagons meant to break enemy lines perhaps. Still formidable war machines, but they are not chariots.

Chariots are very light and fast:

The wheel is spoked therefore very light. Wagons wheels were full wood and heavy.
One can spot some technological development and improvements over the war wagon.

Having said that I'm still looking for a good explanation why chariots were so formidable weapon as people claim? Why not sit just on a horse and shoot a bow? They will be faster, less expensive and one archer per horse.
Perhaps the composite (small) bow wasn't invented yet and big bows were impossible to shoot from horseback? Although I'm sure American Indians did this trick.

I don't know about Iranian or Egyptian chariots, but I do know that Celtic chariots of a later period often had scythe blades affixed to the wheels. Can you imagine one of those things managing to break a line of infantry and run amuck? I imagine the number of casualties would be enormous by the standards of the day. And if a group of chariots swung around a group of infantry while archers on the chariots fired into the ranks of the infantry, that would probably be quite effective too. Likely chariots were only effective on open ground, but if I was an infantryman on open ground and saw some chariots coming toward me, and if there was a river or some woods nearby, it would be difficult to resist the temptation to break rank and run for cover.

As for why chariots were better than riders, horsemen weren't an effective fighting force until the stirrup was invented.

 

[Goga]

Very possible. About what time frame would you actually put the split between Median language and Avestan.


How many generations if calculated a generation at @30+/- years?
Conjecturing the whole invasion and spread of PIE was in the neighborhood of 200+/- generations.

Very interesting video and a good challenge to the Russian invasion theory. No chariots and no account of invasion in Vedict according to Nicholas Kazanas challenge to Kurgan. Also how do you explain the similarities of these invaders taking the religion/gods/myths like Aruna and Varuna by two distinct separate invading I.E. groups one ended up in Hittite, and one in Vedic, from Kurgan or Volga region?


Any comments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSDcHR5WZA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsqMWj0WFKc

Fascinating, thanks for the video.

The Medes were a pretty modern Iranic people compared to other people. When we're talking about the Medes we can't just ignore the Mitanni people. According to me the Medes were closely related to more ancient proto-Iranic Mitanni people. Hittite predate the Medes but the Hittite lived at the same time as the Mitanni people. The theology of the Hitties was heavily influenced by the Mitanni theology and their Iranic gods they got from the Mitanni.

The language Mitanni spoke was Indo-Iranian (proto-Iranic) and ancestral to the ancient language of the Medes and ancient Persians. There's not much known about what dialect the Medes spoke, because the Medes didn't left any written document. But I think they spoke Avestan or some kind of modified Avestan, not so far from the original proto-Iranic, the language the Mitanni spoke!

 

[Aberdeen]

This theory is old dated and is from the past century and based on the ideology of WW2.
It has been proven that this theory is wrong on many levels. Among the true scientist community this theory is dead a long time ago.
Because it has been proven many times that the kurgan culture from the steppes came from the South. Kurgans in West Asia are older than kurgans in the Steppes.

..............

Care to cite some sources for that? And what does that have to do with the origins of R1a thousands of years earlier? Please quit jumbling together different time frames.

 

[Nobody1]

This theory is old dated and is from the past century and based on the ideology of WW2.
It has been proven that this theory is wrong on many levels. Among the true scientist community this theory is dead a long time ago.

Really???

David W. Anthony - The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2010) - [Princeton Uni.]
I believe with many others that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was located in the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas in what is today southern Ukraine and Russia. The case for a steppe homeland is stronger today than in the past partly because of dramatic new archaeological discoveries in the steppes.

Note that it is from 2010 and i can only recommend that you read this great new book; You might also have noticed that the two other sources i provided on post#27 are from 1995 and 2003 hardly the last century or the WWII era; And no one is talking about the Kurgan (archaeological) complex on its own but of the entire cultural/industrial continuity (archaeologically attested) of waves expanding both West and East from the steppes;

I have not seen you provide any info on what archaeological continuity (evidence of migrations) existing from the Iranian-plateau into steppes - i.e. the reverse route; So far your only source was a drawn map with colorful blue arrows on it;

And should i remind you of the Indo-European Scythian and Cimmerian migrations of the later period again? where they came from, what route they took, Nineveh, Saka etc. etc.

But where do you think R1a1a1 in Central Asia is from at the first place?
Because according to other scientific paper R1a1 in Afghanistan is NOT form the Pontic Steppes. But this R1a1 in Afghanistan MUST be from somewhere, the only choice left is the Iranian Plateeau. And the most recent paper does agree with that, because it's saying that the original R1a is from the Iranian Plateau.

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage inPashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity amongpopulations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward thePontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant[46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does notsupport, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3],bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288

How manytrue scientific evidences does someone need, before accepting the reality???

Yes;
And that is exactly what is already being discussed in this thread concerning Underhill et al 2014: West being Z282 (of which M458 is a downstream) and the East being Z93;

I can repeat - i do not doubt but def. agree with Underhill in that 'R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey' but that does not exclude a trans-Caucasus migration (i.e. into the steppes) of downstream M417 and the splits of Z282 and Z93; And also repeating myself it ultimately all depends on the ancient corpses themselves; Like those from Andronovo/Tagar (already known as R1a) but what their specific clades are in order to really understand the Z93 distribution;

 

[Goga]

Really???

David W. Anthony - The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2010) - [Princeton Uni.]
I believe with many others that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was located in the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas in what is today southern Ukraine and Russia. The case for a steppe homeland is stronger today than in the past partly because of dramatic new archaeological discoveries in the steppes.

Note that it is from 2010 and i can only recommend that you read this great new book; You might also have noticed that the two other sources i provided on post#27 are from 1995 and 2003 hardly the last century or the WWII era; And no one is talking about the Kurgan (archaeological) complex on its own but of the entire cultural/industrial continuity (archaeologically attested) of waves expanding both West and East from the steppes;

I have not seen you provide any info on what archaeological continuity (evidence of migrations) existing from the Iranian-plateau into steppes - i.e. the reverse route; So far your only source was a drawn map with colorful blue arrows on it;

And should i remind you of the Indo-European Scythian and Cimmerian migrations of the later period again? where they came from, what route they took, Nineveh, Saka etc. etc.

It seems that David W. Anthony is some kind of the Messiah of you guys and his book is a bible for you. HAHAHAHA There're many more writers that wrote totally different things of what he wrote. And David W. Anthony is just repeating what Marija Gimbutas said many years before. He doesn't add anything new to the story!


First of all, North of the Caspian Sea is NOT Russia but Kazakhstan. And NorthEast of the Black Sea was actually land of the Adygeans (Maykop), before Russians took it away from them.

Why do you IGNORE the Maykop Culture?
It has been shown and proven MANY times the Maykop culture heavily influenced people in the Steppes. Do I need to show it to you again?
And the people of the Maykop came from the South It has been proven and even the founder of this site believes that there was actually a migration out of West Asia in to the Steppes. Why do you also IGNORE R1b folks? They did actually came from west Asia and migrated into Europe via Northern Caucasus not so long time ago. So there was AT LEAST 1 migration (R1b) from West Asian into the Steppes!


1. Btw, OLDEST Kurgan to date is Göbekli Tepe (in West Asia)!

2. Btw, I don't undrstantwhat you’re saying about Scythians and Cimmerians. What you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. How old are you?? There're lot's of uncentanty around the Cimmerians. Scythians came from the East (Central Asia) before they migrated into the Pontic Caspian Steppes. Scythians were East Iranic people, while Kurds are WEST Iranic peoples...

 

[Goga]

Yes;
And that is exactly what is already being discussed in this thread concerning Underhill et al 2014: West being Z282 (of which M458 is a downstream) and the East being Z93;

I can repeat - i do not doubt but def. agree with Underhill in that 'R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey' but that does not exclude a trans-Caucasus migration (i.e. into the steppes) of downstream M417 and the splits of Z282 and Z93; And also repeating myself it ultimately all depends on the ancient corpses themselves; Like those from Andronovo/Tagar (already known as R1a) but what their specific clades are in order to really understand the Z93 distribution;

Where do you think that Z282 in Europe is actually from? From the sky? Underhill et al 2014 is clearly showing that the ancestor of Z282 lived in West Asia.

 

[Goga]

And what does that have to do with the origins of R1a thousands of years earlier? Please quit jumbling together different time frames.

Why don't you understand it? What makes it so difficult for you? Because daddy of East European R1a lived in (and comes from) West Asia. auDNA of the original R1a* was then most likely partly 'Gedrosia' / partly 'Caucasus'. If R1a spoke language of his daddy that means that his language is also from West Asia. But if R1a spoke language of his mother, that would mean that R1a in Europe has nothing to do with R1a of his father, and also nothing to do with R1b and all other R1* sublclades.

 

[Aberdeen]

Why don't you understand it? What makes it so difficult for you? Because daddy of East European R1a lived in (and comes from) West Asia. auDNA of the original R1a* was then most likely partly 'Gedrosia' / partly 'Caucasus'. If R1a spoke language of his daddy that means that his language is also from West Asia. But if R1a spoke language of his mother, that would mean that R1a in Europe has nothing to do with R1a of his father, and also nothing to do with R1b and all other R1* sublclades.

So, cite me one modern published author who puts the origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans in Iran. And explain how that lead to people in countries as far apart as Ireland and India speaking related languages. A few samples of R1a proves nothing when the linguistic and archeological evidence supports a steppe origin for Indo-Europeans. There are problems with explaining exactly how Armenian and Kurdish came into being, but let's remember that Central Asia was predominantly Iranian until the Turks moved in, and that appears to be because Central Asia was the original Iranian homeland.

 

[Silesian]

The Medes were a pretty modern Iranic people compared to other people. But I think they spoke Avestan or some kind of modified Avestan, not so far from the original proto-Iranic, the language the Mitanni spoke!

Are these entries correct with regards the Medes, Magi, Zoroaster and the Behistun Inscription being the earliest attestation of the term Magi ?

Magi (/ˈmeɪdʒaɪ/; Latin plural of magus; Ancient Greek: μάγος magos; Old Persian: ������������������������ maguš, Persian: مُغ‎ mogh; English singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean; Kurdish: manji) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BC, to denote followers of Zoroastrianism or Zoroaster. The earliest known usage of the word Magi is in the trilingual inscription written by Darius the Great, known as the Behistun Inscription.

Was Zoroaster from Magi ?

The Avestan word 'magâunô', i.e. the religious caste of the Medes into which Zoroaster was born, (see Yasna 33.7:' ýâ sruyê parê magâunô ' = ' so I can be heard beyond Magi '), seems to be the origin of the term.

The Histories is a primary source of information on the early period of the Achaemenid era (648–330 BCE), in particular with respect to the role of the Magi. According to Herodotus i.101, the Magi were the sixth tribe of the Medians

Also Arabic sources of the same period and the same region of historical Persia consider Azerbaijan as the birthplace of Zarathustra.^[16]

While the land of Media does not figure at all in the Avesta (the westernmost location noted in scripture is Arachosia), the Būndahišn, or "Primordial Creation," (20.32 and 24.15) puts Ragha in Media (medieval Rai)

However, in Yasna 59.18, the zaraϑuštrotema, or supreme head of the Zoroastrian priesthood, is said to reside in 'Ragha'. In the 9th- to 12th-century Middle Persian texts of Zoroastrian tradition, this 'Ragha'—along with many other places—appear as locations in Western Iran.

What is your opinion of Shahrastani version ?

Shahrastani (1086–1153) an Iranian writer originally from Shahristān, present-day Turkmenistan, proposed that Zoroaster's father was from Atropatene (also in Medea) and his mother was from Rey. Coming from a reputed scholar of religions, this was a serious blow for the various regions who all claimed that Zoroaster originated from their homelands, some of which then decided that Zoroaster must then have then been buried in their regions or composed his Gathas there or preached there.^[14][15

When we're talking about the Medes we can't just ignore the Mitanni people. According to me the Medes were closely related to more ancient proto-Iranic Mitanni people. Hittite predate the Medes but the Hittite lived at the same time as the Mitanni people. The theology of the Hitties was heavily influenced by the Mitanni theology and their Iranic gods they got from the Mitanni.

I dont understand, the Hittites and Mitanni according to the Kurgan Volga theory are both suppose to come from the same region why is their religion not the same, their gods not the same their language not identical ?

The language Mitanni spoke was Indo-Iranian (proto-Iranic) and ancestral to the ancient language of the Medes and ancient Persians. There's not much known about what dialect the Medes spoke, because the Medes didn't left any written document.

What is known about Mitanni customs and where were they situated in relation to the Medes?

 

[Goga]

So, cite me one modern published author who puts the origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans in Iran. And explain how that lead to people in countries as far apart as Ireland and India speaking related languages. A few samples of R1a proves nothing when the linguistic and archeological evidence supports a steppe origin for Indo-Europeans. There are problems with explaining exactly how Armenian and Kurdish came into being, but let's remember that Central Asia was predominantly Iranian until the Turks moved in, and that appears to be because Central Asia was the original Iranian homeland.

Not really Iran, but Kurdistan (West Asia). Are the most recent scientific studies not enough for you, just look at the names ofthe writers. I'm 100% sure that EVERY scientific study in the future will cause every time for some people a micro heart attack!


There's a 'Journal of Indo-European Studies'. They have the most recent articles on Indo-European issues. J P Mallory (the linguist) is the general editor:

http://jies.org/


Russian ACADEMIC Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is still giving master classes about it!

Now YOU are jumbling together different time frames!

At 1 point this was the IRANIC world!

There’re no problems about the Kurdish language. It's very simple. Kurdish is an Iranic language related to all other Iranic languages.

 

[Goga]

Are these entries correct with regards the Medes, Magi, Zoroaster and the Behistun Inscription being the earliest attestation of the term Magi ?


Was Zoroaster from Magi ?

What is your opinion of Shahrastani version ?

The ancient Magiwere a hereditary priesthood of the Medes. The Avestan word for Magi ='magâunô'.

I think that Zoroaster was a Mede and part of their ‘priest’ class called Magi. He came inconflict with other priests (and maybe was exiled to Bactria (Eastern part ofthe Iranian world)).


Some of many Zoroastrian temples in Kurdistan.

Dohuk

This one is VERY old.

http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc822104.html

 

[Aberdeen]

Not really Iran, but Kurdistan (West Asia). Are the most recent scientific studies not enough for you, just look at the names ofthe writers. I'm 100% sure that EVERY scientific study in the future will cause every time for some people a micro heart attack!


There's a 'Journal of Indo-European Studies'. They have the most recent articles on Indo-European issues. J P Mallory (the linguist) is the general editor:

http://jies.org/


Russian ACADEMIC Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is still giving master classes about it!

Now YOU are jumbling together different time frames!

At 1 point this was the IRANIC world!

There’re no problems about the Kurdish language. It's very simple. Kurdish is an Iranic language related to all other Iranic languages.

Yes, I know there's a Journal of Indo-European Studies. Give me an example of something in it that supports your ideas. Basically, you've got nothing, unless the Russian guy is saying something relevant, but I don't speak or understand Russian. And how am I jumbling together different time frames? The origins of PIE may possibly go back to about 5800 years ago or even earlier, although there are a lot of arguments about that. But even if PIE is that old, that doesn't, of itself, place the origins of PIE in Iran, nor does it prove that the differentiation of R1a began in Iran, both of which ideas you seem to be arguing, while somehow trying to relate that to the origins of R1a itself, which is something that happened long before either the origins of PIE or the differentiation of R1a. The maps convince me that the split between the two subclades probably happened about the time that PIE split into separate European and Indo-Iranic groups and the two subclades can be related to the language split. But there's nothing to place any of those events in Iran during the relevant time frame, except for five R1a samples that the authors think are relevant. I think you need more than that in order to make the case that the differentiation happened in Iran, and if you could prove that, such a conclusion would seem to contradict the match between the two subclades and the split of PIE into different groups, because all the archeological and linguistic evidence puts the origins of PIE on the steppes.

 

[Goga]

I dont understand, the Hittites and Mitanni according to the Kurgan Volga theory are both suppose to come from the same region why is their religion not the same, their gods not the same their language not identical ?

What is known about Mitanni customs and where were they situated in relation to the Medes?

I don’t really know where the Hittites came from but they were not Iranic. At the time of the Hittites and Mitanni, Anatolian Indo-Europeans and Iranic Indo-Europeans were already very different from each other. They didn't come from the same place. I believe that the Hittites were most likely closer to the 'European' Indo-Europeans. That's why I believe that the Hittites belonged more to R1b.

Mitanni were primarily the SUN worshippers too. But the name of some their deities you can also find among the Vedic people. Mithraism comes from Mitanni, who continued the ideas ofthe Sumerian. I do strongly believe (but I have no prove) Sumerians that didn’t migrate into Babylon but stayed in Kurdistan Zagors Mountains became Mitanni. My native Iranian religion the Yezidism comes from Mitanni. The ancient capital of Mitanni is located in Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan).
They were experts in horse training and were involved in developing of very light war chariots influenced by the ancient Sumerians. Also I believe that Mitanni were related to the Kassites who invade Babylon from the Zagros mountains. http://www.ancient.eu.com/Mitanni/ , http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/ranghaya/mitanni.htm .

 

[LeBrok]

The Medes were a pretty modern Iranic people compared to other people.

I'm sure nobody here knows what the heck you meant by modern? Like technologically advanced, more than their neighbors perhaps?

We know lots about Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites because they could write. So how modern Medes were when compared to neighbours?

There's not much known about what dialect the Medes spoke, because the Medes didn't left any written document.

Do you see some discrepancies in your logic maybe?

Let me remind you that many people asked you about source of your claims, which you chose to ignore. You want be more believable, please supply some of this science you claim to embrace for finding the truth. Otherwise it is just your hypothesis and admit it is just so.

 

[Nobody1]

It seems that David W. Anthony is some kind of the Messiah of you guys and his book is a bible for you. HAHAHAHA There're many more writers that wrote totally different things of what he wrote. And David W. Anthony is just repeating what Marija Gimbutas said many years before. He doesn't add anything new to the story!

Why do you IGNORE the Maykop Culture?
It has been shown and proven MANY times the Maykop culture heavily influenced people in the Steppes. Do I need to show it to you again?
And the people of the Maykop came from the South It has been proven and even the founder of this site believes that there was actually a migration out of West Asia in to the Steppes. Why do you also IGNORE R1b folks? They did actually came from west Asia and migrated into Europe via Northern Caucasus not so long time ago. So there was AT LEAST 1 migration (R1b) from West Asian into the Steppes!

You should really read that book and others as well;
It will answer many of your questions (especially about Maykop); And you should def. also read J.P. Mallory; A very good Linguist (not archaeologist like D.W. Anthony) that does not subscribe to any specific Urheimat theory but compiles/looks at all of them (very informative);

2. Btw, I don't undrstantwhat you’re saying about Scythians and Cimmerians. What you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. How old are you?? There're lot's of uncentanty around the Cimmerians. Scythians came from the East (Central Asia) before they migrated into the Pontic Caspian Steppes. Scythians were East Iranic people, while Kurds are WEST Iranic peoples...

I know that you dont understand it you havent in the last two threads either; Scythians and Cimmerians - are Archaeologically and Historically documented no mystery or doubts surround them or their origin; The first mention of Scythians/Cimmerians in WesternAsia/NearEast is during Sargon II by the Sennacherib-letter (late 8th cen BC) in the area of Urartu; And Herodotus (IV/XII) clearly describes how the Scythians entered Media via the Caucasus from the eastern steppes;

Ilya Gershevitch - The Cambridge History of Iran:Vol.II (1985 / Cambridge Uni.)
According to Herodotus account uncontradicted by archaeological data the Scythians, after the Massagetae pushed them out of the trans-Volgan steppes to the west, penetrated into the territory of the Cimmerians and finally appeared in the Near East by moving along the Caspian shore - "having on their right side the Caucasian mountain"

If such migrations occurred in Historical times (and obviously they did) than no need to doubt the Archaeological attested trails from the Eneolithic/Bronze-age;

Where do you think that Z282 in Europe is actually from? From the sky? Underhill et al 2014 is clearly showing that the ancestor of Z282 lived in West Asia.

Not the sky but Indo-Europeans from the steppes; Corded-ware also emerged from the steppes and thats also the earliest R1a (corpses) in Europe;

 

[Aberdeen]

I don’t really know where the Hittites came from but they were not Iranic. At the time of the Hittites and Mitanni, Anatolian Indo-Europeans and Iranic Indo-Europeans were already very different from each other. They didn't come from the same place. I believe that the Hittites were most likely closer to the 'European' Indo-Europeans. That's why I believe that the Hittites belonged more to R1b.

Mitanni were primarily the SUN worshippers too. But the name of some their deities you can also find among the Vedic people. Mithraism comes from Mitanni, who continued the ideas ofthe Sumerian. I do strongly believe (but I have no prove) Sumerians that didn’tmigrate into Babylon but stayed in Kurdistan Zagors Mountains became Mitanni. Mynative Iranian religion the Yezidism comes from Mitanni. The ancient capital of Mitanni is located in Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan).
They were experts in horse training and were involved in developing of very light war chariots influenced by the ancient Sumerians. Also I believe that Mitanni were related to the Kassites who invade Babylon from the Zagros mountains.

And your scholarly sources for this? Let's not forget that the primarily R1a Andronovo culture had chariots 4000 years ago.