Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?


"
CONCLUSION
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility
[FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm] that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

[/FONT][/FONT]So, the authors are saying that R1a arose in or near the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey? I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question, as I'm not an R1a expert, nor a yDNA expert in general. I also haven't combed through the data for myself yet, although I will. So, what date does the paper give for that initial diversification? If you disagree with it, why and what date would you propose? Do you disagree with the location they propose?

[FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm][FONT=AdvMinionNormal_Rm]Then, according to the paper, about 4,000 B.C. or B.C.E, i.e. Before the Common Era, or about 6,000 years ago, is the date for the diversification downstream of 417, and according to them, this suggests[/FONT][/FONT] that these R1a lineages below 417 accompanied the demic expansions that began in the Copper Age. That seems pretty reasonable to me from a first analysis. Do the authors propose that the 417 mutation coalesced in that same area? And spread from there? And that therefore these Copper Age expansions and the Indo-European languages with which many associate them also spread from there?

I think R1a (M420) is dated to around 25 thousand years, and M417 at around 15 ky, that's plenty of time to wander up and down Central Asia from North to South, related to climate and location of herds of game animals. In this case it is not surprising to see Iran area as most diverse region of ancient R1a types. However at the end of Ice Age these R1a H-G must have moved to Central and North Asia, otherwise we would have seen more successful R1a involved in Early European Farming.

and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago.
I would claim that it is true for most but except L664, and here is why. There are clues suggesting that separation of subclade which ended up as L664 (the Western European) from M417 had to happen during hunter-gatherer stage from 15 to 6 kya, and not in farmare stage after 5 kya. The earliest L664 is found in Lichtenstein cave (dated at 3,000 BP) in group of I2a2 and one R1b individual. All lineages of Neolithic H-Gs I might add, and no EEF Y DNA. This is late bronze age already, but this group is somehow secluded (in forest?) still mostly hunting, with very very primitive farming if any or mostly herding. They were all very closely related, and still doing something in a cave? Anyway my point is that L664 comes from earlier subclades which had split earlier than S224 (IE?) from M417, therefore none IE.

occurred ~5800 years ago.
By this estimate from the paper and by circumstantial evidence, in my mind, it fits beginning of farming and Indo-European culture of S228. I suspect farming could have been brought and taught by J2a people, the early farmers spreading north. Perhaps from successful Cucuteni and Varna cultures (successful farmers and copper and bronze smelting) close by on the Black Sea. I expect it might have been a very long process (2 ky?) of Cucuteni farmers "radiating" their technologies and farming way of life (and genes) to the north and east till it was fully embraced by S228 R1a tribes.
Only after this we see Corded Ware farmers Z282 expanding into Central/North forests of europe with their copper and bronze tools. Perhaps also with new variety of Northern wheat type like Rye?
 
I think R1a (M420) is dated to around 25 thousand years, and M417 at around 15 ky, that's plenty of time to wander up and down Central Asia from North to South, related to climate and location of herds of game animals. In this case it is not surprising to see Iran area as most diverse region of ancient R1a types. However at the end of Ice Age these R1a H-G must have moved to Central and North Asia, otherwise we would have seen more successful R1a involved in Early European Farming.

I would claim that it is true for most but except L664, and here is why. There are clues suggesting that separation of subclade which ended up as L664 (the Western European) from M417 had to happen during hunter-gatherer stage from 15 to 6 kya, and not in farmare stage after 5 kya. The earliest L664 is found in Lichtenstein cave (dated at 3,000 BP) in group of I2a2 and one R1b individual. All lineages of Neolithic H-Gs I might add, and no EEF Y DNA. This is late bronze age already, but this group is somehow secluded (in forest?) still mostly hunting, with very very primitive farming if any or mostly herding. They were all very closely related, and still doing something in a cave? Anyway my point is that L664 comes from earlier subclades which had split earlier than S224 (IE?) from M417, therefore none IE.

By this estimate from the paper and by circumstantial evidence, in my mind, it fits beginning of farming and Indo-European culture of S228. I suspect farming could have been brought and taught by J2a people, the early farmers spreading north. Perhaps from successful Cucuteni and Varna cultures (successful farmers and copper and bronze smelting) close by on the Black Sea. I expect it might have been a very long process (2 ky?) of Cucuteni farmers "radiating" their technologies and farming way of life (and genes) to the north and east till it was fully embraced by S228 R1a tribes.
Only after this we see Corded Ware farmers Z282 expanding into Central/North forests of europe with their copper and bronze tools. Perhaps also with new variety of Northern wheat type like Rye?

3000BP? .............BP = before present , which means for that number = 1000BC ..............is this what you mean?

Ftdna Y has found IIRC 7 R1a-L664 from lowcountries/british areas recently............it must be far older than the Liechtenstein example
 
3000BP? .............BP = before present , which means for that number = 1000BC ..............is this what you mean?

Ftdna Y has found IIRC 7 R1a-L664 from lowcountries/british areas recently............it must be far older than the Liechtenstein example
Yes it is correct. I previously thought it was from around Corded Ware expansion, but after double checking it turned to be much younger from late bronze age.
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/on-the-lichtenstein-cave
 
Also, how do you think R1a ended up in Europe at the first place? Out of the blue? It came from the East and most likely from the same place where R1b was evolved. It's possible that there were 2 separate R1a waves from West Asian into Europe. First wave via the Balkans and second wave via Northern Caucasus or Central Asia. If you’re open minded in TRUE science and don’t stuck up in (and blinded by) wishful thinking there’re many explanations for this.

Goga, I respect you, but I'm tired by all these "racists agenda" or "ethnocentrist something" or ... - when people do not agree with your thoughts they are this kind of racists or nationalists by evidence??? nobody has the right to disagree with you? No offense, I'm not tying to "bash" you at all -
just to say my citizen opinion -
now, concerning surveys, I have my opinion: the first place of developpement of any kind of HG is not always the first place where ONE of its downstreams took off and knew a demographic "boom" (as said Maciamo and others) - when you speak about a possible Balkan trail your can very well be right, but when? the survey speak of a diversification around E NearEastern-Iran and they conclude the subsequent devloppements occurred in close places - it is not the first time that scientists built theories which break down in a puzzle sometimes after (immediate accords in the scientist sphere is not a rule as you ought to know, because reality is not always so simple) - the emigration in central or northeastern Europe could be very old, before the Bronze story - the developpement of the mountains slopes between Iran-Caspian and Hindu Kush could very well have envolved and Y-R1a and Y-J2 - but in northern and western Europe, J2 is very low when we find a lot of Y-R1a or Y-R1b: how to explain this? all of them were coming from Kurdistan?!? and every clade took is route later?
the proof of the caution we need to have is that almost ALL THE OLD FORMS OF Y AND mt DNA of some importance today in Europoids ARE FOUND BETWEEN CAUCASUS, NEAR-EAST AND IRAN to PAKISTAN, but the bearers of a lot of their downstream brothers did come in their today places of domination in AN UNIQUE WAVE through AN UNIQUE WAY, and in their supposed old cradle region, they did not settle the same place at the time neither ...?
that said, let's keep on arguing in a cool way, respecting scientists and hobbyists who can be very accute minded sometimes, more than some diplomed scholars
 
R1a-Z284 seems very scandinavian today but I wonder if it could not be a trace of Corded Ware people coming from Germany?
R1a-M458 checks more a Balto-Slavic proto-population (in fact baltic could be the older form) these clans being the descendants of war-axes Fatyanovo culture (I'm not sure of the name), cousins it is true of the Corded...? I have to look for some thread about R1a in today Germany -
have a good brainstorm night all of you - keep cool and drink fresh! the game is the salt of life, and life is short -
 
The earliest L664 is found in Lichtenstein cave (dated at 3,000 BP) in group of I2a2 and one R1b individual

Eulau (Corded-Ware) was much earlier (~2,600BC) than the Lichtenstein (Urnfield/Unstrut-group) of ~1000-700BC; But i have no idea if the Eulau R1a was L664; Does anybody know or already looked into it?

Haak et al 2008 - Eulau
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.full.pdf
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2...DCSupplemental/0807592105SI.pdf#nameddest=ST3
 


mapa1ingl.jpeg

This Indo-European migration/expansion model (of the Anatolian hypothesis) does not reflect any of the actual Archaeological complexes and their continuity; And that is largely the problem with the Anatolian hypothesis;

George Erdosy - The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (1995)
This hypothesis fits the archaeological evidence of the Pontic-Caspian steppes well, exhibiting an unbroken continuity of very similar cultures from the Early Bronze Age to the Iron Age as follows: Pit Grave (Yamnaya) culture c. 3500-2800 B.C. > Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture (Gimbutas 1956: 74-89) c. 2800-2000 B.C. > Timber Grave and Andronovo cultures, the former in the Volga steppes in 2000-800 B.C. and the latter in the southern Urals, Kazakhstan, and southern Siberia in 1800-900 B.C. > Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.. If the Pit grave culture was still Proto-Indo-European, the Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture was probably Proto-Aryan.

Edwin Bryant - The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture (Oxford Uni. press / 2003)
IE0001.png


So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality);
 
Eulau (Corded-Ware) was much earlier (~2,600BC) than the Lichtenstein (Urnfield/Unstrut-group) of ~1000-700BC; But i have no idea if the Eulau R1a was L664; Does anybody know or already looked into it?

Haak et al 2008 - Eulau
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.full.pdf
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2...DCSupplemental/0807592105SI.pdf#nameddest=ST3
Paper says that Y DNA was very degraded to infer anything more than R1a, but "people on the net say" that CTS4385 marker discovered predicts L664.
I have a hunch that these are R1a hunter-gatherers who move to central Europe before IE Corded-Ware farmers.
 

I find it interesting there are no shaded areas in the region of extinct Median language.

Linguist List Status: Extinct

> LINGUIST List Language Search

Name: Median Type: Language Code: xme Code Standard: ISO 639-3 Documentation: LINGUIST List Families: Indo-European (Indo-Germanische, Indo-Hittite) Parent Subgroup: Northwest Iranian; Northwest Western Iranian; Northwestern Western Iranian (nwir) Brief Description: An ancient language of Iran, and the language of the Median Empire. 500 BC - 100 AD.

http://multitree.linguistlist.org/codes/xme
 
I find it interesting there are no shaded areas in the region of extinct Median language.
What do you mean? Map Z93all shows 10% shading in this area.
 
There was also some back migration of R1a into the Iranian Plateau and Kurdistan. The back migration happened mostly with the Parthians and Central Asian Scythians.

True proto-Iranians were an admix between J2a and R1a.
Interestingly, you paternal line of R1a* is very ancient and probably comes from times when R1a was very young and "stationed" in area of Iran and Kurdistan between 20 and 10 thousand years ago (that's what this paper suggests). This thread is more about split of Indo Europeans, cultural diversification and migration of these groups. One of the back migrations around 4,000 BP of R1a was migration of Indo-Iranians, like Medes to Kurdistan from the Steppe, lead by Z93, the much younger clade of R1a, the Indo European people.
What I'm saying is that your R1a* is much older, probably native to the area, and none Indo-European.
It also means that IE Medes didn't replace local population in a substantial way, but conquered them and gave them IE language and culture.

PS. What is your avatar about, Illuminati?
 
So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality);
Northern-Caucasus road was mentioned in this thread few times, but I thing that this is very unlikely to be road for any population movement. In this study Underhill confirmed that the oldest subclades of R1a are found in near east. The same findings one can find in supplementary info from Myres et al.(2010). From Myres we know that R1a* is found not only in Middle East but also in France (Alpes de Huete-Provence) 2/31 and in Southern Italy 1/124. Furthermore the results from R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project suggest that R1a moved from Middle East to Western Europe( Italy, France, Germany, British Isles) and then to its eastern part, where about 5800 YBP it gave birth to majority of modern R1a lineages.
1O-R1a.jpg
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.
 
What do you mean? Map Z93all shows 10% shading in this area.

medes-empire.jpg

Compared to R1b in the region it looks quite low, don't you think?
 
matbir;428858 [ATTACH=CONFIG said:
6331[/ATTACH]
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.

One question I like to pose for the different types of hypothesis'. If I were to give you 1000+/- years and 1000+/- km where would you place the origin of your above statement?
 
One problem I would like to point out for the Median Empire: its been over 2500 years since, and many empires were established in the same area centuries later: the first Persian Empire, Alexander's Empire and its successor states, the Parthian and second Persian Empire, the Islamic Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, the Mongol Empire and Timur's empire. Median rule itself was relatively shortlived compared to some of the later empires (including the first Persian Empire that followed it) that occupied the same area, and half of these (definitely the Islamic conquests of the 7th/8th century, and in particular the Mongol conquests) were accompanied by a massive loss of life. Its enough time and enough history in the meantime to murk genetic traces of any particular ethnic group that ruled that area in the past.
 
One question I like to pose for the different types of hypothesis'. If I were to give you 1000+/- years and 1000+/- km where would you place the origin of your above statement?
I didn’t put it properly. Origin of R1a has nothing to do with Indoeuropeans, while R1a1a1 ( M417) was probably the haplogroup carried by them. If you are asking about place and time of origin it is middle Volga basin around 5500 YBP. Here is basic info.
 
I didn’t put it properly. Origin of R1a has nothing to do with Indoeuropeans, while R1a1a1 ( M417) was probably the haplogroup carried by them. If you are asking about place and time of origin it is middle Volga basin around 5500 YBP. Here is basic info.

dziękuję


Would you agree that Mede language could be related to some of the languages like in this video? If it is would the carriers of R1a 93 have carried these words from middle of Volga basin region?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuDSzgAkdyo
 
One problem I would like to point out for the Median Empire: its been over 2500 years since, and many empires were established in the same area centuries later: the first Persian Empire, Alexander's Empire and its successor states, the Parthian and second Persian Empire, the Islamic Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, the Mongol Empire and Timur's empire. Median rule itself was relatively shortlived compared to some of the later empires (including the first Persian Empire that followed it) that occupied the same area, and half of these (definitely the Islamic conquests of the 7th/8th century, and in particular the Mongol conquests) were accompanied by a massive loss of life. Its enough time and enough history in the meantime to murk genetic traces of any particular ethnic group that ruled that area in the past.
I mentioned Medes mainly because Goga is quite preoccupied with them, for known reason. Otherwise we have to look at Indo-Iranian influences over this region spanning good 2,000 years, through various Indo-Iranian rulers and tribes, till Arab and Islam expansion. Long enough time to give substantial genetic imprints, even if only talking about Indo-Iranian Z93 influence.
 
Compared to R1b in the region it looks quite low, don't you think?
That's ok, because we are not talking about local population replacement, but only about IE invasion and ruling of this area for over 2,000 years. In this time period the invaders managed to mix about 10% of their Y haplogroup to the local pool. Means more cultural influence than genetic.

I'm not sure about R1b. Some might belong to much earlier R1b tribes movements, and some to IE Hittites? Or maybe it was Z93 people who picked up some R1b tribes and made them the first R1b IEs?
 
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.
It wasn't surprising, but what surprised me the most from this paper and maps how clean the M417 split into subclades Z282 and Z93 without much of "contamination"/mixing. IE: clear European and clear Indo-Iranian parts.
 

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