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Thread: Why some people believe that Alexander the Great was not Greek when ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Using language to define ones ethnicity is stupid, today, tomorrow and in the ancient past. Language does not define ethnicity.

    Speaking Greek does not make you Greek.
    Speaking slavic does not make you a slav
    Speaking latin does not make you a Roman.

    I hope we do NOT believe that the people who speak English today, all around the world are ethnically English!

    To conclude - Alexander was Macedonian ethnically, stated Macedonian.............The Macedonian of Alexanders time has disappeared from the face of history, it does not exist, it is gone, can we agree with this instead of bringing up the stupidity of today's nationality in reference to the ancient past.
    Your statement indicates correlation and not causality. If you understand the pieces of the "puzzle" you will understand the causality as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    Your statement indicates correlation and not causality. If you understand the pieces of the "puzzle" you will understand the causality as well.
    That's quite a cryptic statement. Care to elaborate?

    As Sile has pointed out, Alexander was fluent in both Macedonian and Greek, because of his education. That didn't make him Greek until he conquered most of the known world as the Greeks understood that term. The Macedonians seem to have considered themselves to be cousins of the Greeks but the Greeks seem to have considered the Macedonians to be barbarians, although they wouldn't have said that in front of Philip or Alexander. Therefore the idea of ancient Macedonian as a very divergent dialect of Greek (or possibly even a cross between ancient Greek and some other Balkan language) makes sense to me.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    That's quite a cryptic statement. Care to elaborate?

    As Sile has pointed out, Alexander was fluent in both Macedonian and Greek, because of his education. That didn't make him Greek until he conquered most of the known world as the Greeks understood that term. The Macedonians seem to have considered themselves to be cousins of the Greeks but the Greeks seem to have considered the Macedonians to be barbarians, although they wouldn't have said that in front of Philip or Alexander. Therefore the idea of ancient Macedonian as a very divergent dialect of Greek (or possibly even a cross between ancient Greek and some other Balkan language) makes sense to me.
    He is basically saying,
    that since Alexanders father Philip II conquered Greece , then his greatness/glory made him Greek in Greek eyes...........but if he never attacked Greece, he would not be great and then would never be known as a Greek , but instead a lowly Macedonian ( barbarian )
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    That's quite a cryptic statement. Care to elaborate?

    As Sile has pointed out, Alexander was fluent in both Macedonian and Greek, because of his education. That didn't make him Greek until he conquered most of the known world as the Greeks understood that term. The Macedonians seem to have considered themselves to be cousins of the Greeks but the Greeks seem to have considered the Macedonians to be barbarians, although they wouldn't have said that in front of Philip or Alexander. Therefore the idea of ancient Macedonian as a very divergent dialect of Greek (or possibly even a cross between ancient Greek and some other Balkan language) makes sense to me.
    A dialect does not mean a different language. I do not agree that Attic Greek is that different from Macedonian Greek to a level that people from these places would not understand each other.

    Understand this first:
    "μέλλω γάρ σοι συμβουλεύειν προστῆναι τῆς τε τῶν Ἑλλήνων ὁμονοίας καὶ τῆς ἐπὶ τοὺς βαρβάρους στρατείας: ἔστι δὲ τὸ μὲν πείθειν πρὸς τοὺς Ἕλληνας συμφέρον, τὸ δὲ βιάζεσθαι πρὸς τοὺς βαρβάρους χρήσιμον." Isocrates, "Philip (6)".

    More or less Isocrates tells Philip to start war against the barbarians because it will be best for all Greeks. Clearly he does not consider Macedonians as barbarians!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    A dialect does not mean a different language. I do not agree that Attic Greek is that different from Macedonian Greek to a level that people from these places would not understand each other.

    Understand this first:
    "μέλλω γάρ σοι συμβουλεύειν προστῆναι τῆς τε τῶν Ἑλλήνων ὁμονοίας καὶ τῆς ἐπὶ τοὺς βαρβάρους στρατείας: ἔστι δὲ τὸ μὲν πείθειν πρὸς τοὺς Ἕλληνας συμφέρον, τὸ δὲ βιάζεσθαι πρὸς τοὺς βαρβάρους χρήσιμον." Isocrates, "Philip (6)".

    More or less Isocrates tells Philip to start war against the barbarians because it will be best for all Greeks. Clearly he does not consider Macedonians as barbarians!
    Ask any professors of languages and they will state that there is no such thing as a language, they are ALL dialects. The term language is only used by nations as a form of status for that nation. We still see this today......pre 2006 Montenegrin was a dialect, they then became a nation and Montenegrin dialect became Montenegrin language overnight. This is how its worked in the past and will work in the future.

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    And also recall where the house of Greek Gods, that is Mount Olympus, is at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    And also recall where the house of Greek Gods, that is Mount Olympus, is at.
    where is this sentence taking us to?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    He is basically saying,
    that since Alexanders father Philip II conquered Greece , then his greatness/glory made him Greek in Greek eyes...........but if he never attacked Greece, he would not be great and then would never be known as a Greek , but instead a lowly Macedonian ( barbarian )
    That's my reading of history, yes. In one of his speeches, the Third Phillipic, Demosthenes, the Athenian statesman and orator, spoke of Philip II as: "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia..". However, after Phillip defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338 BC, he appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks". Of course, the fact that the Greeks claimed that Macedonians were barbarians doesn't prove they weren't related, but it's worth noting that during the long war between the Macedonians and the Persians, far more Greeks fought for the Persians than for the Macedoneans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post


    That's my reading of history, yes. In one of his speeches, the Third Phillipic, Demosthenes, the Athenian statesman and orator, spoke of Philip II as: "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia..". However, after Phillip defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338 BC, he appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks". Of course, the fact that the Greeks claimed that Macedonians were barbarians doesn't prove they weren't related, but it's worth noting that during the long war between the Macedonians and the Persians, far more Greeks fought for the Persians than for the Macedoneans.
    I like you bro, I really like you ... Why you do not cite Isocrates as well, hmm, why?
    Now, to the point. Are you talking about the Greeks of the Asia Mino who at that time were under the Persian rule?

    And by the way, Demosthenes was supporting for the superiority of Athens as the ruler of the Greeks, although signs of "demise" have appeared many years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    I like you bro, I really like you ... Why you do not cite Isocrates as well, hmm, why?
    Now, to the point. Are you talking about the Greeks of the Asia Mino who at that time were under the Persian rule?

    And by the way, Demosthenes was supporting for the superiority of Athens as the ruler of the Greeks, although signs of "demise" have appeared many years ago.
    Ah, yes, Isocrates saying to Phillip "why don't you try to appease us, instead of slaughtering or enslaving us". An old man's hope for peace. And of course there were differences of opinion among the Greeks as to how to response to Phillip. If they weren't hopelessly divided in a crisis, they wouldn't have been behaving like Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Ah, yes, Isocrates saying to Phillip "why don't you try to appease us, instead of slaughtering or enslaving us". An old man's hope for peace. And of course there were differences of opinion among the Greeks as to how to response to Phillip. If they weren't hopelessly divided in a crisis, they wouldn't have been behaving like Greeks.
    Are you a historian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    Are you a historian?
    No, I'm just a simple, semi-literate woodcutter, although I have learned a lot from Wikipedia. Why do you ask?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No, I'm just a simple, semi-literate woodcutter, although I have learned a lot from Wikipedia. Why do you ask?
    I like the sarcasm ...

    I am asking this for should you were a historian you probably know more about this specific topic, this would also put more weight in your statements (and mine of course). I am not historian either. I like to call myself a lover of history though.
    Last edited by Echetlaeus; 29-03-14 at 17:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    I like the sarcasm ...

    I am asking this for should you were a historian you probably know more about this specific topic, this would also put more weight in your statements (and mine of course). I am not historian either. I like to call myself a lover of history though.
    I'm not a historian but it's something that's always interested me, so I have read quite a bit of it and even took some history courses in university, although it wasn't my major. My interest in DNA and genetics is much more recent, so I'm much less well read in that area.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ok heres a tongue in cheek theory, sort of.

    while makedos means the tall ones in greek, the etymology ia quite simple ie the "macs" by the "don" aka the clan by the river. oddly called "mac/mak"

    as the illyrians were likely indo-european invaders moreso of the celtic variety, hence albanian being related to P celtic then its not out of the question to think that the MAC'DON were celtic derived also. Did they swing around claymores and wear kilts ? maybe alexander the great was irish, Alex McDon.

    he was supppsed to have blondish hair and to be quite pale. no population that is E and J is throwing up blonde and pales.
    sorry for being a culture vulture feel free to shut me down, im no expert on ancient greek history/culture aside from what ive read on these sites over the years, and movies.



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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    He was Greek, and he did not look Irish. The artwork at the top of this page hints at what he looked like:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ancient.eu/amp/1-265/
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    He was Greek, and he did not look Irish. The artwork at the top of this page hints at what he looked like:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ancient.eu/amp/1-265/
    I think that in some of the depictions Alexander looks like the “Boss” :)

    (maybe A was from NJ) lol




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I think that in some of the depictions Alexander looks like the “Boss” :)

    (maybe A was from NJ) lol



    The resemblance is there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    He was Greek, and he did not look Irish. The artwork at the top of this page hints at what he looked like:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ancient.eu/amp/1-265/
    isnt that a depiction made some time later.

    look at it like this. the root of tall,long, big in greek is makednos, correct. well the root of that is the macedonians themselves but when you have a closer look at the etymology it more lines up with with the scottish word for son, which is "mac" and the indo-european word for river. what do we have the MACDONS.

    sons of the river.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I think that in some of the depictions Alexander looks like the “Boss” :)

    (maybe A was from NJ) lol



    nah bro in that depiction he looks middle eastern. ehhhh yeh i see some resemblance.

    did the persians make this ?
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    Last edited by lynxbythetv; 02-09-19 at 10:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    nah bro in that depiction he looks middle eastern. ehhhh yeh i see some resemblance.

    did the persians make this ?
    I have no idea who made it, but He doesn't look anything like the real Jesus.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    ive given this a bit of thought. the macedonians were not greek, it doesnt make sense. why were they the tall ones, they were obviously different from greeks.

    if they arent a remant from the indo european invasions or closely related to the illyrians then its logical to conclude they were serbs, without the R1A but R1B. perhaps that was illyrian.

    consider it like this. romanians, albanians and bulgarians are some of the shortest europeans, so we can count them out. ok we could include albanians, but not the E haplogroup ones. E haplogroup equals shortass.

    so we are left with either croatians or serbs.

    cant believe people have been arguing who the macedonians were for so long without having a look at modern pops and their current heigh and how the greeks described macedonian traits.







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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post

    so we are left with either croatians or serbs.
    So now we know where you are from.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Echetlaeus View Post
    - He spoke Greek
    - He worshiped the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks
    - His name is Greek
    - His father's name is Greek (Philip)
    - His mother's name is Greek (Olympias, she comes from Epirus)
    - His cousin was another great military genius, Pyrrhus of Epirus
    - His favourite heroes were the Argives(= Greeks) of the Trojan War, and especially Achilles
    - His teacher was Aristotle (no comments for that)
    .
    .
    .

    And above all, why some people that are of another origin, still insist that [Slavs] are Macedonians, when it is clear by the Byzantine chronicles that these people came to the Greek peninsula a thousand years later?
    I am not sure if Alexander is a Greek name, it was used earlier by the Trojan Prince Paris, who was also called Aleksander.....as far as I recall he was the only Alexander in the Iliad. This reason alone raises a lot of doubt on the Macedonian And Greek connection.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)


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    Alexander was a Greek from Macedon.

    Everybody knows that.

    No need to Consult the Mystic Oracle of Google for a link.

    Alexander would have certainly agreed with everything I said.
    Last edited by Salento; 04-09-19 at 06:29.

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